Why can't the Irish (schools) teach their children how to speak?

HavingCrack · 15-07-2011 07:55PM

OP, I have no desire to sound like a Wimbledon commentator. Every English speaking country has a different accent leading to different pronounciations of words, who are you to decide which is the correct form? Living in America I'm constantly told (by Russians of all people) that pronouncing one as "w-un" is incorrect and it's actually w-an. The same applies to funn-y which is apparently fann-y etc. It gets very annoying very quickly.

Raic · 15-07-2011 08:01PM

Teyla Emmagan wrote: »

You big suck up Raic...:D

:pac:

Teyla Emmagan wrote: »

And THIS is even worse!:

think - fink
Keith - Keif
thanks - fanks

Whilst I can understand why people might find this pronunciation of a voiceless "th" annoying it's still just a feature of a specific dialect when it comes down to it. I can't see a reason to consider it as "worse" (in an objective sense based on quality) than using another pronunciation common amongst another group of native speakers.

Some might argue that it's a simplification of the language as you're "losing" a sound (my merging f and voiceless "th")... but this has happened repeatedly throughout the history of English. English isn't an inflected language any more (except in a few case) and we've lost plenty of sound distinctions over time (like the whine-wine merger I mentioned earlier). I support linguistic diversity in this way. Is the English we speak now any "less" of a language that that spoken 1000 years ago? No, it's just different. A lot of the English we speak now would originally have been considered sub-standard and is derived from grammatical "mistakes"... How many people now try to pronounce the "th" in the middle of the word "clothes"? This is a spelling pronunciation, that is, basing a pronunciation on a spelling when the traditional (like "close", the verb, rhyming with "rose") pronunciation is different. Languages evolve and today’s mistakes and dialectical usages are tomorrow's standard usage.

Unfortunately (from my point of view), few people seem to share my outlook on this matter.

Liam Byrne · 15-07-2011 08:07PM

Raic wrote: »

It's a linguistic term; a voiceless "th" is the one you hear in the word "think" and a voiced "th" is the one you hear in the word "there".

Sorry, but I still can't figure out what you mean.....the "th" in both of those words is identical to my mind.

uriah · 15-07-2011 08:16PM

Bigcheeze wrote: »

Hate the use of "Yee" on radio for You plural.

For some reason Yee is deemed acceptable but the Dublin equivalent "youze" is not.

And the inability to pronounce "th"

'Ye' was, in the past, used as the plural of 'you'.

My guess is that Dubliners who couldn't speak English very well thought the 'yous' (youze) was th plural of 'you'.

Raic · 15-07-2011 08:16PM

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Sorry, but I still can't figure out what you mean.....the "th" in both of those words is identical to my mind.

It's voiced when the vocal chords vibrate. It's parallel to the difference between f (voiceless) and v (voiced) and also s (voiceless) and z (voiced). Sound the words out and you'll see that you're making a different sound in think/thin/thimble than in there/then/that. This should help:

Sorry for the slow pace of the video.

jill_valentine · 15-07-2011 08:32PM

I use "Ye" because its intention is clearer than "you".

I like distinct accents and an unusual turns of phrase. Adds a bit of character. So long as it's apparent what the speaker is driving at, I couldn't care less how much they sound like me. Which reminds me, the sole exception is "I could care less" used by some Americans, which makes no sense.

Raic · 15-07-2011 08:38PM

jill_valentine wrote: »

I use "Ye" because its intention is clearer than "you".

I like distinct accents and an unusual turns of phrase. Adds a bit of character. So long as it's apparent what the speaker is driving at, I couldn't care less how much they sound like me. Which reminds me, the sole exception is "I could care less" used by some Americans, which makes no sense.

Well it can make sense if you take it as irony... but it's certainly clearer/safer to put in the "couldn't".

15-07-2011 08:43PM

Judgement Day wrote: »

Anybody else got any teeth grating pet hates?

People who, after getting banned from rail specific websites, use Commuting and Transport as a place to hide and crib about how they hate the Galway-Limerick rail line being open.

But hey, I'm permabanned from there, so I've got on with my life telling the religious and atheists on AH to shut the feck up!

As for the thread subject? Yiz are all a bunch of grammar Nazis! THankfully we don't have an equivalent to the Académie française giving edicts on high about how we speak.

English is an evolving language, and that is its beauty. Long may it be so.

pickarooney · 15-07-2011 08:53PM

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Sorry, but I still can't figure out what you mean.....the "th" in both of those words is identical to my mind.

The voiced/voiceless distinction is a basic principle of phonetics/phonology. It's the distinction between minimal pairs such as p/b, k/g, s/z, t/d where in the first subset the vocal cords don't vibrate while in the seond they do. You should notice the difference when you put a finger on your Adam's apple and pronounce each pair. The 'th' of 'that' and the 'th' of 'thing' are distinguishable in the same manner.

Raic wrote: »

English isn't an inflected language any more (except in a few cases).

Nice pun.

jill_valentine wrote: »

I use "Ye" because its intention is clearer than "you".

I like distinct accents and an unusual turns of phrase. Adds a bit of character. So long as it's apparent what the speaker is driving at, I couldn't care less how much they sound like me. Which reminds me, the sole exception is "I could care less" used by some Americans, which makes no sense.

Ah Jill, you have interesting enough opinions without stealing them from David Mitchell.

jill_valentine · 15-07-2011 09:01PM

Honestly wasn't aware I was cribbing his material on this one, but I guess THAT JUST GOES TO SHOW HOW AWESOME AND RIGHT HE IS.

kraggy · 15-07-2011 09:14PM

Raic wrote: »

You might find it grating but you can't really call someone lazy for speaking a language the way they were brought up. "Th" is becoming more widespread in Ireland now but "t" and "d" dominated for a long time. You have people pronouncing English this way in places like Jamaica and Africa and I see now problem with it... it's just a dialectical variant.

Not every accent/dialect has every sound another one has and it shouldn't be criticised because of it. As I mentioned in my last post a lot of Irish people still distinguish between "wh" and "w" while most native English speakers don't... does that make all the other native English speakers lazy or wrong? No, it's just a simple variation based on where people were raised. Fair enough, you can dislike an accent all you want but you don't have a right to call someone lazy when they've always spoken a certain way, at least, that's how I see it. To me these are all perfectly acceptable variants of English, whether pleasing on the ear or not.

Indeed.

If you go to South America, the Bolivians and Peruvians pronounce the Spanish for 'chicken' (pollo) as "po-yo".

But the Argentinians pronounce it as "pojjjo", as in "po-zho".

I guess millions of people are wrong (depending on which country you wish to take sides with).

goose2005 · 15-07-2011 09:18PM

jill_valentine wrote: »

I use "Ye" because its intention is clearer than "you".

I like distinct accents and an unusual turns of phrase. Adds a bit of character. So long as it's apparent what the speaker is driving at, I couldn't care less how much they sound like me. Which reminds me, the sole exception is "I could care less" used by some Americans, which makes no sense.

But "makes no sense" makes no sense either, because sense is made of the words by the hearer's mind, not by the words of themselves.

LizT · 15-07-2011 09:49PM

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Sorry, but I still can't figure out what you mean.....the "th" in both of those words is identical to my mind.

Here
http://www.eslgold.com/pronunciation/voiceless_sound_th.html
Voiceless th

http://www.eslgold.com/pronunciation/voiced_sound_th.html
Voiced th

starlit · 15-07-2011 10:43PM

Irish, Its a useless infliction of a language, its unnecessary information that the brain registers so its hard to learn! Some are fluent at learning languages/Irish others aren't. Either good at it or not. You either have a flare for it or not. Irish is only required as a leaving cert subject for certain entries to national colleges of Ireland and jobs like the guards, teaching and the government/civil/public service.

While English speaking/grammar and spelling, punctuation and speech is more important in this day for both general life and work. Seriously, it can be hard for some students if they have a learning difficulty or speech problem. It comes naturally for some and not for others. Its practice makes perfect, some kids get it first go others it takes time but they will get it in time.

pickarooney · 15-07-2011 10:50PM

doovdela wrote: »

Irish, Its a useless infliction of a language, its unnecessary information that the brain registers so its hard to learn! Some are fluent at learning languages/Irish others aren't. Either good at it or not. You either have a flare for it or not. Irish is only required as a leaving cert subject for certain entries to national colleges of Ireland and jobs like the guards, teaching and the government/civil/public service.

While English speaking/grammar and spelling, punctuation and speech is more important in this day for both general life and work. Seriously, it can be hard for some students if they have a learning difficulty or speech problem. It comes naturally for some and not for others. Its practice makes perfect, some kids get it first go others it takes time but they will get it in time.

You managed to misread 74 posts?

jill_valentine · 15-07-2011 10:53PM

Maybe his English isn't too hot.

deise go deo · 15-07-2011 10:55PM

doovdela wrote: »

Irish, Its a useless infliction of a language, its unnecessary information that the brain registers so its hard to learn! Some are fluent at learning languages/Irish others aren't. Either good at it or not. You either have a flare for it or not. Irish is only required as a leaving cert subject for certain entries to national colleges of Ireland and jobs like the guards, teaching and the government/civil/public service.

While English speaking/grammar and spelling, punctuation and speech is more important in this day for both general life and work. Seriously, it can be hard for some students if they have a learning difficulty or speech problem. It comes naturally for some and not for others. Its practice makes perfect, some kids get it first go others it takes time but they will get it in time.

Why cant the Irish (schools) teach their children how to Read?:rolleyes:

starlit · 15-07-2011 10:55PM

pickarooney wrote: »

You managed to misread 74 posts?

Unfortunately I did, I just read the title, thought it was about Irish the language. I read some of the posts but only half read them before I typed in my post only realised that I mis-interpretate the thread after I posted my post....face-palm fail!

starlit · 15-07-2011 10:58PM

jill_valentine wrote: »

Maybe his English isn't too hot.

My English is fairly good, just got the wrong end of the stick, as I didn't fully read the thread! So that's what the thread is about, 'cause Irish Schools can't seem to teach kids how to read?! Oh right...

Must correct you I am female...feel like a robot ha ha ha! Robot malfunction...!

Raic · 15-07-2011 10:59PM

doovdela wrote: »

Irish, Its a useless infliction of a language, its unnecessary information that the brain registers so its hard to learn! Some are fluent at learning languages/Irish others aren't. Either good at it or not. You either have a flare for it or not. Irish is only required as a leaving cert subject for certain entries to national colleges of Ireland and jobs like the guards, teaching and the government/civil/public service.

I don't see any need for one of these threads...

LordSutch · 15-07-2011 11:41PM

Judgement Day wrote: »

I've just been inflicting Newstalk's Breakfast programme on myself and I find about five minutes is usually enough to wake me up as the tabloid presentation is so appalling. Anyway, the standard of English on many of Newstalk's programmes is bad at the best of times - news regularly pronounced as nus and today when covering the Roscommon Hospital debacle Chris Donoghue asked a FG TD whether he had tic-taced about the matter with his fellow FG before deciding what way to vote. WTF!! Why not use normal English - discussed the matter?

Anybody else got any teeth grating pet hates?

On the radio theme I happen to agree with you Judgement Day, but Newstalk presenters seem to pride themselves on speaking English anyway they like, it seems to be part of their psyche! Its all there on Newstalk, Tom Dunne for a start, J@sus where did he learn English? sounds like he's muttering words back to front most of the time, and his diction really is appalling, makes ya wonder how they got into radio in the 1st place, but then again most of them are probably quite happy with Tree (instead of three), (Dis instead of this), Thigh-land (oh dear not again), Noos (news), True-out (instead of throughout), Troath meaning Throat (heard that on Matts show), Dat (instead of that), and the rest of the sub standard English that some listeners just seem to accept & defend. Diction rules don't exist on some Irish radio stations, forget Ps & Qs, or THs, who cares??? Pronunciation is made up on the hoof & diction is out the window, > and the children tend to pick this up!

Yes, I think Irish schools should teach children how to speak properly . . . . . .

Rant over

Millicent · 16-07-2011 12:10AM

LordSutch wrote: »

On the radio theme I happen to agree with you Judgement Day, but Newstalk presenters seem to pride themselves on speaking English anyway they like, it seems to be part of their psyche! Its all there on Newstalk, Tom Dunne for a start, J@sus where did he learn English? sounds like he's muttering words back to front most of the time, and his diction really is appalling, makes ya wonder how they got into radio in the 1st place, but then again most of them are probably quite happy with Tree (instead of three), (Dis instead of this), Thigh-land (oh dear not again), Noos (news), True-out (instead of throughout), Troath meaning Throat (heard that on Matts show), Dat (instead of that), and the rest of the sub standard English that some listeners just seem to accept & defend. Diction rules don't exist on some Irish radio stations, forget Ps & Qs, or THs, who cares??? Pronunciation is made up on the hoof & diction is out the window, > and the children tend to pick this up!

Yes, I think Irish schools should teach children how to speak properly . . . . . .

Rant over

I have to say, when it comes to written English, I'm a bit of a Grammar Nazi. I am very particular about correct spelling and punctuation. However, when it comes to the spoken word, a lot of the character that makes radio so interesting is lost when you expect a standard delivery.

To be honest, I'd rather an accented (but still coherent) presenter with good insight into his/her subject than a zombie with perfect diction who is reading from cue cards. When people speak passionately, they often speak sloppily. What difference does it make though so long as they're competent and coherent?

I'd rather colloquial, interesting voices and modes of speaking than boring, paint-by-numbers deliveries dictated by classist ideas of what a "good" delivery sounds like.

dj jarvis · 16-07-2011 12:13AM

LordSutch wrote: »

On the radio theme I happen to agree with you Judgement Day, but Newstalk presenters seem to pride themselves on speaking English anyway they like, it seems to be part of their psyche! Its all there on Newstalk, Tom Dunne for a start, J@sus where did he learn English? sounds like he's muttering words back to front most of the time, and his diction really is appalling, makes ya wonder how they got into radio in the 1st place, but then again most of them are probably quite happy with Tree (instead of three), (Dis instead of this), Thigh-land (oh dear not again), Noos (news), True-out (instead of throughout), Troath meaning Throat (heard that on Matts show), Dat (instead of that), and the rest of the sub standard English that some listeners just seem to accept & defend. Diction rules don't exist on some Irish radio stations, forget Ps & Qs, or THs, who cares??? Pronunciation is made up on the hoof & diction is out the window, > and the children tend to pick this up!

Yes, I think Irish schools should teach children how to speak properly . . . . . .

Rant over

if they are understood what is the problem? , the job is to convey the message - i heard a language professor giving out on newstalk about grammar Nazism - that accents and dialects are the engine of the language , he talked about Hiberno english being loved by linguists world wide - i would image most who point out verbatim rules of grammar are of a certain age and also nerds

do not care how it is presented - once its done 2 ability and you can understand the point , what more do you need ?

jill_valentine · 16-07-2011 01:08AM

I'm not one of the shiny eyed isn't-Ireland-awesome types, but one of the things I genuinely love about Hiberno-English is the way an individual can play around with traditional sentence constructions or incorporate outdated language, for effect, emphasis or just the hell of it.

Long may it continue.

secrecy_ie · 16-07-2011 01:31AM

Rte news presenters annoy me more - stop saying 'iss-you'!!!!

pragmatic1 · 16-07-2011 01:53AM

Maybe because its not our native tongue.

Dionysus · 16-07-2011 01:58AM

mikemac wrote: »

Sure that does be the way I do be speaking

What's your problem OP? :mad:

'does be' is perfectly legitimate in Ireland regardless of the sneering undereducated plebs who think it is not. We're talking muck, intellectual muck, when we are talking about such people.

Lesson: "do be" as used in Ireland represents the continuous present 'bi', which is used to - surprise, surprise - indicate something which continues. For example, Bím i mBaile Átha Cliath ar an Satharn = I do be in Dublin on (every) Saturday.

As such, "I do be down the town" (and innumerable other variants) is perfectly legitimate in English as it is used in Ireland. I wish the ignorant, utterly ignorant, plebs who want us all to speak "received pronunciation" English would go away, quickly.

On a bad day, I'd fart more education out of my humble arse than these wannabe English morons could muster in their lifetimes. Pathetic.

Dionysus · 16-07-2011 02:04AM

secrecy_ie wrote: »

Rte news presenters annoy me more - stop saying 'iss-you'!!!!

I agree. There's a 'h' in the pronunciation of 'issue', no matter what the average British ceolán who just arrived off the boat into Ireland and is intent upon "educating" us might contend. Leaving out the 'h' (not, "aitch", obviously) is a very recent phenomenon in RTÉ News. I'd like to have the name of the historically and culturally ignorant pleb in RTÉ who started it.

Cú Giobach · 16-07-2011 08:25AM

To people who moan about new expressions, changes in pronunciation, different dialects/accents.....etc, just what dialect/accent of English is the "right" one, yours?
Should we be speaking the English of the 1990's or maybe of the 1940's, would you prefer if we were speaking like this.

Bigcheeze · 16-07-2011 09:02AM

anawfulbogey wrote: »

It is acceptable. Its actually an Old English term, the more correct translation of the Irish version and in very common use almost exclusively over 'you' in Waterford/The South East.

I don't think it's good English as most people don't use it in speech and nobody would use it in written English, hiberno or otherwise.

Why can't the Irish (schools) teach their children how to speak?

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