Derrypatrick herd

reilig · 21-06-2011 10:21AM #1

http://www.independent.ie/farming/problems-of-derrypatrick-herd-serve-to-give-project-a-purpose-2801052.html

They are basically saying that if they hadn't made such a co€k up of it, then it wouldn't have been such a success. Isn't it amazing how they defend the foolish spending of public money!!

jeff greene · 21-06-2011 10:24AM

Now that is spin:D

Grecco · 21-06-2011 10:48AM

Its a stupid thing there doing;
what the hell are they trying to prove (other than its another waste of taxpayers money )

The average suckler farmer in this country beats them hands down for several reasons namely

1: he doesn't have the huge budget they have to scour the country looking for the best type of heifers yet he manages to assemble a herd of half decent to good cows

2: he is dependent on the returns from his herd so he will make sure they are all in calf/ have a calf

3: he doesn't knock off at half 4 Mon-Thurs or 2 on a Friday

enough is enough of these state quangos

JohnBoy · 21-06-2011 11:17AM

Grecco wrote: »

The average suckler farmer in this country beats them hands down for several reasons namely

The average suckler farmer in this country is using their SFP to subsidise their loss making farming operation.

I think it's surprisingly accurate.

5live · 21-06-2011 11:23AM

Isnt moorepark staffed by people with the same employment conditions but can manage to run it efficiently (even if only about 10 cows per person:D) and near what the average farmer is aspiring to do?

blue5000 · 21-06-2011 03:23PM

They've found out that Lim x Fr cows are the best, Micheal Drennan was able to tell us that 20 yrs ago.

They've done an interesting unintentional experiment on once calved heifers.

They must have a very good working relationship with their vet after so many C-sections.

They have 'discovered' that golfball grazing does not give the best animal performance.

Come on Grange get the finger out, the Irish beef industry needs results!

leg wax · 21-06-2011 04:32PM

just saw the indo i prezume the picture is from last year or are they the blue calves

pakalasa · 21-06-2011 05:39PM

You gotta hand it to John Shirley, he's around a while and he's seen it all.
I like his comment - "Neither do bulling and calving cows adhere to a five-day week."

tismesoitis · 21-06-2011 08:16PM

leg wax wrote: »

just saw the indo i prezume the picture is from last year or are they the blue calves

d father and mother headed over to d openday. i asked him what were d blue calves like he said he saw very few and those he did see were plain enough

ihatetractors · 21-06-2011 08:28PM

JohnBoy wrote: »

The average suckler farmer in this country is using their SFP to subsidise their loss making farming operation.

I think it's surprisingly accurate.

The average suckler farmer doesn't have a perfect farm and a blank check handed to them

Grecco · 21-06-2011 08:36PM

JohnBoy wrote: »

The average suckler farmer in this country is using their SFP to subsidise their loss making farming operation.

I think it's surprisingly accurate.

no thats not accurate,
a lot of farmers are in profit, its just that the size of the farm or the startup costs may prohibit them, Basically there not a bunch of wasters like that Derrypatrick shower

JohnBoy · 21-06-2011 10:05PM

key word is average.

ever take a look at the teagasc farm income survey results.

sobering reading.

bluenun83 · 08-07-2011 05:41PM

I think a couple of thing s have to be remembered when we look at this derrpatrick herd.

1. they started off with 120 heifers, which was always going to be a minefield of surpises.

2. In the forum at the open day, the lad from ICBF stated that they were going to generate a new index for suckler cows - as in the index currently in place (SBV) does not work!!!!

If the old Suckler beef value was used to select the Derrypatrick herd in the first place, then they were always starting off from a bad foot, and clearly that has shown in the fertility last year.
What you end up having is charolais cows out of CF52 that are high in overall SBV because of the carcass weightings in the index fro the beef traits are too high. You know and i know that any CF52 straws used at home are for ****ers that will be haning up in 20 or 22 months time, and not in the cow.

Grecco wrote: »

no thats not accurate,
a lot of farmers are in profit, its just that the size of the farm or the startup costs may prohibit them, Basically there not a bunch of wasters like that Derrypatrick shower

3. The national farm survey result on beef farms profitability is appauling. The top one third of beef farms are still operating at a loss, with the SFP making up the balance of their income. THAT IS FACT.
http://www.farmersjournal.ie/site/farming-Direct-payments-critical-to-beef-production-12863.html
So what happens if the SFP goes tomorrow? You'll end up with alot of lads who aren't up to speed with any of the basics in grass budgeting, fertility and breeding. Then where are we? Nowhere. They end up setting land to the dairy lad down the road, because its handier, less hassle, and a steady bit of money coming in, just like the SFP.

4. They are operating at 2.9 LU/ha, which is massive for a suckler system.
At the open day, they say they'll hit something like €850/ha this year, in spite of what had happened this year with calving, bulls etc. What does this tell you? that the stocking rate is the big driver.

I used to operate at a low level of 1.6 now i'm up to 2.22. My fixed costs are much the same as what they were at a 1.6, variable costs slightly higher, but the stocking rate is what is helping me. If half the lads in the country new that much about stocking rate and grass budgeting, we'd be half way there.

What is being said, makes sense in practice (for me anyways).Otherwise your talking complete sh1te mate.

This derrypatrick herd has been far from ideal and probably will be for a while yet, and teagasc have alot to answer to in the future to us as an industry, but lets deal with the facts as they stand, shall we?

Rant over.

Grecco · 08-07-2011 06:01PM

bluenun83 wrote: »

If half the lads in the country new that much about stocking rate and grass budgeting, we'd be half way there.

What is being said, makes sense in practice (for me anyways).Otherwise your talking complete sh1te mate.

Rant over.

Rant over and talking complete sh1te over as well
Great man eh?

Tipp Man · 08-07-2011 06:36PM

Grecco wrote: »

Rant over and talking complete sh1te over as well
Great man eh?

Ah come on now you'll have to counter his arguement better than that - he laid out a well structered answer against you - if you think he's talking ****e then respond with an equally well structered answer rather than just say he's talking ****e

I happen to think he has made some good points

bluenun83 · 08-07-2011 06:54PM

Grecco wrote: »

Rant over and talking complete sh1te over as well
Great man eh?

Good one

bob charles · 08-07-2011 07:17PM

bluenun83 wrote: »

I think a couple of thing s have to be remembered when we look at this derrpatrick herd.

1. they started off with 120 heifers, which was always going to be a minefield of surpises.

2. In the forum at the open day, the lad from ICBF stated that they were going to generate a new index for suckler cows - as in the index currently in place (SBV) does not work!!!!

If the old Suckler beef value was used to select the Derrypatrick herd in the first place, then they were always starting off from a bad foot, and clearly that has shown in the fertility last year.
What you end up having is charolais cows out of CF52 that are high in overall SBV because of the carcass weightings in the index fro the beef traits are too high. You know and i know that any CF52 straws used at home are for ****ers that will be haning up in 20 or 22 months time, and not in the cow.

3. The national farm survey result on beef farms profitability is appauling. The top one third of beef farms are still operating at a loss, with the SFP making up the balance of their income. THAT IS FACT.
http://www.farmersjournal.ie/site/farming-Direct-payments-critical-to-beef-production-12863.html
So what happens if the SFP goes tomorrow? You'll end up with alot of lads who aren't up to speed with any of the basics in grass budgeting, fertility and breeding. Then where are we? Nowhere. They end up setting land to the dairy lad down the road, because its handier, less hassle, and a steady bit of money coming in, just like the SFP.

4. They are operating at 2.9 LU/ha, which is massive for a suckler system.
At the open day, they say they'll hit something like €850/ha this year, in spite of what had happened this year with calving, bulls etc. What does this tell you? that the stocking rate is the big driver.

I used to operate at a low level of 1.6 now i'm up to 2.22. My fixed costs are much the same as what they were at a 1.6, variable costs slightly higher, but the stocking rate is what is helping me. If half the lads in the country new that much about stocking rate and grass budgeting, we'd be half way there.

What is being said, makes sense in practice (for me anyways).Otherwise your talking complete sh1te mate.

This derrypatrick herd has been far from ideal and probably will be for a while yet, and teagasc have alot to answer to in the future to us as an industry, but lets deal with the facts as they stand, shall we?

Rant over.

Are you lads working weekends now in Grange

Grecco · 08-07-2011 07:28PM

Tipp Man wrote: »

Ah come on now you'll have to counter his arguement better than that - he laid out a well structered answer against you - if you think he's talking ****e then respond with an equally well structered answer rather than just say he's talking ****e

I happen to think he has made some good points

Fair enough

Theres a difference between income and profit
I said that a lot of farmers are in profit, I never said that they generate enough income to make a living off, as it stands the majority of Beef farmers have an off farm income; you're deluded if you think that you can earn an average industrial wage with an average beef farm in Ireland.
(Your even more deluded if you think you can earn the wages of the derrypatrick shower)
As for the SFP they are entitled to it so they claim it simple as that.

Now for the Derry-p1ss-poor

Theres no excuse for the way they have ran it, all the fatalities and what not.
I know farmers who haven't lost a calf in thirty years of farming, they couldn't afford to, and they didn't have the pick of the best of cows and heifers to breed off.
If your depending on making a few quid from farming IE you have loans and mortgage on the farm then I guarantee you`ll run that farm well.
Were not a bunch of idiots who don't know how to develop a decent suckler herd. Just go and have a look at the quality of the weanlings that are going through the any mart, Never-mind Teagasc they'll try and say different but the Irish cattle are much better than what are been produced abroad.

Overpaid Semi-state/state wasters be gone!!!

Now thats a proper rant for ye

bluenun83 · 08-07-2011 07:56PM

Grecco, No one is disputing what they're entitled to, your missing the point completely.

Why is it delusional?? If it was in the journal next week you'd believe it, just the same way i would. It just a matter of who it comes from in your eyes. The BETTER farm programme has shown they can turn a profit in beef farming. Every week there is something on what they're up to. So why is this scenario any different?

[/QUOTE]

Now for the Derry-p1ss-poor

Theres no excuse for the way they have ran it, all the fatalities and what not.
I know farmers who haven't lost a calf in thirty years of farming, they couldn't afford to, and they didn't have the pick of the best of cows and heifers to breed off.
If your depending on making a few quid from farming IE you have loans and mortgage on the farm then I guarantee you`ll run that farm well.
Were not a bunch of idiots who don't know how to develop a decent suckler herd. Just go and have a look at the quality of the weanlings that are going through the any mart, Never-mind Teagasc they'll try and say different but the Irish cattle are much better than what are been produced abroad.
[/QUOTE]

If your telling me that you know farmers that have not lost a calf in 30 years or so, you're the one who is being delusional. Calf mortality is a fact of farming, end of. Its trying to reduce it and maintain it at low levels is all you try to do.

Again you completely missed my point on the index, selection process. They didn't work with the best cows in the country, in fact the cows they had probably were far away from the best cows in the country for breeding off of. This is probably the main reason for having the problems that they have THAT THEY WERE PICKED ON A TERMINAL INDEX. Where do milk and fertility fit in on a terminal index?

They don't.

bluenun83 · 08-07-2011 07:57PM

bob charles wrote: »

Are you lads working weekends now in Grange

Now how likely is it you'll get a semi-state lad working weekends!!:D

Grecco · 08-07-2011 08:35PM

Yes Calf mortality is a fact of farming but not on the scale of this crowd. And i do know of farmers who haven't lost a calf in 30 years.
The main reason for having the problems on that scale Its pure neglect plain and simple
Oh what a bunch........
I'm sorry I'm so grumpy, its the weather....

bluenun83 · 08-07-2011 08:40PM

Grecco wrote: »

If your depending on making a few quid from farming IE you have loans and mortgage on the farm then I guarantee you`ll run that farm well.
Were not a bunch of idiots who don't know how to develop a decent suckler herd. Just go and have a look at the quality of the weanlings that are going through the any mart, Never-mind Teagasc they'll try and say different but the Irish cattle are much better than what are been produced abroad.

This thing has been all over the papers since day one. Why would they be trying to ruin a thing, with such media focus and attention to detail , be so hell bent on ruining the most talked about thing on farmers lips in the last year or so?? That doesn't make sense at all. So they can get publicly shamed at every turn? think about it.

No-one is saying we're a bunch of idiots. We can all go to the mart and see cattle on sale, but what you always here is the same old sh1te about " I got 800 for that calf, she's a great cow" but you'll never hear about how many times it took to get her in calf, or how long it took to breed her in the first place.

I know i used to focus on having great looking stock. but i never looked at the output. If that cow doesn't turn around with a calf every year, then what good is she?? If she doesn't calve in febuary/march every year, what good is she?? No milk for the calf, same story.

Heavier carcasses, number of calves per cow per year, and stocking rate
they're your drivers in output and profitablity--- anything else outside those is meaningless

bluenun83 · 08-07-2011 08:45PM

Grecco wrote: »

Yes Calf mortality is a fact of farming but not on the scale of this crowd. And i do know of farmers who haven't lost a calf in 30 years.
The main reason for having the problems on that scale Its pure neglect plain and simple
Oh what a bunch........
I'm sorry I'm so grumpy, its the weather....

I'd just like to highlight that this is a discussion, and not an arguement.

Look at the figures again. I was at the open day and they gave us a full breakdown. I checked the june update on the website and the full low down is there, the bought in replacements tore the arse out of it. Again not defending, just the facts as they are.

Grecco · 08-07-2011 09:03PM

I know its not an argument, but were like as if were watching two different games.
iI do see the value in doing what they are doing but I don't like the approach.
I believe you are passionate about improvements and more than likely are ahead of the crowd. You are sharp enough to see the realities of Irish farms.
But don't be blinded by this crowds bravado, they are well educated and well paid. They should have planned for setbacks and manged themselves better.

pakalasa · 08-07-2011 10:23PM

I mentioned this before here, but why do they always insist on quotating a GROSS Margin per hectare. What the hell is a gross margin?
It's a bit like saying, "hey, I made a profit of €20K last year on my farm, if you don't include what it cost me to buy the tractor, put up the buildings etc....:mad:

"A gross margin of €856/ha is being projected for 2011"
From;
http://www.farmersjournal.ie/site/farming-Stocking-rate-key-to-suckler-margins-13259.html

bluenun83 · 08-07-2011 10:44PM

Grecco wrote: »

I know its not an argument, but were like as if were watching two different games.
iI do see the value in doing what they are doing but I don't like the approach.
I believe you are passionate about improvements and more than likely are ahead of the crowd. You are sharp enough to see the realities of Irish farms.
But don't be blinded by this crowds bravado, they are well educated and well paid. They should have planned for setbacks and manged themselves better.

The setbacks are a s a result of the intital outlay of the herd, using the best information at the time i.e. SBV. The detail of progression of the derrypatrick herd was treated like it was a mature herd and running for a for a long time. The journal has allowed the progression of the BETTER farms to be praised to the high heavans--- and why not, positive message; nothing wrong with that. Teagasc, or more specifically Grange, have had the guillotine looming over head to drop at the very mention of any unpredictable, less than favourable circumstances. This is largely due to the journal and the way information was delivered to us. I believe one of the articles was "a road to banruptcy" back in 2010.

Sure where do you think that the journal get there information from? The updates that are on the derrypatrick website. If the were saying it was a smelling roses, 1200/ha GM and we would be sceptical of them, if they weren't putting it up, we'd be saying they were hiding everything, and when they do put everything up, they're damned altogether!! We are a hard crowd to please!!

I was down in johnstown castle at the dairy calf to beef open day this week, with the clear message that these systems were not profitable. Barely a cent to be made. it showed that the profit was so sensitive to calf price and concentrate price that the 16 month system was completely unprofitable. All things being fair and equal, i'll bet you won't see a road to bankruptcy heading on that story!!! Just calling a spade a spade here!!

The journal plays as important a role in the industry as teagasc do. But this continous play on the slightest thing will do nothing for the industry except turn lads away from beef farming. The have an obligation to deliver the message in an appropiate way for us the farmer. The problem for teagasc is, that whether they like it or not, we treat that little thursday newspaper as gospel. Powerful position to be in. But in that lies the responsibility to deliver the message clearly and to the core. Things can be manipulated to sell more products, while changing the core of the message to suit.
Another fact of this whole thing It is a long rolling thing that the newspapers are in a declining market. Anything to get us in there every thursday to buy our gospel any bit quicker will do the job!! It is even so powerful that it even worked here!!!

charliecon · 09-07-2011 12:17AM

Are you discussing derrypatrick or venting against the farmers journal?
BTW I don't think too many farmers treat the journal as "gospel" , we are a little more intelligent than that:rolleyes:

bluenun83 · 09-07-2011 10:39AM

charliecon wrote: »

Are you discussing derrypatrick or venting against the farmers journal?
BTW I don't think too many farmers treat the journal as "gospel" , we are a little more intelligent than that:rolleyes:

The two are closely linked, not venting anyway!! That is for sure! Many Farmers do treat it like gospel. Sure how did Grecco get his percpetion on bad management or mortality rates from? The journal!! Prime example. This is how it looks from my perspective anyway!! Well Grecco?

Tora Bora · 09-07-2011 11:47AM

The journal bette

r farmer, is a curious animal. I know one dairy guy, touted I the journal regularly in the nineties, as a model to emulate.
Allegedly he had X stocking rate, Y gallons per cow average, only an auld MF165 , fertilizer spinner, topper, and little else by way of machinery.
His income and cash flow was eye watering because of low fixed cost, well controlled variable costs and high output.
The world and his dog who knew the farm, knew the journal only got to be told what was suitable for the real purpose of the publicity.
In sure dairy lads around the country must have thought, where the fcuk they themselves had gone wrong.
As for farmer not losing a calf in 30 years of farming.

Must be arable farmer.

blue5000 · 09-07-2011 02:07PM

I was down in johnstown castle at the dairy calf to beef open day this week, with the clear message that these systems were not profitable. Barely a cent to be made. it showed that the profit was so sensitive to calf price and concentrate price that the 16 month system was completely unprofitable. All things being fair and equal, i'll bet you won't see a road to bankruptcy heading on that story!!! Just calling a spade a spade here!!

Hi bluenun was any of those dairy bull beef systems profitable? I read a paper on it earlier and it didn't look too good either here:

http://www.agresearch.teagasc.ie/moorepark/Publications/pdfs/ProfitableBeefProductionfromtheDairyHerd.pdf

I think the only way that this beef system will work is if the meat factories are prepared to pay for leaner beef that is finished off grass. It simply doesn't pay to horse in concentrate (barley + soya!) into these sort of cattle.

polod · 09-07-2011 04:23PM

IMO grange is pure point less .......they are based on some of the best land in ireland there .........if they can or cannot make money there how could someone with poor land in west or north west make a few bob....................suckler research should be carried out in Mayo, Sligo, Cavan , longford , leitrim etc.........where most of the suckler farms are located ....how could someone possibly compare a farm in leitrim for example to meath .......it just doesn't make sence to me.

Derrypatrick herd

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