Butch identity

Kanoe · 03-07-2011 02:04AM

maybe you need to define butch first

I'm mother and father in the same role, I'm protector, provider and fixer upper, if it's a state of mind I've got it covered If it's aggresion, I got mine controlled, if it's packing and binding I might not be able to do it for ya.

baby and crumble · 03-07-2011 02:06AM

@ambersky- who knows, might be an idea!

@kanoe- that's what I was trying to do with this thread...

apache · 03-07-2011 02:08AM

baby and crumble wrote: »

I never said anyone wasn't 'butch enough'?? I just don't think of Sam Ronson as butch, but that is my take on it. Androgyny isn't butch, by definition, really.

And of course I worry about how I'm presenting myself to other people. Is that not what humans do? Many people here have said that the butch women in Ireland in particular are seen as aggressive and confrontational. I don't want to be percieved like that because of the way I dress. Surely that makes sense?

forget about sam ronson and those who perceive her to be so.

why worry about presenting yourself? its not what humans do. you should not give a **** how you present yourself to other people. i wouldn't take notice regards of what has been said here. it is full of ****! little life experience and full of people who don't know what they are. they do not represent me. in fairness half of the people here (especially in the butch thread came across as moronic)

i'm not aggressive or confrontational but i do not suffer fools gladly. there is a difference.

i don't worry how i come across to people

Links234 · 03-07-2011 02:09AM

Kanoe wrote: »

maybe you need to define butch first

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qv89wbZHzNQ

Kanoe · 03-07-2011 02:10AM

baby and crumble wrote: »

@ambersky- who knows, might be an idea!

@kanoe- that's what I was trying to do with this thread...

k I obviously have little experience in the area, all I know is what is swimming in the algae filled fishpond I've been swimming in the last few years, enlighten me..

apache · 03-07-2011 02:15AM

Links234 wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qv89wbZHzNQ

would it be ok if i posted up a parody of a trans person? bet your bottom dollar it wouldn't!

baby and crumble · 03-07-2011 02:19AM

Ok, I have no idea what's going on in this thread now, maybe it's the late hour or something, I dunno.

apache wrote:

forget about sam ronson and those who perceive her to be so.

why worry about presenting yourself? its not what humans do. you should not give a **** how you present yourself to other people. i wouldn't take notice regards of what has been said here. it is full of ****! little life experience and full of people who don't know what they are. they do not represent me. in fairness half of the people here (especially in the butch thread came across as moronic)

i'm not aggressive or confrontational but i do not suffer fools gladly. there is a difference.

i don't worry how i come across to people

Well done you. I have plenty of life experience, thank you very much. It is that exact life experience that lets me know that humans do worry about what other people think of them, and how they are seen within the world, otherwise why do some of us wear perfume to smell nice? After a while you can't smell yourself, so who are you doing that for? Oh that's right, other people. People maybe that you want to find you attractive, or interesting, since we're a social species who like other people to like them. I am not saying I'm going to turn around and be something I'm not, but I'm not young enough to think I know everything about the world, or myself.

I did not start this thread, nor indeed the dapper clothing thread to be told what to do. I started them to generate discussion. I think I have achieved that.

You don't know the first thing about me, not about my 'life experience'.

kanoe wrote:

k I obviously have little experience in the area, all I know is what is swimming in the algae filled fishpond I've been swimming in the last few years, enlighten me..

I don't even understand this sentence. I don't have a definition for butch, if tha'ts what you mean. I have no idea, that's why I started this thread.

Links234 · 03-07-2011 02:25AM

apache wrote: »

would it be ok if i posted up a parody of a trans person? bet your bottom dollar it wouldn't!

It's not a parody at all, it's a reading from S. Bear Bergman's book, Butch Is A Noun: http://sbearbergman.com/writing/BiaN.php

An irreverent, tender, funny, difficult, sexy narrative, Butch is a Noun tackles growing up butch and coming out butch, wrestling with it and embracing it and then wrestling with it some more. Butch is a Noun is a story of butch in its best moments and its worst, about butch in the context of femme and butch in the orbit of another butch and butch trying to stand alone - sometimes bravely and sometimes foolishly, sometimes successfully and sometimes fatally. In this book that began its life as a popular lecture by the same title, butch is revealed as a rich, complex, and highly nuanced gender in its own right.

I thought the self-referential humour about the identity politics that can come up in this kind of discussion would be of interest to some here.

apache · 03-07-2011 02:30AM

baby and crumble wrote: »

Ok, I have no idea what's going on in this thread now, maybe it's the late hour or something, I dunno.

Well done you. I have plenty of life experience, thank you very much. It is that exact life experience that lets me know that humans do worry about what other people think of them, and how they are seen within the world, otherwise why do some of us wear perfume to smell nice? After a while you can't smell yourself, so who are you doing that for? Oh that's right, other people. People maybe that you want to find you attractive, or interesting, since we're a social species who like other people to like them. I am not saying I'm going to turn around and be something I'm not, but I'm not young enough to think I know everything about the world, or myself.

I did not start this thread, nor indeed the dapper clothing thread to be told what to do. I started them to generate discussion. I think I have achieved that.

You don't know the first thing about me, not about my 'life experience'.

i only do things for myself. that is how we differ. i only like things because i like them not for someone else. you did start this thread.

sorry if you feel you are being attacked. you live in your safe world.

i don't study and try and perceive people. i live it. give me some credit :rolleyes:

forget about all your preconceptions. go out there and live it!

but one thing that galls me is those who say they are one thing and shy away from another. why?

the gas thing is i am probably not butch but i perceive myself to be. so i will fight and defend it because i have morals!

Kanoe · 03-07-2011 02:34AM

baby and crumble wrote: »

I don't even understand this sentence. I don't have a definition for butch, if tha'ts what you mean. I have no idea, that's why I started this thread.

ok, that's why I though it would be a good topic for discussion.

My experience with butches has been nothing short of abusive and all I can think is negative when the word is spoken. I've raised a family single handedly and I've looked to no one for anything and yet there are a class of women out there who think that drinking 17 pints in a night while wearing a pair of chinos makes them "hard", and in reality there is nothing , absolutely nothing sexual or attractive or even pleasant about them for me, they represent everything I never want to be.

thats what I think of when I hear the word butch. my bad, but at least I'm being honest with you but it is only what is available within my limited reach of experience down here.
To me you are not a representation of what I consider butch. It's not a sense of style, it's got nothing to do with what you wear or any masculine qualities that are portrayed, it's all attitude and soft and gentle has never been my experience of them..and that is what you are.

baby and crumble · 03-07-2011 02:37AM

Yes, I did start this thread, for DISCUSSION. Not to be told I'm wrong for being interested in what other people think.

sorry if you feel you are being attacked. you live in your safe world.

Way to be condescending.

i don't study and try and perceive people. i live it. give me some credit :rolleyes:

I do study people. It's actually my job. Which, again, is why these topics interest me for discussion.

Do you have anything to contribute to the actual focus of this thread, which is what you think butch identity means, or are you happy just to sit and judge people you don't know and assume you're better than them because you just 'live life'?

baby and crumble · 03-07-2011 02:42AM

kanoe wrote:

My experience with butches has been nothing short of abusive and all I can think is negative when the word is spoken. I've raised a family single handedly and I've looked to no one for anything and yet there are a class of women out there who think that drinking 17 pints in a night while wearing a pair of chinos makes them "hard", and in reality there is nothing , absolutely nothing sexual or attractive or even pleasant about them for me, they represent everything I never want to be.

thats what I think of when I hear the word butch. my bad, but at least I'm being honest with you but it is only what is available within my limited reach of experience down here.
To me you are not a representation of what I consider butch. It's not a sense of style, it's got nothing to do with what you wear or any masculine qualities that are portrayed, it's all attitude and soft and gentle has never been my experience of them..and that is what you are.

Thanks, kanoe. Not just for the compliment at the end, but that was what I was trying to get at from this thread, a sense of what people think of when they hear 'butch'. I guess aggression is a key part of that for you. I guess so much attention is spent looking at the clothing of butch women that it's hard to get at the kind of person that might encapsulate that identity...

I'd be kind of the same as you, when I hear 'butch' I think of tough women, aggressive maybe...

apache · 03-07-2011 02:44AM

Kanoe wrote: »

ok, that's why I though it would be a good topic for discussion.

My experience with butches has been nothing short of abusive and all I can think is negative when the word is spoken. I've raised a family single handedly and I've looked to no one for anything and yet there are a class of women out there who think that drinking 17 pints in a night while wearing a pair of chinos makes them "hard", and in reality there is nothing , absolutely nothing sexual or attractive or even pleasant about them for me, they represent everything I never want to be.

thats what I think of when I hear the word butch. my bad, but at least I'm being honest with you but it is only what is available within my limited reach of experience down here.
To me you are not a representation of what I consider butch. It's not a sense of style, it's got nothing to do with what you wear or any masculine qualities that are portrayed, it's all attitude and soft and gentle has never been my experience of them..and that is what you are.

your experience is very narrow minded

Ambersky · 03-07-2011 02:44AM

Thanks Links234 for that link:D
I had a little listen and really like hearing people read from books they love or inspire them.
I have known quite a few butches who were a bit in denial about who they were, who tried to tone it down or at least felt no pride in themselves but didnt know any other way to be.
So I really like seeing that big butch woman reading that piece.
She looks like she really gets what it is saying and is taking pleasure in empathising with the author.
@ apache maybe take a bit of time to have a listen I dont think the video is what it first appears to be.

apache · 03-07-2011 02:46AM

baby and crumble wrote: »

Yes, I did start this thread, for DISCUSSION. Not to be told I'm wrong for being interested in what other people think.

Way to be condescending.

I do study people. It's actually my job. Which, again, is why these topics interest me for discussion.

Do you have anything to contribute to the actual focus of this thread, which is what you think butch identity means, or are you happy just to sit and judge people you don't know and assume you're better than them because you just 'live life'?

thats your problem you study people.
i have nothing to add. take it away.......

Kanoe · 03-07-2011 02:47AM

apache wrote: »

your experience is very narrow minded

I know

I wish..I wish it were like the original text in the op because I would so very like to meet them.

Ambersky · 03-07-2011 02:51AM

In time Kanoe. In time.

apache · 03-07-2011 02:55AM

god jesus i am not even all that butch. you guys have a bad view of things

it may be just me?

i just understand it!

Ambersky · 03-07-2011 02:58AM

Im having difficulty following this, maybe it is because it is late.
Apache I dont know you at all but would it be a bad thing as far as you would be concerned if people percieved you as butch?

dreamer_ire · 03-07-2011 03:00AM

apache wrote: »

your experience is very narrow minded

I'm not sure you can describe someones experience as narrow minded, narrow maybe, but Kanoe has said that herself.

Some might describe me as soft butch because of my appearance and my dress and my impecable manners (:D), however it's not how I would define myself. Personally I don't like the labels of butch and femme, but then I'm not much of a label person. The big problem I have with labels is that they are restricting. Stereotypically butches are hard, femmes are soft... butches are the breadwinners, put out the rubbish, take the lead, do DIY! Femmes however decorate the house, look pretty, care for the butch etc etc etc. To me, butch and femme are societys way of "straightening" gay relationships. So, in appearance, dress etc I may appear a soft bucth, but I will never be the one to empty a mouse trap or change a spark plug.... you will however find me baking when I'm not doing DIY!

apache · 03-07-2011 03:04AM

Ambersky wrote: »

Im having difficulty following this, maybe it is because it is late.
Apache I dont know you at all but would it be a bad thing as far as you would be concerned if people percieved you as butch?

no it wouldn't. i know it is difficult to follow. i finished an 18hr shift and i am exhausted and ratty but in the cold light of day i think i would stand by my points.

most people say i'm not but i think i am.

a cute butch

goodnight zzzzzzzz

apache · 03-07-2011 03:06AM

dreamer_ire wrote: »

I'm not sure you can describe someones experience as narrow minded, narrow maybe, but Kanoe has said that herself.

Some might describe me as soft butch because of my appearance and my dress and my impecable manners (:D), however it's not how I would define myself. Personally I don't like the labels of butch and femme, but then I'm not much of a label person. The big problem I have with labels is that they are restricting. Stereotypically butches are hard, femmes are soft... butches are the breadwinners, put out the rubbish, take the lead, do DIY! Femmes however decorate the house, look pretty, care for the butch etc etc etc. To me, butch and femme are societys way of "straightening" gay relationships. So, in appearance, dress etc I may appear a soft bucth, but I will never be the one to empty a mouse trap or change a spark plug.... you will however find me baking when I'm not doing DIY!

that is not how i perceive butch to be. not at all! maybe there is a breakdown in communication?

dreamer_ire · 03-07-2011 03:07AM

apache wrote: »

that is not who i perceive butch to be. not at all!

Well I guess that was the point of the thread, to discuss each others perceptions.

apache · 03-07-2011 03:13AM

dreamer_ire wrote: »

Well I guess that was the point of the thread, to discuss each others perceptions.

you are quite right. i got lost there. nothing really was solved.

dreamer_ire · 03-07-2011 03:15AM

apache wrote: »

you are quite right. i got lost there. nothing really was solved.

Nah, and it never will.... that's the beauty of life. We listen to/debate with each other, it may or may not change our perceptions but when the conversation along the way is interesting, it's a win-win.

apache · 03-07-2011 03:21AM

dreamer_ire wrote: »

Nah, and it never will.... that's the beauty of life. We listen to/debate with each other, it may or may not change our perceptions but when the conversation along the way is interesting, it's a win-win.

i agree. but i would prefer meeting people in the flesh and talking these things out. it just gets kinda jaded behind an internet forum. it lacks substance to me.

but yeah i hear you.

look at the time :eek:

glad i can sleep in tomorrow. what is rare is beautiful.

Platinum2010 · 03-07-2011 03:23AM

so long as you gain insight and become more open minded , the world becomes a better place .....Jesus I'm obviously drunk haha or tired

apache · 03-07-2011 03:27AM

Platinum2010 wrote: »

so long as you gain insight and become more open minded , the world becomes a better place .....Jesus I'm obviously drunk haha or tired

jesus i feel ****ing terrible hearing them words from you. i really know i am off the wall when you say something like that. jesus mary and joseph make it ok

Platinum2010 · 03-07-2011 03:30AM

apache wrote: »

jesus i feel ****ing terrible hearing them words from you. i really know i am off the wall when you say something like that. jesus mary and joseph make it ok

whats that supposed to mean?

Kanoe · 03-07-2011 03:35AM

I laughed a little bit.am i going to hell?

Butch identity

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