Roscommon Hospital and the lack of people who care

GerM · 07-07-2011 03:44PM

Fozzie Bear wrote: »

That's so dumb my face actually hurts from reading it. I swear to God I have a pain in my face. It is a mind bogglingly stupid statement.

I am involved in a car crash, or fall off a ladder, or have a heart attack in a town like say Tulsk or Frenchpark in central Roscommon. You are telling me I am in more danger from a 30 minute ambulance trip to A&E in Roscommon town then an hour and 30 minute (minimum) trip to the outskirts of Galway city and another possible 30 minute drive across the city through traffic to UCHG? Once there i can expect massive further delays as their A&E is already working far beyond its capacity.

Could you explain how that works to me please?? How I would be better off going to Galway and how Roscommon is more dangerous? I honestly cannot wait for your reasoning and logic behind this.

Enlighten me.......

The statistics support his comment. You're roughly 4 times more likely to die attending Roscommon than Galway in a cardiac emergency. They simply do not have the resources to provide adequate medical care. Attending Galway will save more lives than those that will be lost by the extra distance. The additional resources provided to the ambulance service will hopefully see them better equipped to get an individual to a properly facilitated A&E in time. Also, if you were in Frenchpark or Tulsk and needed an A&E urgently, you would go to Castlebar or Sligo and, whilst you obviously wouldn't be there as quickly as you would be to Roscommon, you would be there definitely in under an hour.

Biggins · 07-07-2011 04:39PM

Was the following mentioned yet: http://www.independent.ie/national-news/td-threatened-with-bullet-in-the-head-over-hospital-vote-2815332.html
If so, apologies.

TD threatened with bullet in the head over hospital vote

ROSCOMMON Fine Gael TD Frank Feighan told today how he had been threatened with a bullet in the head over his support for the government in the vote to retain A&E services at Roscommon Hospital.

The representative, who voted against a Sinn Fein motion calling for the retention of facilities, revealed today that he had suffered a lot of abuse.

“I got a phonecall from a man who said that he would put a bullet in my head. People spat at me yesterday,” he told Morning Ireland on RTE Radio.

His constituency colleague Denis Naughten, who voted for the motion, is almost certain to lose the Fine Gael whip and become an Independent TD.

Mr Feighan bore the brunt of his constituents' anger outside the Dail last night as up to 1,000 people demanded the Government fulfil its hospital election promises to maintain the hospital.

Mr Feighan was forced to take cover in Buswell's Hotel as protesters called for his resignation yesterday.

Mr Feighan said he supported Enda Kenny despite the decision to shut the A&E. "I will go by my heart and by my head and deliver what I believe is the right thing," he said.

Campaigner Mike Higgins called on him to "vote with his conscience".

Mr Higgins, originally from Tulsk, Co Roscommon, had flown from Toronto to join the protest.

"I want him to go in and remember the promises he made. Some of my family may die because of it," Mr Higgins said. "I felt I wanted to be here."

Martin McLoughlin (56), from Mount Talbot, had a stroke five years ago.

"I was rushed to Roscommon Hospital," he said. "The doctors saved my life; I was only four miles from the hospital. They said I wouldn't make it to Galway."

UPDATE: Denis Naughten loses Fine Gael whip over Roscommon Hospital vote
* http://www.thejournal.ie/roscommon-vote-puts-future-of-two-fine-gael-tds-on-the-line-171776-Jul2011/

FINE GAEL TD Denis Naughten has lost the party whip for voting against the party in last night’s motions on cuts to emergency services at Roscommon Hospital.

Last night’s Dáil vote left two TDs defending their voting decisions.

As reported in TheJournal.ie last night, the government’s decision to replace Roscommon A&E with an urgent care unit and an out-of-hours GP service was voted through the Dail by 96:46

GerM · 07-07-2011 04:55PM

I heard some quotes from him this morning on the radio in relation to being spat at and being shoved by people but the bullet is news to me. In all fairness, it took some balls to stand up for what he felt was the right thing to do. Feighan has essentially guaranteed that he will lose his seat in the next election by doing what he feels is right. Refreshing to see someone stand up and do what they feel is best despite the negative effect it will have on them personally. The FG deputy who voted to retain the facilities is looking after his own interests. The numbers and facts are there. Naughton is representative of such a large element of Irish politics. A man who entered politics and won a seat due to a family legacy following his father's death and has bowed to parochial politics to secure his future seat. His decision to go against the government and expected expulsion/martyrdom will guarantee his re-election by his constituents.

minikin · 07-07-2011 05:11PM

Sick of hearing TD's equating hospital requirements for the country with Manchester because of similar populations, as if geography weren't a factor.
Will they reduce the number of TDs in the Dail from 166 to 28 to equal the number of MPs who represent Greater Manchester?

mikemac · 07-07-2011 05:21PM

The local hospital can make or break your career.

Máire Hoctor in Tipp North was a junior minister and an up and coming member of the party.
Was sent to meetings in Nenagh to explain the downgrading of the hospital and got heckled and jeered and shouted down at public meetings. Her supporters deserted her and she was shouted at to just resign.
Got kicked out at the last election and it was not just down to her membership of FF. Tipp North was a FF stronghold for a long long time

I don't know the situation in Clare but Ennis has the same treatment so I'd imagine their government TD's got a rough time

And this goes to show what people vote for. It isn't brilliant legislation or national issues. If the minister for Health downgrades the local hospital then the local TD gets the blame

Lady Chatterton · 07-07-2011 06:29PM

mikemac wrote: »

The local hospital can make or break your career.

Máire Hoctor in Tipp North was a junior minister and an up and coming member of the party.
Was sent to meetings in Nenagh to explain the downgrading of the hospital and got heckled and jeered and shouted down at public meetings. Her supporters deserted her and she was shouted at to just resign.
Got kicked out at the last election and it was not just down to her membership of FF. Tipp North was a FF stronghold for a long long time

I don't know the situation in Clare but Ennis has the same treatment so I'd imagine their government TD's got a rough time

And this goes to show what people vote for. It isn't brilliant legislation or national issues. If the minister for Health downgrades the local hospital then the local TD gets the blame

Ennis Hospital was downgraded back in April 2009, both Tony Killeen (FF) and Timmy Dooley (FF) attended hospital protest rallies and meetings but both ended up supporting the downgrade.

Killeen retired from politics due to illness just before the last election and Dooley just scraped in by the skin of his teeth. Dooley supported the proposed boundary entension (Limerick City into Clare) and the downgrading of Shannon Airport, action that earned him the nickname "Dolittle". Clare has only one FF seat now in what was once De Valera's county.

Podge_irl · 07-07-2011 07:02PM

Fozzie Bear wrote: »

That's so dumb my face actually hurts from reading it. I swear to God I have a pain in my face. It is a mind bogglingly stupid statement.

You're making the assumption that all hospitals and all doctors are equally capable. This is demonstrably false.

Generally speaking (and I'm aware there are exceptions) the best doctors end up in the large city hospitals. University hospitals have more doctors and generally far more expertise. Doctors in larger hospitals see more cases and deal with more emergencies. Therefore they tend to be better equipped and better trained to deal with them.

As GerM pointed out the survival rate for cardiac emergencies in Roscommon is significantly poorer then the one in Galway.

I've had a doctor suggest, only marginally in jest, that if they were driving in Wexford and had a heart attack they'd keep on driving to Dublin.

AckwelFoley · 07-07-2011 07:08PM

€

We dont have it.

Simple.

Lives or no lives, pay tax or not - we dont have the money for all the A + E 's that we would like its rather simple yet hard to swallow fact

dissed doc · 07-07-2011 07:16PM

snyper wrote: »

€

We dont have it.

Simple.

Lives or no lives, pay tax or not - we dont have the money for all the A + E 's that we would like its rather simple yet hard to swallow fact

Actually we do, and had plenty of money to pay for these country wide facilities for decades, until our most recent government decided to piss it all away on banks and property development.

rossie1977 · 07-07-2011 07:49PM

i had to laugh today when one of the workers in roscommon hospital said the emergency response vehicle arrived yesterday, not an ambulance, not a helicopter but a ............................second hand ford focus

07-07-2011 08:02PM

dissed doc wrote: »

Actually we do, and had plenty of money to pay for these country wide facilities for decades, until our most recent government decided to piss it all away on banks and property development.

Er no we don't.

Even if a single cent wasn't given to the banks, the country is still spending €19 billion more than it can afford.

If people want the highest salaries in Europe, then it has to come from somewhere.

Ergo hospitals close.

Bally8 · 07-07-2011 08:02PM

GerM wrote: »

The additional resources provided to the ambulance service

What additional resources are being provided to the ambulance service?

mikom · 07-07-2011 08:11PM

Bally8 wrote: »

What additional resources are being provided to the ambulance service?

Also what additional hospital resources (staff, machines etc.) are being supplied to UCHG or Ballinasloe to cope with the overspill from Roscommon?
Fuck all I reckon.

Wolfe Tone · 07-07-2011 08:23PM

Its quite simple really, they don't give a sh!te about the ordinary man.

People will die over this and it will be blood on FGs and Labours hands.

Same sh!te that we had with FF. When will we fcuking learn that that FF and FG are the exact bloody same? Labour are a right shower too.

You know what the worst thing is? Next time round we will probably decide that voting FF in to fix FGs mess is a good idea.

07-07-2011 08:53PM

People have already died over A&E closures.

In an ideal world they'd allocate air ambulances for the areas hit by the closures and up staffing levels in the A&Es now responsible for these areas along with increasing their beds allocation.
The reality in Ireland in very different. They take away facilities without providing a viable alternative.
And before anyone shouts down the air ambulance suggestion - most of the areas hit by these closures have roads that even rally car drivers have to slow down on.

If you get a stroke or heart attack in West Clare, you may as well dump yourself over a cliff - you'd quite possibly have a higher rate of survival because the helicopter would come out for you so you'd get to the A&E quicker...

The government is blaming it on staffing issues but why have these issues not come to light before we had to bring in the IMF/EU loan sharks?
And why are the government not doing something about this skills shortage?

Pete M. · 07-07-2011 08:54PM

mikom wrote: »

Also what additional hospital resources (staff, machines etc.) are being supplied to UCHG or Ballinasloe to cope with the overspill from Roscommon?
Fuck all I reckon.

SFA I reckon also.

Sligo General, where a lot of patients would be redirected to is being slowly downgraded also.

Apart from the removal of cancer services that FG 'promised' to restore, wards are closing, budgets for pretty much everything are being slashed.
And it's the same all over the country.

They say they're going to build a new children's hospital too, except they just don't know where to get the money from.

And the Minister says don't come crying to me.

We have plenty of resources in this Country to provide for people but they insist on paying back a debt which isn't ours.

And then try to defend the fcukers making a tidy profit in the region of €9 billion on the loans given so far.

Protest at Sligo General on Saturday at 1:00pm btw if anyone interested.

There'll be at least ten people there.....

AckwelFoley · 07-07-2011 09:15PM

dissed doc wrote: »

Actually we do.

Do we? Cool, tell the minister for finance then.. clearly hes not paying attention

dissed doc wrote: »

had plenty of money for these country wide facilities for decades, until our most recent government decided to piss it all away on banks and property development.

Great, but we dont now.. sadly we have to live in the present.. and at the present we dont have the money..other than a "we do" from a few people

Fozzie Bear · 07-07-2011 09:19PM

GerM wrote: »

The statistics support his comment. You're roughly 4 times more likely to die attending Roscommon than Galway in a cardiac emergency. They simply do not have the resources to provide adequate medical care.

Show me the link/stats that prove this please. Or are you relying on James Reilly's version of things to justify the closure. Reilly himself said "The statistics in it are rough statistics" .

And even if that were absolute fact does it justify closing an A&E? Is every patient that presents there a corinary case? No broken bones, no bad cuts, no car accident victims?

GerM wrote: »

Attending Galway will save more lives than those that will be lost by the extra distance.

Phew! That is a HUGE relief. At least now when someones loved one dies in the back of an Ambulance stuck in traffic in Tuam they will be comforted by this fact. Sure we can afford to let a few people die off, collateral damage shall we say. Again I ask, show me the proof to back that up please.

Podge_irl wrote: »

You're making the assumption that all hospitals and all doctors are equally capable. This is demonstrably false.
Generally speaking (and I'm aware there are exceptions) the best doctors end up in the large city hospitals. University hospitals have more doctors and generally far more expertise. Doctors in larger hospitals see more cases and deal with more emergencies. Therefore they tend to be better equipped and better trained to deal with them.As GerM pointed out the survival rate for cardiac emergencies in Roscommon is significantly poorer then the one in Galway. I've had a doctor suggest, only marginally in jest, that if they were driving in Wexford and had a heart attack they'd keep on driving to Dublin.

I'm not doubting there are fantastic doctors in UHCG. But unless they can stick a feather up their arse and fly to Roscommon to treat a critically ill person then what good are they? My point is the hour and 30 minute cross country ride in the back of an Ambulance is going to kill people in need of urgent immediate medical attention.

If you or GerM happen to be in a bad car crash in Roscommon. You are telling me that you would prefer to travel to Galway city rather then Roscommon A&E? Bollóx you are, you would want to be in a hospital and getting treatment asap.

With due respect neither of you are from Roscommon are you? I have had treatment in Roscommon A&E several times as have members of my family. I have seen lads I played football with and against break legs and arms, lose teeth and in one case suffered a ruptured spleen. They were all brought to Roscommon A&E and got the best possible treatment they could within 45 minutes. In the spleen case it saved his life. Going to Galway would have killed him. Its really that simple lads, he would have died.

Thats what it comes down to, life and death.

The Left Hand Of God · 07-07-2011 09:20PM

You guys all know there are very few Doctors, A&E etc left in the country? Right?

Those "foreign" people who looked after you?

mikom · 07-07-2011 09:24PM

Fozzie Bear wrote: »

My point is the hour and 30 minute cross country ride in the back of an Ambulance is going to kill people in need of urgent immediate medical attention.

Come another harsh winter and you can bring that up to 2 hours I'll bet.

efb · 07-07-2011 09:26PM

mikom wrote: »

Come another harsh winter and you can bring that up to 2 hours I'll bet.

Guys an ambulance isnt just to get patients from a to b. Many a life has been sustained and maintained in an ambulance.

efb · 07-07-2011 09:28PM

People with broken arms, legs and teeth are not critical emergencies

mikom · 07-07-2011 09:29PM

efb wrote: »

Guys an ambulance isnt just to get patients from a to b. Many a life has been sustained and maintained in an ambulance.

And many arrive DOA.

The Left Hand Of God · 07-07-2011 09:30PM

mikom wrote: »

Come another harsh winter and you can bring that up to 2 hours I'll bet.

So what is the answer? Keep the A&E open and when people get there tell them the Doctor is in the other one? Sorry?

There is a doctor shortage ffs. They are leaving for a reason. One example is that they used to pay about 4-5 grand a year on training (to keep up to date with stuff) and got it refunded. That had been removed.

One of many reasons why they are leaving the country and going elsewhere.

Sorry but they are like the rest of us and looking for the best opportunities for themselves and their families.

Podge_irl · 07-07-2011 09:34PM

Fozzie Bear wrote: »

Show me the link/stats that prove this please. Or are you relying on James Reilly's version of things to justify the closure. Reilly himself said "The statistics in it are rough statistics" .

Rough statistics doesn't mean made up or wrong. There may be multiple factors behind the figures but a mortality rate of four times Galway is still startling.

And even if that were absolute fact does it justify closing an A&E? Is every patient that presents there a corinary case? No broken bones, no bad cuts

Thats what it comes down to, life and death.

Either we're talking life or death situations or we're talking mending broken bones. Make up your mind.

There is absolutely no indication that this is going to cost lives. It's a very real issue that regional A&Es lack the expertise, equipment and training to deal with an awful lot of major emergency cases. You are regularly far better off going to a larger hospital even if it takes an extra 30 mins or hour.

Also, if you're in the back of an ambulance you have an element of care available to you through the EMTs/paramedics. I'm not going to argue that the ambulance service needs to be improved as I agree with that.

They were all brought to Roscommon A&E and got the best possible treatment they could within 45 minutes

Good for them. 80 out of 100 people who appeared at Roscommon A&E with emergency cardiac problems survived just fine. Course that means 20 still died as opposed to the 5 who died in Galway.

Also, generally speaking you play football during the day - i.e. when the hospital will still be open.

You are telling me that you would prefer to travel to Galway city rather then Roscommon A&E? Bollóx you are, you would want to be in a hospital and getting treatment asap.

What I would want in a situation like that doesn't necessarily correspond to what would actually be better for me. People think irrationally at the best of times. The idea that going to a hospital closer is automatically better seems to make intuitive sense but that doesn't make it accurate.

It's akin to going to your local GP while having a heart attack cause he's closer. He's still a doctor but that doesn't mean you'll get the best care just cause you can get there quickest.

Biggins · 07-07-2011 09:42PM

Prime Time right now I think is covering this topic, if your not watching RTE 1 at the mo.
(if you've missed it, it will be online later on their RTE site)

mdebets · 07-07-2011 10:08PM

minikin wrote: »

Sick of hearing TD's equating hospital requirements for the country with Manchester because of similar populations, as if geography weren't a factor.

Hospital requirements are based on the population. Geography comes only into play in the pre-Hospital care and in the transport to the hospital.

You have statistically a certain number of A&E cases per 1.000 of population. This doesn't change if you spread the population over a smaller or larger area.
At the same time, you need a certain number of cases per doctor, to keep his experience level up (a doctor treating 100 heart attacks per month is obvious better than a doctor treating 10 in a year).

efb · 07-07-2011 11:09PM

mikom wrote: »

And many arrive DOA.

How many people die in ambulances en route??

efb · 07-07-2011 11:12PM

Lads I was brought to Beaumont from Offaly for emergency brain surgery, should every hospital have brain surgeons too?

07-07-2011 11:12PM

Podge_irl wrote: »

There is absolutely no indication that this is going to cost lives. It's a very real issue that regional A&Es lack the expertise, equipment and training to deal with an awful lot of major emergency cases. You are regularly far better off going to a larger hospital even if it takes an extra 30 mins or hour.

Also, if you're in the back of an ambulance you have an element of care available to you through the EMTs/paramedics. I'm not going to argue that the ambulance service needs to be improved as I agree with that.

Have a read of the below from 2009. Closing A&Es does cost lives according to one Dr James Reilly TD.
http://research.finegael.org/news/a/142/article/

“It is saddening that the worst fears of the people of the Mid West have come to pass so soon after the closure of the 24-hour A&E in Ennis General with a Clare patient forced to travel almost twice the distance for emergency treatment. I deeply sympathise with his wife and children.
...
Unfortunately the lessons of the North East which taught us that this was the likely outcome after these services were closed down have not been learned by the Health Minister and the HSE who persist in putting patients at risk by closing emergency services close to their homes.
...
Any review of the death of this Clare man on the road to Limerick must be robust and reliable so that lessons can be learned and other lives spared as a result.

I remember the case - he was a few mins from Limerick hospital when he died in the ambulance(Just on the Dock Road), he would have been in Ennis General for at least 20 mins if the A&E had been open. Ambulance crew can only do so much with what they have.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_hour_%28medicine%29

I understand the HSE's hand are tied due to lack of ground staff but they should be putting in provisions to get people to the A&E within an hour if they are taking away the A&E that is within an hour's reach of their home.

Roscommon Hospital and the lack of people who care

Comments