Butch identity

baby and crumble

Another spin-off thread, from the clothing and dapper lesbians thread...

What do people think when they see or hear the word 'butch'? I think that for a lot of the community, butch is like the girl version of camp- it's the thing that makes the rest look bad to lots of people. Butch lesbians are the reason we're so often equated to 'wanting to be men'. Very butch women can be pretty intimidating, too, if reports from lesbians on the DUblin scene are to be trusted (my own experiences years ago included).

I both see myself as butch and femme, and I like that. I like that I wear mens styles cut for my body. I LOVE being a woman (25 days out of the month, anyway...) and I don't dress to hide that side of me.

I also wonder about women who are attracted to butch women- women like me and butcher. Like apache said in the other thread, what about butch women who are attracted to other butch women? For some reason it's seen as normal for a lesbian to fancy femme girls, but like a dirty secret if you fancy a butch girl? WHat gives?

I saw this on yahoo answers a while ago, I hope it's ok to repost it, I know it's long... It's just interesting. I know I found it useful in trying to big up my confidence about being slightly butch...

Ooh, what a delightful question. I love everything about butch women, and I always have. More feminine girls just don't do anything for me sexually- I can objectively admire their beauty and sexiness, but in the end, it's when I see a woman who is androgynous, boyish, or plain out manly, my heart starts to pitter-patter. So let me sing an ode to butches here, because far too often all I see is "Eww, yuck, I like my women to look like women!", and that's so sad.

I love butch hair. I like the way the women who wear it- whether it's short or long- use their hair in a completely different way than do feminine women- they don't flip it or toss it or curl it around their fingers, but sometimes they run their hands through it that special way. I love the way short hair looks so distinguished on a strong face that would otherwise be hidden by length, and I love the way a shaved butch head both reveals a butch's masculinity in attitude, and femininity in the face and head that emerge.

I love butch faces. I love the androgynous and tomboyish faces that are beautiful, elvish, almost- the girls who could be extraordinarily beautiful in femme drag. But more than that I love the butch faces that can't do that- that look ridiculous when painted up and framed by a wig. I love strong, square jaws that are firmly held rather than slack. I love high foreheads and thick brows that other people would probably want to pluck and shape. I love butch eyes, that are always so extraordinary. Not hidden by tons of makeup or weighted down with the way femme women often look away, it's like looking into their souls. I love the way a butch speaks with her eyes- those direct stares that say "I love you." or make you break out in a hot flush from across the room. I love butch mouths, which are the ultimate combination: soft and sensuous girl lips that don't act like girl lips- no pouting or worried thinning or other 'femme' signs.

I love butch bodies, every way they come. I like the way that the butch female form is somehow hidden in its clothing- from the T-shirt and jeans to the sharpest cut suit, you can always tell it's there, in the hips, the luscious curve of breast, but it's not on display the way femme clothing screams "boobs here! butt here!". I love muscles on a woman's body, more than the average sporty femme should have, bulging, tensing. I love butches who don't shave their legs or their armpits, who own the hair on their body, and how though it's long, most people don't realize it's downy soft, too, a beautiful covering. I love butch boobs, because they are such a prize, alternatively hated and ignored by their owners. I love little butch t*ts and big butch t*ts- I love the shape they make on a boxy body and I adore the juxtaposition of hard muscle, soft breast. I love to see a butch unwind her binding and the breasts to spill out like presents, and then get wrapped up again for the world, a secret only I've had access to. I love butch legs and torsos- they are so often trunk-like, solid. Even when they're scrawny, they have a centeredness, a strength. Muscled butch legs, smooth or hairy, get me every time. I love the way so many butches adorn their bodies, bodies that aren't supposed to be, but get decorated anyways- butch piercings and tattoos- a ring around a bicep makes me melt. I love the way butches smell- not cloyingly, sickeningly sweet like femmes' perfume or other body scents, but clean, fresh, sometimes musky and sour with cologne, but always different, always, somehow, natural.

I love butch fashion- I am quite simply and utterly delighted by the way women wear what's regarded as men's clothing. For anyone who's ever thought that butches are lazy dressers, I want to point out the woman who looks so utterly dashing in her suit and tie, or just a dress shirt and slacks, the boi who is able to rock a Justin Timberlake look, right down to the fedora, who makes a wifebeater look as tasty as it can be, who make men in theirs look sallowly concave at the chest. I love the studded belts that punk butches wear, the boys jeans that fit off-kilter around their hips just enough. I cannot begin to explain the heat it generates to see a butch in boxers, or better yet, boxer-briefs or boy's underwear, those legs branching up to the three-pronged cut, the flap lying flat and empty, or maybe bulging with a packer. I love the fact that nearly every butch owns a pair of boots, solid, thundering boots that look so army powerful and commanding when they wear them. I love a woman in men's clothing.

I love the way butches act. I love the particular way a butch woman acts "like a man", but with a woman's way- gentlemanly ettiquette and all. I don't know how to describe that it's not hardly even the butch qualities (sitting wide-legged and spread out, standing tall and firm), but rather how comfortable and natural she is being that way that makes it so good. I love the way butches are playful and funny but not coy or manipulative- I love their straight-forwardness. I love that "bulldagger swagger" so full of confidence and seriousness, that peacock strut. I love the way butches feel a masculine sense of obligation and duty and protection, but it doesn't translate into male ego. My heart squeezes at the way butches deal with their emotions- sometimes hiding it, swallowing it down, and that facade of pride and bravado. I love the way butches act- so confident, so gentlemanly, so tough. I love butch voices- the ones that are pitched too low, but refuse to take on the sort of drawl that would turn it into a throaty, sultry femme voice. I love the way butches can navigate the world- not in competition with men, but buddies and friends, and yet slide into women's land and have that identity, too.

I love the way butches have sex- how they know just what to do, and want to do it so very badly. I love the way butches use their hands like sex organs for delicate handlings. I love the outline of a strap-on contained in jeans or underwear. I love butches who can orgasm by jerking off their silicone c*cks, whose metaphysical erections are so strong in their minds that the touch practically translates. I absolutely am addicted to the faces of butch pleasure- the eyes rolling back in the head, the body shudders, the complete way a feminine orgasm rolls through a butch body, made masculine by it. I love butches who top but more I love butches who bottom or do both- I am drawn to butch women who know that being touched and penetrated and pleasured doesn't invalidate her butchness, doesn't feminize her, doesn't equal submission. I love butches who are into BDSM, who look fantastic in leather and who take slow, careful deliberation in their acts, who wear that power like an easy mantle. I love butches who love other butches as well as femmes- those girls who know the true pleasures of same-sex relations, when the sameness is in two butch bodies banging together, mirror images, same intense ferocity and heat.

But perhaps most of all, I love butches for who they are in this world. My heart aches and yearns for the strength I feel from them, how every day they walk the world looking the way they do and basically inviting- and then bearing- attacks for not giving up and conforming to feminine ideals. I love them for being who they are, and not letting anyone tell them that women do not have crew cuts, or women don't wear ties, or women must be this, or must be that.

Simply put, I am in love and lust with butches, and I don't care if other people aren't (you can't control what you like), but I want them to understand that butches can be- and are- desirable.

So what do people think? Perhaps butch is a state of mind rather than a concrete 'thing'?

apache

em i think it was me who said about butch women being attracted to butch women not kanoe :rolleyes:
please amend that copyright :P

i will read this in due course. cheers zoegh

baby and crumble

My heartiest apologies!

Platinum2010

I think to be butch is not necessarily a lesbian only thing to be honest
Butch means certain things to certain people

To some people I know they classify someone with hard skin and a broad back as butch . To them butch is a physicality thing

To me Butch and baby dyk* are seperate concepts

Butch in my mind is a streetwise person who is more or less fearless and used to street life , I'm not talking thuggish but more like ..... Been through hardships and is prepared for anything really . It's a way of life like straight men trying to prove their macho ness .
I think a butch woman is more of a deep rooted feminist kinda thing
whereas baby dyk* is more about style

Kanoe

that reads like porn, delishious

and you found this on yahoo you say ?

baby and crumble

platinum2010 wrote:

I think a butch woman is more of a deep rooted feminist kinda thing
whereas baby dyk* is more about style

Hmmm... not sure if I agree, just personally. I agree with what you say about butch being a personality thing, perhaps, but I think the same is true of baby dyke. When I think of baby dyke I think of someone new to the scene, most likely looking like Justin Bieber or the girl equivalent and looking slightly scared and cocky at the same time...

God, that's very judgy of me! oh well.

kanoe wrote:

that reads like porn, delishious

and you found this on yahoo you say ?

Indeed, on yahoo question, at this link; http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080423150826AAlBRYx

It's quite a sexy description, eh? It's nice to see stuff like that written, not just celebrating the standard idea of female beauty. I like it.

Platinum2010

zoegh wrote: »

Hmmm... not sure if I agree, just personally. I agree with what you say about butch being a personality thing, perhaps, but I think the same is true of baby dyke. When I think of baby dyke I think of someone new to the scene, looking slightly scared and cocky at the same time...

I think the baby thing suggests new to the scene but I think Dykish ness is more of a style / attitude rather than a personality

Kanoe

zoegh wrote: »

It's quite a sexy description, eh? It's nice to see stuff like that written, not just celebrating the standard idea of female beauty. I like it.

see, I think this is the crux of the matter. It's a good topic for discussion, I just have to have a little think first.

Kanoe

That text is so lovely I don't want to detract from it at all, it really says all that should be said on the topic.

zoegh wrote: »

not just celebrating the standard idea of female beauty.

but this is the part I probably should have highlighted. The original question to this response was do you considered butches attractive?
which is not really the same as how do you feel about the word butch.

or is it?

baby and crumble

It was more the concepts that the word conjure up than the word itself. Like is it negative?

I generally don't find butch women attractive, however it's not because I find them 'too manly' or something. I think it's because I identify more as butch than anything, and I find it a bit... egoistic to find yourself attractive... plus in general you dislike the traits you see in others which you share, so... And thee have been butches i see as attracitve, mostly because i'm jealous of some of their wardrobe (a la this lady)

I guess something I found interesting is take for example the Afterellen Hot 100- very few women on that are what many would class as 'butch'... why is that?

Kanoe

That's how I feel but then I have only been "dating" other women for twoish years and I'm finding my tastes have changed, as I have during the process.
I know I referred to a specific case on the other thread but it genuinely was people like that who clouded my views on butch lesbians when I was setting out and it's not because she's a butch lesbian but unfortunately that's all I could see. I was walking with a friend yesterday and same girl (middle aged woman) comes up the rear and started roaring randomly in our direction, seeking a reaction, we both ignored her..we had kids with us and everything ffs and it's people like that who give butch a bad name. To me it's repulsive behaviour and unfortunately I associated it with what butch means for a long time.

[edit; and i don't even know this person]

shoegirl

Generally the hostility to "butch" is down to perceived or real agression.

Kanoe

http://www.afterellen.com/people/2007/7/topbutches
that should even out the score

Kanoe

I still want to punch her in the face though

Ambersky

Kanoe Some interesting coments on just what constitutes a Butch in that After Ellen article on the Top 15 Butches.

This link has images of women that are described as androgynous.
Some of them look like they lean towards butch in my opinion and some look like femmes in suits .
Have a look and see what you think.
Here are some of the more butch examples, all in the interest of developing an understanding and appreciation and all
http://bulle.yagg.com/2011/06/27/landrogynie-de-la-fascination-au-fantasme-ou-pas/

spurious

Butch women. Nyom.

Kanoe

I can totally appreciate it Ambersky, in fact it was a hot butchesque woman I saw once who triggered this process for me. I remember vividly everything about her from the shape of her clothes to the tattoo's on her arms. I knew she wasn't Irish and she was only here for a short stay and I was supposed to be watching hot air balloons but I was completely distracted because she was so intriguing to me. I knew when I saw her that she was me, or at least that's who and how I am and I really needed to be that, to express it and I started the coming out process with myself.
So maybe it is a little of what Zeogh (baby and crumble :P) described earlier about not being attracted to aspects of yourself in others but I can very much appreciate it.

Ultimately though it is personality I am attracted to, I mean if someone is a right díck, I'm not going to be swayed regardless of how good they look.

apache

oh goddess i don't know where to start here and if i do i will go on for ages

Platinum2010

omg people need to stop posting Sam Ronson pics or there will be a river on my floor

apache

Platinum2010 wrote: »

omg people need to stop posting Sam Ronson pics or there will be a river on my floor

thought you were looking for a femme
lesbians are so confusing

Platinum2010

apache wrote: »

thought you were looking for a femme
lesbians are so confusing

No I was just saying they are hard to find , im not picky though
anything well kept is fine for me

apache

ok
*disbelieving stare*

baby and crumble

See now, most of those pics ambersky posted are not what I would consider pics f 'butch' women. Sam Ronson really doesn't strike me as butch. Not sure why though...

apache

apache wrote: »

oh goddess i don't know where to start here and if i do i will go on for ages

i'm glad i had the common sense to say this.

maybe another time.....

apache

@ zeogh "This is what I'm terrified of also, of being thought of in those terms... mean I have a tattoo but it's all purple and pretty... "

this was your quote in another thread. and there is a few more. i struggle to find why you say you are one thing yet shy away from another

what are you? i know what i am but i find these boards quite juvenile with these remarks to be honest. no offence but when i saw the silly stuff in the the butch thread i thought was is the point in explaining things?

the only thing i can be here is juvenile because that is the only way i fit in. it seems to be the consensus.

but that wears thin after a while. :mad:

baby and crumble

apache wrote:

@ zeogh "This is what I'm terrified of also, of being thought of in those terms... mean I have a tattoo but it's all purple and pretty... "

this was your quote in another thread. and there is a few more. i struggle to find why you say you are one thing yet shy away from another

what are you? i know what i am but i find these boards quite juvenile with these remarks to be honest. no offence but when i saw the silly stuff in the the butch thread i thought was is the point in explaining things?

(zoegh here, I changed my name)

I don't really understand your points, apache. I never said I "was" anything. That was my point, I have no idea. There are elements of me that are butch, elements that aren't.

What silly stuff are you talking about?

apache

baby and crumble wrote: »

See now, most of those pics ambersky posted are not what I would consider pics f 'butch' women. Sam Ronson really doesn't strike me as butch. Not sure why though...

she was probably going for the adronygous (sic) angle. well thats what i took from it.

Ambersky

For those who didnt find the previous images butch enough
How is this, any better?
Im just putting up a few images for the fun of it.
Kind of enjoy a bit of butch appreciation so what the heck.
the link Kanoe put up earlier http://www.afterellen.com/people/2007/7/topbutches to After Ellen had a bit of a discussion on what different women found Butch or Not.



http://cb.pbsstatic.com/l/59/0059/9781860470059.jpg NSFW

http://www.dellagracevolcano.com/classics.html#6 NSFW

http://www.dellagracevolcano.com/dragkings.html#3

apache

baby and crumble wrote: »

(zoegh here, I changed my name)

I don't really understand your points, apache. I never said I "was" anything. That was my point, I have no idea. There are elements of me that are butch, elements that aren't.

What silly stuff are you talking about?

being worried that you are portrayed to a certain element in the young lesbian community? you have already said it.

baby and crumble

I never said anyone wasn't 'butch enough'?? I just don't think of Sam Ronson as butch, but that is my take on it. Androgyny isn't butch, by definition, really.

And of course I worry about how I'm presenting myself to other people. Is that not what humans do? Many people here have said that the butch women in Ireland in particular are seen as aggressive and confrontational. I don't want to be percieved like that because of the way I dress. Surely that makes sense?

Ambersky

Maybe if you butch up a bit deliberately Baby and Crumble and get some positive feedback, you wont mind

Kanoe

maybe you need to define butch first

I'm mother and father in the same role, I'm protector, provider and fixer upper, if it's a state of mind I've got it covered If it's aggresion, I got mine controlled, if it's packing and binding I might not be able to do it for ya.

baby and crumble

@ambersky- who knows, might be an idea!

@kanoe- that's what I was trying to do with this thread...

apache

baby and crumble wrote: »

I never said anyone wasn't 'butch enough'?? I just don't think of Sam Ronson as butch, but that is my take on it. Androgyny isn't butch, by definition, really.

And of course I worry about how I'm presenting myself to other people. Is that not what humans do? Many people here have said that the butch women in Ireland in particular are seen as aggressive and confrontational. I don't want to be percieved like that because of the way I dress. Surely that makes sense?

forget about sam ronson and those who perceive her to be so.



why worry about presenting yourself? its not what humans do. you should not give a **** how you present yourself to other people. i wouldn't take notice regards of what has been said here. it is full of ****! little life experience and full of people who don't know what they are. they do not represent me. in fairness half of the people here (especially in the butch thread came across as moronic)

i'm not aggressive or confrontational but i do not suffer fools gladly. there is a difference.

i don't worry how i come across to people

Links234

Kanoe wrote: »

maybe you need to define butch first

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qv89wbZHzNQ

Kanoe

baby and crumble wrote: »

@ambersky- who knows, might be an idea!

@kanoe- that's what I was trying to do with this thread...

k I obviously have little experience in the area, all I know is what is swimming in the algae filled fishpond I've been swimming in the last few years, enlighten me..

apache

Links234 wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qv89wbZHzNQ

would it be ok if i posted up a parody of a trans person? bet your bottom dollar it wouldn't!

baby and crumble

Ok, I have no idea what's going on in this thread now, maybe it's the late hour or something, I dunno.

apache wrote:

forget about sam ronson and those who perceive her to be so.

why worry about presenting yourself? its not what humans do. you should not give a **** how you present yourself to other people. i wouldn't take notice regards of what has been said here. it is full of ****! little life experience and full of people who don't know what they are. they do not represent me. in fairness half of the people here (especially in the butch thread came across as moronic)

i'm not aggressive or confrontational but i do not suffer fools gladly. there is a difference.

i don't worry how i come across to people

Well done you. I have plenty of life experience, thank you very much. It is that exact life experience that lets me know that humans do worry about what other people think of them, and how they are seen within the world, otherwise why do some of us wear perfume to smell nice? After a while you can't smell yourself, so who are you doing that for? Oh that's right, other people. People maybe that you want to find you attractive, or interesting, since we're a social species who like other people to like them. I am not saying I'm going to turn around and be something I'm not, but I'm not young enough to think I know everything about the world, or myself.

I did not start this thread, nor indeed the dapper clothing thread to be told what to do. I started them to generate discussion. I think I have achieved that.

You don't know the first thing about me, not about my 'life experience'.

kanoe wrote:

k I obviously have little experience in the area, all I know is what is swimming in the algae filled fishpond I've been swimming in the last few years, enlighten me..

I don't even understand this sentence. I don't have a definition for butch, if tha'ts what you mean. I have no idea, that's why I started this thread.

Links234

apache wrote: »

would it be ok if i posted up a parody of a trans person? bet your bottom dollar it wouldn't!

It's not a parody at all, it's a reading from S. Bear Bergman's book, Butch Is A Noun: http://sbearbergman.com/writing/BiaN.php

An irreverent, tender, funny, difficult, sexy narrative, Butch is a Noun tackles growing up butch and coming out butch, wrestling with it and embracing it and then wrestling with it some more. Butch is a Noun is a story of butch in its best moments and its worst, about butch in the context of femme and butch in the orbit of another butch and butch trying to stand alone - sometimes bravely and sometimes foolishly, sometimes successfully and sometimes fatally. In this book that began its life as a popular lecture by the same title, butch is revealed as a rich, complex, and highly nuanced gender in its own right.

I thought the self-referential humour about the identity politics that can come up in this kind of discussion would be of interest to some here.

apache

baby and crumble wrote: »

Ok, I have no idea what's going on in this thread now, maybe it's the late hour or something, I dunno.



Well done you. I have plenty of life experience, thank you very much. It is that exact life experience that lets me know that humans do worry about what other people think of them, and how they are seen within the world, otherwise why do some of us wear perfume to smell nice? After a while you can't smell yourself, so who are you doing that for? Oh that's right, other people. People maybe that you want to find you attractive, or interesting, since we're a social species who like other people to like them. I am not saying I'm going to turn around and be something I'm not, but I'm not young enough to think I know everything about the world, or myself.

I did not start this thread, nor indeed the dapper clothing thread to be told what to do. I started them to generate discussion. I think I have achieved that.

You don't know the first thing about me, not about my 'life experience'.

i only do things for myself. that is how we differ. i only like things because i like them not for someone else. you did start this thread.
sorry if you feel you are being attacked. you live in your safe world.

i don't study and try and perceive people. i live it. give me some credit :rolleyes:

forget about all your preconceptions. go out there and live it!

but one thing that galls me is those who say they are one thing and shy away from another. why?

the gas thing is i am probably not butch but i perceive myself to be. so i will fight and defend it because i have morals!

Kanoe

baby and crumble wrote: »

I don't even understand this sentence. I don't have a definition for butch, if tha'ts what you mean. I have no idea, that's why I started this thread.

ok, that's why I though it would be a good topic for discussion.

My experience with butches has been nothing short of abusive and all I can think is negative when the word is spoken. I've raised a family single handedly and I've looked to no one for anything and yet there are a class of women out there who think that drinking 17 pints in a night while wearing a pair of chinos makes them "hard", and in reality there is nothing , absolutely nothing sexual or attractive or even pleasant about them for me, they represent everything I never want to be.

thats what I think of when I hear the word butch. my bad, but at least I'm being honest with you but it is only what is available within my limited reach of experience down here.
To me you are not a representation of what I consider butch. It's not a sense of style, it's got nothing to do with what you wear or any masculine qualities that are portrayed, it's all attitude and soft and gentle has never been my experience of them..and that is what you are.

baby and crumble

Yes, I did start this thread, for DISCUSSION. Not to be told I'm wrong for being interested in what other people think.

sorry if you feel you are being attacked. you live in your safe world.

Way to be condescending.

i don't study and try and perceive people. i live it. give me some credit :rolleyes:

I do study people. It's actually my job. Which, again, is why these topics interest me for discussion.

Do you have anything to contribute to the actual focus of this thread, which is what you think butch identity means, or are you happy just to sit and judge people you don't know and assume you're better than them because you just 'live life'?

baby and crumble

kanoe wrote:

My experience with butches has been nothing short of abusive and all I can think is negative when the word is spoken. I've raised a family single handedly and I've looked to no one for anything and yet there are a class of women out there who think that drinking 17 pints in a night while wearing a pair of chinos makes them "hard", and in reality there is nothing , absolutely nothing sexual or attractive or even pleasant about them for me, they represent everything I never want to be.

thats what I think of when I hear the word butch. my bad, but at least I'm being honest with you but it is only what is available within my limited reach of experience down here.
To me you are not a representation of what I consider butch. It's not a sense of style, it's got nothing to do with what you wear or any masculine qualities that are portrayed, it's all attitude and soft and gentle has never been my experience of them..and that is what you are.

Thanks, kanoe. Not just for the compliment at the end, but that was what I was trying to get at from this thread, a sense of what people think of when they hear 'butch'. I guess aggression is a key part of that for you. I guess so much attention is spent looking at the clothing of butch women that it's hard to get at the kind of person that might encapsulate that identity...

I'd be kind of the same as you, when I hear 'butch' I think of tough women, aggressive maybe...

apache

Kanoe wrote: »

ok, that's why I though it would be a good topic for discussion.

My experience with butches has been nothing short of abusive and all I can think is negative when the word is spoken. I've raised a family single handedly and I've looked to no one for anything and yet there are a class of women out there who think that drinking 17 pints in a night while wearing a pair of chinos makes them "hard", and in reality there is nothing , absolutely nothing sexual or attractive or even pleasant about them for me, they represent everything I never want to be.

thats what I think of when I hear the word butch. my bad, but at least I'm being honest with you but it is only what is available within my limited reach of experience down here.
To me you are not a representation of what I consider butch. It's not a sense of style, it's got nothing to do with what you wear or any masculine qualities that are portrayed, it's all attitude and soft and gentle has never been my experience of them..and that is what you are.

your experience is very narrow minded

Ambersky

Thanks Links234 for that link:D
I had a little listen and really like hearing people read from books they love or inspire them.
I have known quite a few butches who were a bit in denial about who they were, who tried to tone it down or at least felt no pride in themselves but didnt know any other way to be.
So I really like seeing that big butch woman reading that piece.
She looks like she really gets what it is saying and is taking pleasure in empathising with the author.
@ apache maybe take a bit of time to have a listen I dont think the video is what it first appears to be.

apache

baby and crumble wrote: »

Yes, I did start this thread, for DISCUSSION. Not to be told I'm wrong for being interested in what other people think.



Way to be condescending.



I do study people. It's actually my job. Which, again, is why these topics interest me for discussion.

Do you have anything to contribute to the actual focus of this thread, which is what you think butch identity means, or are you happy just to sit and judge people you don't know and assume you're better than them because you just 'live life'?

thats your problem you study people.
i have nothing to add. take it away.......

Kanoe

apache wrote: »

your experience is very narrow minded

I know I wish..I wish it were like the original text in the op because I would so very like to meet them.

Ambersky

In time Kanoe. In time.

apache

god jesus i am not even all that butch. you guys have a bad view of things

it may be just me?

i just understand it!

Ambersky

Im having difficulty following this, maybe it is because it is late.
Apache I dont know you at all but would it be a bad thing as far as you would be concerned if people percieved you as butch?

dreamer_ire

apache wrote: »

your experience is very narrow minded

I'm not sure you can describe someones experience as narrow minded, narrow maybe, but Kanoe has said that herself.

Some might describe me as soft butch because of my appearance and my dress and my impecable manners (:D), however it's not how I would define myself. Personally I don't like the labels of butch and femme, but then I'm not much of a label person. The big problem I have with labels is that they are restricting. Stereotypically butches are hard, femmes are soft... butches are the breadwinners, put out the rubbish, take the lead, do DIY! Femmes however decorate the house, look pretty, care for the butch etc etc etc. To me, butch and femme are societys way of "straightening" gay relationships. So, in appearance, dress etc I may appear a soft bucth, but I will never be the one to empty a mouse trap or change a spark plug.... you will however find me baking when I'm not doing DIY!