Should religion be taught in schools?

philologos · 01-07-2011 5:21pm

Tehachapi wrote: »

Because a single religious person works in the area of IT? The vast majority of my friends/colleagues working in the areas of IT/pharma/biology are non-religious. I think you'll find the same when you begin your career.

I know a good number of Christians involved in IT / Software Development and indeed in scientific research.

Indeed, there are plenty all over the world in natural science.

Your argument doesn't even go far enough to get to the point correlation does not equal causation.

You've just assumed that RE class is the reason why school finishers don't want to study the natural sciences / IT. Why? No reason apart from a dislike of religious beliefs.

Tehachapi · 01-07-2011 5:25pm

philologos wrote: »

I know a good number of Christians involved in IT / Software Development and indeed in scientific research.

Indeed, there are plenty all over the world in natural science.

Your argument doesn't even go far enough to get to the point correlation does not equal causation.

You've just assumed that RE class is the reason why school finishers don't want to study the natural sciences / IT. Why? No reason apart from a dislike of religious beliefs.

No, I am arguing what is the point of filling their minds with rubbish at a point when their brains are like a sponge - absorbing every piece of information and also at a time when they are still trying to make sense of the workings of the world.

Just for the record, do you think it is correct to teach 5, 6 and 7 year old children that a man can walk on water? That a man was magically resurrected from the dead after being crucified? And that the world is only 6000 years old and evolution is nonsense? Please answer this point before arguing with me any further.

These aren't adults like us who can easily dismiss this stuff as nonsense.

Seachmall · 01-07-2011 5:25pm

Tehachapi wrote: »

That's not the point I'm trying to make, obviously there will be some religious people who are quite successful in their career and life - such as your uncle. I'm talking more about the long-term damage of teaching hundreds of millions of children stuff that is clearly false (resurrection, walking on water, creationism, etc) and confuses their minds.

I think most people would agree, priests included, that religion is something that should be taught at home and in church. Religious Studies should be taught in school because they're a huge factor in society.

I also think Critical Thinking classes should be provided, as mentioned earlier.

Greentopia · 01-07-2011 5:26pm

mikemac wrote: »

+1
Are there schools in Ireland which do this?

Don't know tbh, have no kids in schools. I'd say the nearest is the multi-denominational Educate Together schools although they're only Primary schools at the moment.

Naikon · 01-07-2011 5:27pm

Religion is a disease on modern society.

philologos · 01-07-2011 5:29pm

Tehachapi wrote: »

No, I am arguing what is the point of filling their minds with rubbish at a point when their brains are like a sponge - absorbing every piece of information and also at a time when they are still trying to make sense of the workings of the world.

1. Why / how is it rubbish?
2. What does this have to do with the number of people taking science and IT at university?

Tehachapi wrote: »

Just for the record, do you think is correct to teach 5, 6 and 7 year old children that a man can walk on water? That a man was magically resurrected from the dead after being crucified? And that the world is only 6000 years old and evolution is nonsense? Please answer this point before arguing with me any further.

1. The idea of the miraculous should only be taught on the provisio that miracles aren't natural occurrences.
2. Denying evolution & scientifically given age of the universe - Mistaken even from a Christian POV in my view.

I've not even gotten into an argument with you. You've not even told me what is the connection between RE classes and a lack of people doing the sciences? I'm asking you to answer this.

Tehachapi wrote: »

These aren't adults like us who can easily dismiss this stuff as nonsense.

I believe that the Christian Gospel is the truth. I don't dismiss it as nonsense because I don't believe it to be nonsense.

Logical Fallacy · 01-07-2011 5:32pm

Tehachapi wrote: »

Why? Why not use that time/resources to teach them something beneficial to society like biology or physics? Should my leprechaun ghost religion be included on that course also?

School should also be about teaching kids HOW to think, study of theology and philosophy would be mandatory if LF ran the world.

I'd much rather equip kids with the ability to approach a subject and analyse it than simply dismiss it.

Teach kids about the different religions, their impacts, how those religions have tied in with assorted social, political and economic trends and you are off to a good start.

Mike 1972 · 01-07-2011 5:34pm

Tehachapi wrote: »

Why? Why not use that time/resources to teach them something beneficial to society like biology or physics? Should my leprechaun ghost religion be included on that course also?

Because like it or not there is a lot of religion in the world and kids are going to know a bit about it so that they will be able to deal with it when they come up against it ?

Im all for a completly secularised school system but even under such a system there is still going to be a need to devote some time (albeit far less than present) to teach kids something about what people in different parts of the world (and their own communities) believe just as it is necessary to teach them a little bit about other cultures and wotnot.

D1stant · 01-07-2011 5:35pm

Feck. Can I change my vote.

Religion should be hammered into the little feckers from creche upwards

I still remember my communion prep in 1976 repeating in unison after the alcoholic priest "Oh Jesus.. oh Jesus... we believe in you.... we believe in you... we love you.... we love you..."

Ah time for a beer

Tehachapi · 01-07-2011 5:36pm

philologos wrote:

I know a good number of Christians involved in IT / Software Development and indeed in scientific research.

They are in the minority, believe me. The issue of intelligence and career success have been raised numerous times in this thread already - Have a read of this article:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/2111174/Intelligent-people-less-likely-to-believe-in-God.html

I won't quote the whole thing as it's long enough but here's some important points:

A survey of Royal Society fellows found that only 3.3 per cent believed in God - at a time when 68.5 per cent of the general UK population described themselves as believers.

A separate poll in the 90s found only seven per cent of members of the American National Academy of Sciences believed in God

Professor Lynn said most primary school children believed in God, but as they entered adolescence - and their intelligence increased - many started to have doubts.

He told Times Higher Education magazine: "Why should fewer academics believe in God than the general population? I believe it is simply a matter of the IQ. Academics have higher IQs than the general population. Several Gallup poll studies of the general population have shown that those with higher IQs tend not to believe in God."

He said religious belief had declined across 137 developed nations in the 20th century at the same time as people became more intelligent.

Logical Fallacy · 01-07-2011 5:39pm

You seem to be arguing from the point that religion can only be thought from the point of view of making people believe in it.

This is flawed.

Religion, whether you agree with it or not, has been a very important factor in human development and especially in the development of culture. Not studying it would simply be inviting ignorance...which i am sure you wouldn't agree with either.

dvpower · 01-07-2011 5:39pm

Poll is ambiguous - does it mean teaching about religion or indoctrination in a particular religion?

Of course teaching about religions is reasonable, but it shouldn't take nearly as much time as we currently spend with religious indoctrination, which shouldn't be done in the state funded school system.

philologos · 01-07-2011 5:41pm

Techachapi: Again, I'm going to ask you to answer the question.

How does RE class lead to people not studying the natural sciences or IT later on?

As for your stats here's some more.

Tehachapi · 01-07-2011 5:42pm

dvpower wrote: »

Poll is ambiguous - does it mean teaching about religion or indoctrination in a particular religion?

Of course teaching about religions is reasonable, but it shouldn't take nearly as much time as we currently spend with religious indoctrination, which shouldn't be done in the state funded school system.

I meant indoctrination of a particular religion, such as we have in Ireland with teaching (forcing) primary school children into catholicism. I would edit the poll to reflect this but there doesn't seem to be an option.

Paparazzo · 01-07-2011 5:47pm

I'd love to see the results of a poll asking the question "did you take religion class serious?".
It was a small step up from a free class in my school.

Tehachapi · 01-07-2011 5:51pm

philologos wrote: »

How does RE class lead to people not studying the natural sciences or IT later on?

I said at the start it was a theory I have which I would like to discuss. Now you can answer me this - how does it BENEFIT childrens understanding of biology/physics in any way by teaching them creationism, walking on water, miracles, etc. All it does is confuse them when learning about science. Confusion leads to anger and resentment towards the education system.

Obviously I can't prove this at the moment, just like I can't prove gravity. But it's the only theory that makes sense at the moment - I'm not willing to jump off a building to test it out.

philologos · 01-07-2011 5:56pm

Sure you have a theory, but how does it work? Where is the correlation?

wes · 01-07-2011 5:56pm

Tehachapi wrote: »

Obviously I can't prove this at the moment, just like I can't prove gravity. But it's the only theory that makes sense at the moment - I'm not willing to jump off a building to test it out.

You can prove the existence of gravity via experimentation, here is an example (I chose the kids one due the nature of the thread

):

Kids Science Experiments - Gravity

So yes you can provide proof of gravity. What you can't seem to provide any proof of is anything to back up your theory, and you refuse to do so. So can't see how any meaningful conversation can be had without it.

Personally, I think World Relgions or something to that effect should be taught in schools, and if people want to join a Religion, they can go to a Church/Gurdwara/Mosque or where ever else.

Tehachapi · 01-07-2011 6:05pm

philologos wrote: »

Sure you have a theory, but how does it work? Where is the correlation?

Are you selectively ignoring my posts?

Answer the question in bold :

I said at the start it was a theory I have which I would like to discuss. Now you can answer me this - how does it BENEFIT childrens understanding of biology/physics in any way by teaching them creationism, walking on water, miracles, etc. All it does is confuse them when learning about science. Confusion leads to anger and resentment towards the education system.

Obviously I can't prove this at the moment, just like I can't prove gravity. But it's the only theory that makes sense at the moment - I'm not willing to jump off a building to test it out.

And in particular, not only how does it benefit them - but what is the point at all of teaching them that crap?

strobe · 01-07-2011 6:06pm

It should be an option in secondary school like history or music is. I hear in primary school now they have a 'general studies' module. So they should probably do a little bit of religion in that, not as much as geography or history or anything but a little bit touching on the various religions would be a good idea to see if they would like to study it as a subject in secondary school.

7sr2z3fely84g5 · 01-07-2011 6:20pm

think it should be banned,causing more diversion than understanding.

philologos · 01-07-2011 6:26pm

Hank Hot Anklet wrote: »

think it should be banned,causing more diversion than understanding.

Is that you?

Logical Fallacy · 01-07-2011 6:36pm

Tehachapi wrote: »

I said at the start it was a theory I have which I would like to discuss. Now you can answer me this - how does it BENEFIT childrens understanding of biology/physics in any way by teaching them creationism, walking on water, miracles, etc. All it does is confuse them when learning about science. Confusion leads to anger and resentment towards the education system.

Obviously I can't prove this at the moment, just like I can't prove gravity. But it's the only theory that makes sense at the moment - I'm not willing to jump off a building to test it out.

Okay, so the root of you argument seems to be that you think students are retards.

I think you will find a lot of evidence to back you up on that front i have to say.

01-07-2011 6:50pm

Tehachapi wrote: »

I have a big problem with this, and believe it is destroying childrens blah blah blah

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PAcnDevkTnc

Round and round we go again.

Tough sh*t OP. Religion is taught in schools. Militant atheism isn't.

Wanna change that? It's been tried. By Stalin.

Sonnenblumen · 01-07-2011 6:52pm

Irish children have the right to learn 'Irish' ie Christian faiths. If you don't like it, leave. BTW, no disrespect to any other faiths is intended. I just don't get this universal creeping dilution of Irish culture/traditions.

Agnostics/Aetheists can play marbles.

c_man · 01-07-2011 6:55pm

Sonnenblumen wrote: »

I just don't get this universal creeping dilution of Irish culture/traditions.

You mean like Christians did to the Druids?

We didn't do science in Primary school. We did spend at least an hour daily learning 'facts' about God and what he does/doesn't like. Laughable really.

Knowledge economy baby :pac:

philologos · 01-07-2011 6:57pm

Tehachapi wrote: »

Are you selectively ignoring my posts?

Answer the question in bold :

Not at all. Your question is easily answered. Not everything is natural science. English isn't natural science, History isn't natural science, etc. Yet they are useful nonetheless.

By the by, I know no school in Ireland that teaches Young Earth Creationism. As for miracles, miracles are regarded as being supernatural anyway and as such it doesn't affect the observation of regular occurrences in the universe.

Tehachapi wrote: »

And in particular, not only how does it benefit them - but what is the point at all of teaching them that crap?

I would argue that learning about faith allows people to explore into what other people believe and also to work out what they themselves believe.

I don't share your view that it is crap any more than atheism or agnosticism is crap. If you only regard science as useful you might as well disregard everything that isn't science from literature to philosophy.

You still haven't answered my question. How is R.E class related to low participation in science courses at university?

dvpower · 01-07-2011 7:06pm

Sonnenblumen wrote: »

Irish children have the right to learn 'Irish' ie Christian faiths. If you don't like it, leave. BTW, no disrespect to any other faiths is intended. I just don't get this universal creeping dilution of Irish culture/traditions.

You don't mean disrepect to other faiths, but if they want a secular education system, they should leave?:eek: And go where? What about the non christian Irish (they're not really Irish, eh?)

Sonnenblumen wrote: »

Agnostics/Aetheists can play marbles.

At least you're consistent.

dvpower · 01-07-2011 7:08pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Wanna change that? It's been tried. By Stalin.

Stalin introduced a secular education system? The evil bastard!

St.Spodo · 01-07-2011 7:12pm

I did my leaving cert last year and for religion class, we were supplied with a book arguing moral issues from a Roman Catholic point of view. Indoctrination of the highest order. I never missed an opportunity to contradict the damn book. What made it even more annoying was that there was perhaps 7 or 8 non-Catholics.

Should religion be taught in schools?

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