Why can't the Irish (schools) teach their children how to speak?

Celly Smunt · 15-07-2011 06:23PM

mikemac wrote: »

What I found bizarre was the Dubs in a chipper

Curry chips is a curry chip. Or you can order a garlic chip.
A bag of chips is a single
And a fish & chips is one n'one. Well said it wan n'wan

Doesn't happen in any other county

curry chips is right due to there being more than one chip per tray.
bag of chips is a bag of chips since you receive a bag of chips not a bag of single.
clearly the last one is idiotic even to country standards.

Millicent · 15-07-2011 06:24PM

Personally, I find that different accents and intonations on certain words make listening to the radio more enjoyable. It's better than some of the fake accents that get peddled by some presenters.

Celly Smunt · 15-07-2011 06:26PM

Millicent wrote: »

Personally, I find that different accents and intonations on certain words make listening to the radio more enjoyable. It's better than some of the fake accents that get peddled by some presenters.

i can't stand stations with the Dublin commuter accent blend.

Teyla Emmagan · 15-07-2011 06:31PM

dlofnep wrote: »

We speak Hiberno-English, not English. It's perfectly acceptable to not pronounce the th.

No it isn't. It's a hideous and lazy habit and it's REALLY grating to the ears of the listener. And it's not an accent thing, you hear plenty of people with the same accent and some of them are perfectly capable of pronouncing their 'th's.

Listening to Ian Guider on Newstalk's early morning busines show talking about the 'grot' of the economy (or lack thereof) all the time drives me out of my skull. His diction is really bad in general, it amazes me that he ended up on the radio.

kraggy · 15-07-2011 06:32PM

There is nothing wrong with us Irish under-stressing our "th's" as the letter "t", as Gaeilge, the language that we spoke before the English language was t(h)rust upon us, is pronounced with a hint of "s" in its midst.

We speak Hiberno English, the English speak a modern version of English, the Americans speak a crap version of English. What's the problem?

If people have a hang up about our tee haych's as a nation, then maybe some linguistic history is in order for some folk

Liam Byrne · 15-07-2011 06:39PM

Dravokivich wrote: »

Why don't you dictate a strongly worded letter?

As long as the letter isn't "h" he might do that after "t"

Magic Beans · 15-07-2011 06:43PM

pmcmahon wrote: »

bag of chips is a bag of chips since you receive a bag of chips not a bag of single.
clearly the last one is idiotic even to country standards.

A single is a single bag of chips, no more no less, a one and one is equally simple, one fish and one single bag of chips.

The phrases hark back to when the original chip shops were run by Italian immigrants with limited English. One and one was usually accompanied by the owner holding up the index finger of each hand in confirmation.

Liam Byrne · 15-07-2011 06:44PM

Raic wrote: »

I just don't understand why people have such a problem with dialectical usages. I think it's completely unjust to say, for example, that pronouncing a voiceless "th" as "t" or a voiced "th" as "d" is

How do you pronounce something "voiceless" ?

That "th as d" REALLY grates.....and it's not just "th", there's an advert on TV for "meedy-yor" which is downright pathetic.

Softening a letter is one thing; dispensing with it completely or interchanging its pronunciation is lazy and annoying.

It's the same issue that has led to the sickening "could of" becoming widespread.

Raic · 15-07-2011 06:45PM

Teyla Emmagan wrote: »

No it isn't. It's a hideous and lazy habit and it's REALLY grating to the ears of the listener. And it's not an accent thing, you hear plenty of people with the same accent and some of them are perfectly capable of pronouncing their 'th's.

Listening to Ian Guider on Newstalk's early morning busines show talking about the 'grot' of the economy (or lack thereof) all the time drives me out of my skull. His diction is really bad in general, it amazes me that he ended up on the radio.

You might find it grating but you can't really call someone lazy for speaking a language the way they were brought up. "Th" is becoming more widespread in Ireland now but "t" and "d" dominated for a long time. You have people pronouncing English this way in places like Jamaica and Africa and I see now problem with it... it's just a dialectical variant.

Not every accent/dialect has every sound another one has and it shouldn't be criticised because of it. As I mentioned in my last post a lot of Irish people still distinguish between "wh" and "w" while most native English speakers don't... does that make all the other native English speakers lazy or wrong? No, it's just a simple variation based on where people were raised. Fair enough, you can dislike an accent all you want but you don't have a right to call someone lazy when they've always spoken a certain way, at least, that's how I see it. To me these are all perfectly acceptable variants of English, whether pleasing on the ear or not.

Wolfe Tone · 15-07-2011 06:46PM

If its that bad turn off the radio

hatrickpatrick · 15-07-2011 06:49PM

Liam Byrne wrote: »

That "th as d" REALLY grates.....and it's not just "th", there's an advert on TV for "meedy-yor" which is downright pathetic.

Here's what can happen when you pronounce t as d

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTaKDnSIb4c

Dionysus · 15-07-2011 06:52PM

cruiser178 wrote: »

That wouldn't bother me, its the majority of the younger generation talking like spas that winds me up.

The younger generation for sure and, like, George like Hook, that awful mangler of the English language.

He tortures the fúckin' language! (and recently he was giving out about some young wan speaking the 'cursed foreign spleen' badly)

Scanlas The 2nd · 15-07-2011 06:52PM

Can't stand the presenters on Newstalk saying " where we are at.".

It's "where we are."

Raic · 15-07-2011 06:54PM

Liam Byrne wrote: »

How do you pronounce something "voiceless" ?

That "th as d" REALLY grates.....and it's not just "th", there's an advert on TV for "meedy-yor" which is downright pathetic.

Softening a letter is one thing; dispensing with it completely or interchanging its pronunciation is lazy and annoying.

It's the same issue that has led to the sickening "could of" becoming widespread.

It's a linguistic term; a voiceless "th" is the one you hear in the word "think" and a voiced "th" is the one you hear in the word "there".

I don't know the advert about which you're speaking but I think this may be the influence of American English. In American English you often find the central "t" in words such as "water" is pronounced as an alveolar flap. To many other English speakers this sounds like they're changing the "t" to a "d", but they're not really it's just a pronunciation variation that's hard to distinguish for non-natives. This does seem to be spreading to Ireland under the influence of the media. I see nothing wrong with it myself... in my opinion it's a perfectly legitimate pronunciation and it considered standard in much of America and Australia.

"Could of" is simply an error and will remain as such unless it is taken into standard usage by a particular dialect (which though currently unlikely is not beyond the realms of possibility).

FloatingVoter · 15-07-2011 06:57PM

This is all over the journalistic world - while we talk about "serious crime", "serious assault" etc. - what is a funny crime or a funny assault ?

I've heard of a serious rape being committed more than once but I'm not going there.

Duffy the Vampire Slayer · 15-07-2011 06:59PM

Bigcheeze wrote: »

Hate the use of "Yee" on radio for You plural.

For some reason Yee is deemed acceptable but the Dublin equivalent "youze" is not.

And the inability to pronounce "th"

Youze isn't a Dublin thing, I know loads of Donegal and Wexford people who say it. Ye seems to mainly be a Connacht thing from what I gather.

Anyone its a major flaw of mainstream English that there is no plural version of 'you'.

Raic · 15-07-2011 07:02PM

Scanlas The 2nd wrote: »

Can't stand the presenters on Newstalk saying " where we are at.".

It's "where we are."

This seems to be another American influence. A superfluous "at" is being added where it's unneeded but I can't see any other real arguments against this... after all, people often use seemingly superfluous words for a whole host of reasons, emphasis, for example (free gift, anyone?). I think this usage is growing and it's quite possible that "Where are you at?" and the like will become standard. I don't really have a problem with linguistic evolution so this doesn't bother me.

hatrickpatrick · 15-07-2011 07:03PM

FloatingVoter wrote: »

This is all over the journalistic world - while we talk about "serious crime", "serious assault" etc. - what is a funny crime or a funny assault ?

I've heard of a serious rape being committed more than once but I'm not going there.

"Serious" crime or rape probably refers to those where violence is part of it.
"Serious" assault is probably an assault which causes serious injury as opposed to one which causes minor injuries.

Doesn't seem to unreasonable to me, I mean I'd regard someone punching me in the fact and breaking my nose as more serious an assault than someone punching me in face and just giving me a black eye.

mikemac · 15-07-2011 07:03PM

Sure that does be the way I do be speaking

What's your problem OP? :mad:

Teyla Emmagan · 15-07-2011 07:04PM

Raic wrote: »

You might find it grating but you can't really call someone lazy for speaking a language the way they were brought up. "Th" is becoming more widespread in Ireland now but "t" and "d" dominated for a long time.

I do think it's lazy - surely every Irish person alive has heard the 'tirty tree and a turd' joke and thought 'Wow, do I speak like that? Because clearly I should look into this and amend my ways if I do before someone makes a fool out of me'.

hatrickpatrick · 15-07-2011 07:04PM

Scanlas The 2nd wrote: »

Can't stand the presenters on Newstalk saying " where we are at.".

It's "where we are."

Where's, your, head, at, at ,at, at, at, at, at
Where's your head at at (where's your head at! Where's your head atatatatatatatat)

Raic · 15-07-2011 07:06PM

FloatingVoter wrote: »

This is all over the journalistic world - while we talk about "serious crime", "serious assault" etc. - what is a funny crime or a funny assault ?

I've heard of a serious rape being committed more than once but I'm not going there.

You seem to be under the false assumption that the only antonym of "serious" is "funny". To me it seems quite apparent that serious is being used in the sense of "severe" in this context, that is, as an antonym of "mild". Some crimes and assaults can be considered milder than others, no?

As for a serious rape... I'm not going there either.

kraggy · 15-07-2011 07:08PM

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Here's what can happen when you pronounce t as d

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTaKDnSIb4c

Is that not a robbed version of a PDF file?

Lazy?

On a side not, hasn't the Irish guy gone a long way since his time in The Clinic with Amy Huberman et al?

Clinic -> IT Crowd -> Bridesmaids

Raic · 15-07-2011 07:12PM

Teyla Emmagan wrote: »

I do think it's lazy - surely every Irish person alive has heard the 'tirty tree and a turd' joke and thought 'Wow, do I speak like that? Because clearly I should look into this and amend my ways if I do before someone makes a fool out of me'.

So you think that someone should try to force themselves to speak a different way? I would have expected more cultural understanding from you as an Athosian warrior, Teyla :P These pronunciations are characteristic of multiple dialects/accents of English, not just the speech of the Irish and you really can't call someone out as wrong if an entire group of people speak this way natively. Admittedly, the English language is becoming more homogeneous these days and Irish people are often pronouncing our "th"s like the British but that doesn't make those who don't do so wrong. You might think it's lazy but I think you say that out of some misguided idea of linguistic imperialism... for me, there is no reason why the native English speech of one group of people (when it forms a linguistic continuum spanning generations) should be considered lesser than another.

Krusader · 15-07-2011 07:17PM

Duffy the Vampire Slayer wrote: »

Youze isn't a Dublin thing, I know loads of Donegal and Wexford people who say it. Ye seems to mainly be a Connacht thing from what I gather.

Anyone its a major flaw of mainstream English that there is no plural version of 'you'.

'you' is the plural of 'you', 'thou' was the singular 2nd person but was ousted by 'you'

Krusader · 15-07-2011 07:20PM

Raic wrote: »

So you think that someone should try to force themselves to speak a different way? I would have expected more cultural understanding from you as an Athosian warrior, Teyla :P These pronunciations are characteristic of multiple dialects/accents of English, not just the speech of the Irish and you really can't call someone out as wrong if an entire group of people speak this way natively. Admittedly, the English language is becoming more homogeneous these days and Irish people are often pronouncing our "th"s like the British but that doesn't make those who don't do so wrong. You might think it's lazy but I think you say that out of some misguided idea of linguistic imperialism... for me, there is no reason why the native English speech of one group of people (when it forms a linguistic continuum spanning generations) should be considered lesser than another.

Have you ever watched Eastenders, 'th' is pronounced like an 'f' in some cases

think - fink
Keith - Keif
thanks - fanks

bmarley · 15-07-2011 07:21PM

Judgement Day wrote: »

I've just been inflicting Newstalk's Breakfast programme on myself and I find about five minutes is usually enough to wake me up as the tabloid presentation is so appalling. Anyway, the standard of English on many of Newstalk's programmes is bad at the best of times - news regularly pronounced as nus and today when covering the Roscommon Hospital debacle Chris Donoghue asked a FG TD whether he had tic-taced about the matter with his fellow FG before deciding what way to vote. WTF!! Why not use normal English - discussed the matter?

Anybody else got any teeth grating pet hates?

awrite mate, why did you choose to live in Ireland...let me guess..

Raic · 15-07-2011 07:23PM

Crosáidí wrote: »

Have you ever watched Eastenders, 'th' is pronounced like an 'f' in some cases

think - fink
Keith - Keif
thanks - fanks

That's true (and I have no problem with that either), though I think it's clear what I meant (the ð and θ sounds for those who read IPA).

Judgement Day · 15-07-2011 07:37PM

bmarley wrote: »

awrite mate, why did you choose to live in Ireland...let me guess..

I didn't but I don't see what you're driving at.

Teyla Emmagan · 15-07-2011 07:42PM

Raic wrote: »

So you think that someone should try to force themselves to speak a different way? I would have expected more cultural understanding from you as an Athosian warrior, Teyla :P

You big suck up Raic...:D

And THIS is even worse!:

think - fink
Keith - Keif
thanks - fanks

Why can't the Irish (schools) teach their children how to speak?

Comments