School Class Snobbery

Naikon · 30-06-2011 12:22PM #1

I remember to this day how poor performance on the school entrance exam banished my ass to one of the worst/weakest classes in the entire school. A minority of the people from that class are now in jail or dead. The teaching standards were diabolical. Teachers missing for weeks at a time close to exams. Crazy looking back.

Why do some state schools still get away with this? Is it that hard to treat people equally even in the face of varying ability(or maybe perhaps, a bad exam day?). It still angers me to this day how little can be done to remove ****ty underperforming teachers from school. Class division should not exist at the secondary school level. Do you agree?

Nonsense like this should be consigned to the history books. It's 2011 ffs. I believe it's a Pretty sick mentality to presume weaker students are less likely to succeed, thus leading to a reduction in teaching standards for that given class. tl;dr - Do you feel seriously let down by your school in terms of standards?

</rant of the day>

Biggins · 30-06-2011 12:24PM

Naikon wrote: »

...Do you feel seriously let down by your school in terms of standards?

Speaking personally, the school system was good - just some of the teachers at the time (Christian Brothers) were right bastard thugs in gowns.
I have a lot more respect for the teachers of today and what they are up against.

Naikon · 30-06-2011 12:29PM

Biggins wrote: »

Speaking personally, the school system was good - just some of the teachers at the time (Christian Brothers) were right bastard thugs in gowns.

Yeah, it's easy for me to complain, but I know the carry on back then really was something else. I have heard stories of these fcukers using belts, canes, and hurleys to hit people. How they got away with these antics, I don't know.

ImpossibleDuck · 30-06-2011 12:34PM

Naikon wrote: »

I remember to this day how poor performance on the school entrance exam banished my ass to one of the worst/weakest classes in the entire school. A minority of the people from that class are now in jail or dead. The teaching standards were diabolical. Teachers missing for weeks at a time close to exams. Crazy looking back.

Why do some state schools still get away with this? Is it that hard to treat people equally even in the face of varying ability(or maybe perhaps, a bad exam day?). It still angers me to this day how little can be done to remove ****ty underperforming teachers from school. Class division should not exist at the secondary school level. Do you agree?

Nonsense like this should be consigned to the history books. It's 2011 ffs. I believe it's a Pretty sick mentality to presume weaker students are less likely to succeed, thus leading to a reduction in teaching standards for that given class. tl;dr - Do you feel seriously let down by your school in terms of standards?

</rant of the day>

Although I absolutely agree with you, it can have the opposite effect. I was a bad wee f*cker up until 2nd Year (in 5th now) when I was put in one of the top classes and since then, my behaviour and results improved dramatically. It can have a very positive effect but I always feel sorry for the ones stuck in the low classes, especially if they are intelligent.

Wasted potential; welcome to the Irish schooling system.

Kevin Duffy · 30-06-2011 12:35PM

I agree there are some poor teachers and elements of the sytem need fundamental reform, but from getting a fairly in-depth insight into teaching over a few years, I think far more of the problems come from poor parenting and people seeing schools at all levels as state-provided babysitting services.

Logical Fallacy · 30-06-2011 12:35PM

Naikon wrote: »

Do you feel seriously let down by your school in terms of standards?

In all honesty, not really. The school i was in did the same, the stronger teachers would take the better students and the classes were broken into A,B,C,D etc, A were considering the better students and it got worse as you went along.

Being honest i was in the A classes for all my subjects simply because i have a good memory and learning by rote was particularly difficult for me thankfully. It was just a case of read the stuff and feed it back to the teachers.

There were some issues in 6th year when I wanted to drop Honours Irish and French. I didn't need the points and did see why i should bust my ass on two subjects like that when i could focus more on the things i found easier and achieve a better mark. The school made it quite hard to do this...even though it was really none of their concern.

I have to say, i can't remember anyone in my school being really stupid or lacking intelligence. I think at the time i might have thought they were, or i think they wanted to imply they were as when you are young there is that ideal that being too clever is not cool and doing too well in school is certainly not cool.

amen · 30-06-2011 12:38PM

Class division should not exist at the secondary school leve

of course it should. Why someone who say is very good at Maths/Science and who want to do medicine be stuck with someone who is poor at Maths. Do you intend for the teacher to teach Lower and Higher (and maybe even Foundation level) in the one class?

Sometimes you just need to grade classed based on ability. I would agree though that for classed such as Religion, Civics there is no need.

Following on from your analogy there is no need for grading in anything, we should have races, shouldn't pay those who do a good job more etc.

ImpossibleDuck · 30-06-2011 12:41PM

Logical Fallacy wrote: »

There were some issues in 6th year when I wanted to drop Honours Irish and French. I didn't need the points and did see why i should bust my ass on two subjects like that when i could focus more on the things i found easier and achieve a better mark. The school made it quite hard to do this...even though it was really none of their concern.

What is up with this??? It should be your own choice. I'm being made to do Honours French at the minute even though my college course only needs about 350 points which is modest to say the least and I am overachieving in all my other subjects but I dislike French and would rather see an A or B ordinary on my CV that a D or an E in French (For a subject that won't even be counted in my 6 subjects anyway!)

Naikon · 30-06-2011 12:48PM

amen wrote: »

of course it should. Why someone who say is very good at Maths/Science and who want to do medicine be stuck with someone who is poor at Maths. Do you intend for the teacher to teach Lower and Higher (and maybe even Foundation level) in the one class?

Sometimes you just need to grade classed based on ability. I would agree though that for classed such as Religion, Civics there is no need.

Following on from your analogy there is no need for grading in anything, we should have races, shouldn't pay those who do a good job more etc.

Maybe not at Leaving cert level, but pidgin holing people at a very young age is totally out of order. Putting people down at that age is bordering on abuse imo. I was told I would never get into college despite being in second year. I proved these peope wrong. It's no wonder I am distrusting of authority in general, when you have situations like the above still happening today. I wasn't even a trouble maker! This crap still happens today, I know this because the very same comments are being thrown around to students, yet the VEC does not give a rats ass.

Have you considered people percieved to be "weak" may not have developed their skills yet? Why do we have Mature Student places? For the craic?

stovelid · 30-06-2011 12:49PM

Naikon wrote: »

I remember to this day how poor performance on the school entrance exam

It's known as being thick.

Logical Fallacy · 30-06-2011 12:50PM

Naikon wrote: »

Maybe not at Leaving cert level, but pidgin holing people at a very young age is totally out of order. Late Bloomers are at a disadvantage here. Putting people down at that age is bordering on abuse imo. I was told I would never get into college despite being in second year. I proved these peope wrong.

It's no wonder I am distrusting of authority in general, when you have situations like the above still happening today. I wasn't even a real trouble maker!

It always struck me as a little weird in my school that the better teachers were not the ones teaching the students that might have an issue with a certain subject.

SEPT 23 1989 · 30-06-2011 12:53PM

The B class had all the fun:cool:

OutlawPete · 30-06-2011 12:56PM

I did very well at school, mostly A's, B's and C's. but I would not like to have had me as a pupil. I caused complete chaos. Booby trapping teachers, throwing fun-snaps at the black board, listen to my walkman (whole class was doing that at one stage almost). We had this system of breaking apart headphones and sliding one of the foam earpieces down the sleeve and so it just looked as if you wearing leaning on your palm. However, what you would be doing was listening to W.A.S.P F**K Like A Beast. Eating during class became an obsession too. Unwrapping a Chewit or a Bazooka took a remarkable level of dexterity and skill, of which I was excelled in :cool:

hardCopy · 30-06-2011 12:57PM

OP, it sounds like the problem in your school was with crap teachers rather than with streaming.

IMO streaming is good, bad teachers are bad and should be sacked.

dlofnep · 30-06-2011 12:58PM

Agreed.

I went from all honours in the junior cert, to being shoved into the LCA because of an incident. I was unjustly expelled, and when they decided to let me back in - they said all the places left were in the Leaving Cert Applied.

I was dumbfounded by the level of teaching. I was learning maths that I had learned in primary school. I remember going from honours Irish, to learning basic words like cow, and pig. I felt completely disillusioned with the school and lost all interest in it - spending the majority of my days on the duck, getting stoned because I just couldn't be arsed anymore with it.

I didn't correct it until I hit 23, and applied to college as a mature student where I got a degree. I remember a few people in my class at the time were pretty intelligent, and I couldn't understand how they got to be in the LCA.

Naikon · 30-06-2011 01:01PM

hardCopy wrote: »

OP, it sounds like the problem in your school was with crap teachers rather than with streaming.

IMO streaming is good, bad teachers are bad and should be sacked.

One of the teachers I had was sacked. I won't go into it, but suffice to say, it was not a simple case of misconduct.

mikemac · 30-06-2011 01:02PM

Naikon wrote: »

Class division should not exist at the secondary school level.

Then the entire class goes at the rate of the weakest members

Naikon · 30-06-2011 01:06PM

amen wrote: »

Following on from your analogy there is no need for grading in anything, we should have races, shouldn't pay those who do a good job more etc.

What is a "good job"? Making more money for your superiors? I never said there should be no grading, it's just that this class snobbery should be removed. You did not address the fact that in general, poor teaching standards exist in the lower classes, whereas higher teaching standards exist in the higher classes. Should that not be the other way around?

Naikon · 30-06-2011 01:10PM

dlofnep wrote: »

Agreed.

I went from all honours in the junior cert, to being shoved into the LCA because of an incident. I was unjustly expelled, and when they decided to let me back in - they said all the places left were in the Leaving Cert Applied.

I was dumbfounded by the level of teaching. I was learning maths that I had learned in primary school. I remember going from honours Irish, to learning basic words like cow, and pig. I felt completely disillusioned with the school and lost all interest in it - spending the majority of my days on the duck, getting stoned because I just couldn't be arsed anymore with it.

I didn't correct it until I hit 23, and applied to college as a mature student where I got a degree. I remember a few people in my class at the time were pretty intelligent, and I couldn't understand how they got to be in the LCA.

This is a Canonical example of the sham that is the public school system. At least in Ireland. Seriously though, Well done mate.

Naikon · 30-06-2011 01:13PM

mikemac wrote: »

Then the entire class goes at the rate of the weakest members

This is an assumption. Not a fact. Yes, there should be classes to divide people at Foundation, Ordinary, and Higher level based on their subject choice along with their respective ability. That is not the issue here. I could not get into the decent honours classes simply because I was from 'class x', even though my JC results could have been taken on merit. How is that not discrimination? Parents have no choice when it comes to matter like this. Input is good, no matter what the source.

dlofnep · 30-06-2011 01:14PM

Naikon wrote: »

This is a Canonical example of the sham that is the public school system. At least in Ireland. Seriously though, Well done mate.

Cheers man. I can tell you the class really hurt my self-confidence, and self-worth.

Naikon · 30-06-2011 01:25PM

dlofnep wrote: »

Cheers man. I can tell you the class really hurt my self-confidence, and self-worth.

Well, you are a living proof that they were wrong:)

People WILL put you down on little more than a whim at times. The important thing to remember, is that you aren't the sum of their warped opinion. Once you have the ability to pick yourself up, dust yourself off, and move on, you are golden. If you can recognize you have a problem/issue that you can solve, that is half the battle. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

Not to sound cliche, but I am convinced you aren't doing anthing worth doing unless you **** up along the way. Know how to improve your prospects on your own terms. If you have a problem, fix it. Worry about stuff you can change. Caring about what others think really think about you is an exercise in absolute futility:cool:

The safest path in life tends to lead to mediocrity...

starviewadams · 30-06-2011 01:46PM

I was/am shít at maths so was chucked into the foundation class in 5th year,the class had 4 people in it including myself so it would've been fairly easier for the teacher to teach us dullards and improve us even a bit,but he was 2 years away from retirement and wasn't arsed so he put movies and comedy videos on for us instead,I still know Brendan Grace's 'Bottler' routine off by heart to this day.

My English teacher basicaly did the same thing aswell,I was pretty fed up with school so left after a few months of 5th year to go on the sites,these two lazy fúckers definitely helped make my decision a bit easier.

Victor Meldrew · 30-06-2011 01:50PM

This is rife in all schools,

My experiences relate to private schools, and in some cases the basket case teachers got the top streams. In Honours physics 70% of the class was getting grinds...

When I dropped from the 2nd (hons) maths stream to the 5th (pass) stream, which was for the not that bright, but good kids who would work.

I got an A1 in pass maths because the teacher let me move faster than the class once I stayed quiet. That Maths teacher got me an A in Science in my Inter-cert and was probably the best teacher I ever had.

Other private, high end schools have discriminated against pupils because individual teachers perceive that child X is not up to honours.

So it's common to both systems and is utterly dependent on the Pupil-teacher relationship

7sr2z3fely84g5 · 30-06-2011 02:28PM

My own old school,any messers in the top classes where moved down to the bottom groups,sometimes the teachers used to tell some of members of bottom group they where better off dropping out and not bother doing the leaving cert :eek:

bleg · 30-06-2011 02:29PM

Logical Fallacy wrote: »

I have to say, i can't remember anyone in my school being really stupid or lacking intelligence. I think at the time i might have thought they were, or i think they wanted to imply they were as when you are young there is that ideal that being too clever is not cool and doing too well in school is certainly not cool.

I remember 90% of the people in my school being absolutely stupid and really didn't give a ****.

Pherekydes · 30-06-2011 02:53PM

stovelid wrote: »

It's known as being thick.

You can have a bad day, can't you?

Weaker, slower or disruptive students should be separated from the others. They will hold up progress.

Wetai · 30-06-2011 03:17PM

Good thing they stopped the entrance exam where I went a couple of years before I started (I think it was stopped 1/2 years before I started, anyways) so I didn't get bundled straight into different classes based on it, because of that.

partyatmygaff · 30-06-2011 03:36PM

I'm glad I go to a school that doesn't have streamed classes. I did well in my entrance exam (98th Percentile IIRC) but we were all organised in classes based on our base class groups and not on our abilities. In second year we were placed in HL and OL classes and that's as far as it went in terms of class organisation. I never found any reason to complain and neither did anyone else.

Cuddlesworth · 30-06-2011 03:48PM

Somebody has to clean the toilets in future, those polish chaps are not going to stick around forever. Keep the dunce classes I say.

Naikon · 30-06-2011 04:03PM

amen wrote: »

of course it should. Why someone who say is very good at Maths/Science and who want to do medicine be stuck with someone who is poor at Maths. Do you intend for the teacher to teach Lower and Higher (and maybe even Foundation level) in the one class?

Sometimes you just need to grade classed based on ability. I would agree though that for classed such as Religion, Civics there is no need.

Following on from your analogy there is no need for grading in anything, we should have races, shouldn't pay those who do a good job more etc.

You miss the point entirely. There are Higher level messer classes in my old school. The problem is streaming, not the Higher/Ordinary distinction. I don't think it's right that more resources are pumped into
the upper class, whereas the peasants get very little. I never heard of teachers missing for weeks on end in the "better" classes. I honestly believe the lemon teachers were assigned to the messer classes as
a last resort, because they aren't much use apart from babysitting duties. The constant smell of grass was off putting to say the least.

School Class Snobbery

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