Challenging My Moral Beliefs

Liam Byrne · 01-07-2011 11:25AM

metalfest wrote: »

Agree with your post, but I don't think you could set up a bill pay contract in someone else's name, just a ready to go phone I assume.

I'm not suggesting that they did. If the discount wasn't available to one person and was to another, then that discount could well be recorded on the OP's account, and the next time they want to avail of an offer they may not be able to because they have used their "loyalty discount".

Tipsy McSwagger · 01-07-2011 11:33AM

danslevent wrote: »

No matter what you twist and turn this, you stole from your friend.

That's a load of shyte. If she told her friend the phone had gone up 30 euro and took the money then that is stealing. She availed of a discount, and the fact she was doing her friend a favour meant she got a nice little reward for her troubles.

Seachmall · 01-07-2011 11:56AM

I think if you spent your own money on purchasing the phone and then sold it to her for full price that would be fair (as you used your discount to buy something with your money and agreed to sell it to her at an agreed price).

However it wasn't your money to decide who got the savings. You should have refused the discount and payed full price, instead you opted to take the discount and essentially charged her for use of it without her knowledge.

Now that you've used up the discount, which was your own choice, you've taken her money (money that she earned or saved herself) without her knowing. It doesn't matter if it's ultimately the same to her (because she intended to pay full price anyway) you still charged her for a service without telling her. It's like a restaurant sneaking in a "service charge" without informing the customer, it's bad practice.

ronan45 · 01-07-2011 11:59AM

Bit underhand...... Reminds me of a mate of mine.....

When you get a round in he accompanies you to the bar to lift 3 drinks ( like i cant do that) as soon as they are poured he lifts the drinks and brings them to the table making it look like hes the sound guy getting the round in looking after everyone lol

slum dog · 01-07-2011 12:11PM

sounds to me like honesty is the major issue here.

wasnt it machiavelli who was quoted as saying ''my poverty is a witness to my honesty...''

Seachmall · 01-07-2011 12:17PM

slum dog wrote: »

sounds to me like honesty is the major issue here.

As it was her money she had the right to decide who it went to. You took it upon yourself to decide for her, which you had no right to do.

If I gave money to someone to give to a charity I would be pretty angry if they pocketed it. You could argue that I had agreed to give the money away [and am none-the-wiser] and the charity were not expecting to receive the money [and are none-the-wiser] but that person still deprived me of a fundamental right of property ownership.

Honesty is an issue, but respecting her rights is another one.

slum dog · 01-07-2011 12:22PM

Seachmall wrote: »

As it was her money she had the right to decide who it went to. You took it upon yourself to decide for her, which you had no right to do.

If I gave money to someone to give to a charity I would be pretty angry if they pocketed it. You could argue that I had agreed to give the money away [and am none-the-wiser] and the charity were not expecting to receive the money [and are none-the-wiser] but that person still deprived me of a fundamental right of property ownership.

Honesty is an issue, but respecting her rights is another one.

so honesty is a human requirement these days is it?

Professor Knowall · 01-07-2011 12:23PM

This is hideous behaviour. Go and give the money back to her. Pretend you forgot, anything, just do the right thing. Where is this going to lead to? not handing in a wallet that you find because you have adopted a new 'finders keepers' ethos? This is the slippery slope. Do something about it.

metalfest · 01-07-2011 12:25PM

slum dog wrote: »

so honesty is a human requirement these days is it?

it should be, more like common decency, for example if it was the other way around what would you prefer?

Seachmall · 01-07-2011 12:25PM

slum dog wrote: »

so honesty is a human requirement these days is it?

I made no reference to honesty.

When you purchase or earn something you reserve the right to give it away and the right to choose who you give it away to.

She made the choice to give her money away in exchange for the phone and she made the choice who to give it to [the store].

You took advantage of your position as the middle man to over-write her decision of the latter and took E30 without her knowledge.

You had no right to do that, regardless if she's none the wiser.

AckwelFoley · 01-07-2011 02:29PM

slum dog wrote: »

what comes around goes around anyway. fortune isnt governed by past actions

That would be the more logical way of thinking about it - but it doesnt explain how some people have such terrible fortune, im not talking of one case of bad luck, but repeated bad luck.

I should have being killed a few weeks ago in an accident with a machine and previous to that a few years ago, crippled when i fell from the roof of the house, in both cases, i didnt receive as much as a bruise.. ive never done anything bad to anyone on purpose and treat others how i would wish them to treat me.

What will be will be, and perhaps its the luck of the draw, but perhaps theres more to it

michellemuncher · 01-07-2011 03:01PM

This is so wrong and sad on so many counts it is almost funny. But I have a strong feeling that this incident did not happen, that you are making it up to get attention or to get people to answer questions for you for a college essay or something. A shop assistant does not give out discounts without explanation. Was the phone a pay as you go? You have omitted a lot of significant details. If the story is true, you have decided to try to justify stealing from your friend by using moral ethics. Morals exist because without them society would crumble and life would be miserable. Humans need other humans to survive and be happy. Co-operation not competition leads to a rewarding and fulfilling life. If you think you don't need friends or people to care about you then you are going about it the right way. If I was your friend, I would cut you out of my life straight away. And even if your friend does not find out about this particular incident, they will eventually if your thieving behaviour continues.

Some questions for you to consider:
How would you feel if the friend did the same to you?
What does friendship mean to you?
Does keeping the money make you happy? Esp considering this - "I realised my friend would be very happy once she discovered she had saved herself the 30 pound"
Do you condone stealing from friends? From family? From a bank?
Do you want to be a robber when you grow up? Or a capitalist?

Ps. I think you should have posted this story in the Stingiest People thread.

up for anything · 01-07-2011 03:07PM

€30 smacks of 30 pieces of silver. Story untrue.

Liam Byrne · 01-07-2011 03:27PM

Seachmall wrote: »

She made the choice to give her money away in exchange for the phone and she made the choice who to give it to [the store].

You left out the fact that as part of the above she chose that the phone was worth the advertised store price. She also quite obviously didn't choose to give it to the store because she gave it to the OP.

Seachmall wrote: »

You took advantage of your position as the middle man to over-write her decision of the latter and took E30 without her knowledge.

I presume you mean "over-ride" ? If so, and if he followed your suggestion, he would be over-riding her decision to pay €120 for the phone.

As I said, I personally would go 50/50 if the discount was as a direct result of me being involved. But those who are saying that the OP is somehow stealing are being ridiculous.

She chose to pay €120.
She got her phone for €120.

There's nothing whatsoever wrong with that.

Anything beyond that would be goodwill among friends.

Seachmall · 01-07-2011 04:00PM

Liam Byrne wrote: »

She also quite obviously didn't choose to give it to the store because she gave it to the OP.

With the expectation it would be going to the store. He was a middle-man, not the intended receiver.

She intended that money to go to the store. He decided to get a discount and pocket some of that money, her money, without her knowledge.

As I said, I personally would go 50/50 if the discount was as a direct result of me being involved. But those who are saying that the OP is somehow stealing are being ridiculous.

He took money that wasn't his. That is the definition of stealing. You can say he "sold his discount to her" but he didn't because a sale requires an agreement on both sides. He took the discount and that's his right, it's not his right to decide what to do with the remainder of her money.

She chose to pay €120.
She got her phone for €120.

It wasn't his money, he has no discretion in the matter as to who gets the money.

That's the whole point. She expected the money to go to the store.

If you give money to someone to give to charity expecting the return of feeling good and that person pockets the money that's a dickish thing. Sure, the person assumes it's gone to charity and feels good about it, and the charity doesn't care because it wasn't expecting it but the point boils down to the fact that the middle man pocketed money he had no discretion over. He had no say in the matter but took the money anyway.

Just answer me this:

Do you believe a person has the right to choose who their money goes to?

Ignore everything else, it comes down to whether or not you believe people have this right, everything else is just filler.

I say Yes, and it doesn't matter that she expected to pay E120 and she did pay E120, what matters is who she paid it to (because she has the right, in my opinion, to make that choice. OP doesn't.)

Liam Byrne · 01-07-2011 07:05PM

He didn't take money that "wasn't his"

He offered it to the shop, and the shop gave HIM a discount.

If it was a general discount/sale you have a point, albeit phrased pretty condescendingly above telling how YOU see it and ordering that we ignore everything else as if your view was gospel.

If it was a discount specifically for the OP, I've already said that I would have split the difference as his loyalty bonus had been used up.

But my point is that it is NOT stealing; she offered it to the shop through him and the shop gave HIM some of it back.

Tigger · 01-07-2011 07:17PM

so the op should tell the friend he go a cash back in the post for buying the phone

then the mate can decide to either split it or let the op have it

MungBean · 01-07-2011 07:50PM

Liam Byrne wrote: »

He didn't take money that "wasn't his"

He offered it to the shop, and the shop gave HIM a discount.

If it was a general discount/sale you have a point, albeit phrased pretty condescendingly above telling how YOU see it and ordering that we ignore everything else as if your view was gospel.

If it was a discount specifically for the OP, I've already said that I would have split the difference as his loyalty bonus had been used up.

But my point is that it is NOT stealing; she offered it to the shop through him and the shop gave HIM some of it back.

It wasnt a loyalty bonus. The OP has already stated that he doesnt know why he received a discount and assumes it was because the shop assistant was making amends for the argument that arose when his friend visited the shop previously.

The money wasnt his, he has no idea why there was a discount. His friend asked him to purchase a phone for her and gave him the money. The price was below the amount she gave him and he kept the difference, destroyed the receipt and lied to the friend.

It was fraud plain and simple. You can throw ifs and buts around and question morality and honesty all you like but at the end of the day the money was stolen.

OP your a thief and a sneak and you cant justify it.

MungBean · 01-07-2011 08:06PM

To put this in perspective. If the OP was asked by his employer to pay a bill woth 10,000 euro and given the money in cash to pay it. He went to the bank to pay the bill and discovered that the bill was only 9000 euro. He paid the 9k bill, kept the 1k and destroyed the evidence.

You telling me that he wouldnt be held accountable for that 1k if his employer found out and decided to prosecute ? Of course he would, its theft. Why is this any different ?

FesterBeatty · 01-07-2011 08:19PM

Hope your 'mate' is not a boards.ie member

RussellTuring · 01-07-2011 08:22PM

OP, you essentially agreed to buy the phone on behalf of your friend as a favour; unless you agreed beforehand that your fee would be whatever was left over from the purchase, you stole it.

What do you think would happen to your relationship if she ever found out what happened? How do you think you would feel if you found out it happened to you?

Challenging My Moral Beliefs

Comments