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Tribal bigotry is not a response to IRA violence -- it was there before

1235789

Comments

  • #122
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    PatsytheNazi wrote: »
    "I'm not sympathetic to them." Ya could have fooled me buddy :D The 26 and 6 county states came into existance becasue of the denial of democracy, not the application of it. A bit off topic, but the families of those murdered in Loughisland whose offical report was published yesterday, Bloody Sunday and the Dublin bombings of 1974 etc wouldn't look at Britain thru the rose tinted glasses that you and too often Myers does " the UK is a freedom protecting society " - and neither would the thousands of families of the dead and injured in Iraq either. Try and get the blinkers off sometime.

    That's not true though. The partition occurred because the people in the 6 counties didn't want to be a part of the Republic, much like how Kosovo and Montenegro separated from Serbia during the last decade. Many Serbs are very annoyed about this development but ultimately it was up to the Kosovans to decide this.

    It depends on where you draw the line. If you really wanted to you could say that the Republic is undemocratic because the majority of people in the UK (inc Ireland at that time) didn't support it. It depends on when and where you separate. I just apply that principle to separate Northern Ireland from the Republic.

    I'm talking about Britain in the 21st century, not Britain during the 70's or 60's. So yes, Britain is a freedom protecting society in 2011.


  • #123
    theboss80
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,838 ✭✭✭theboss80


    philologos wrote: »
    That's not true though. The partition occurred because the people in the 6 counties didn't want to be a part of the Republic, .

    Eh what?


  • #124
    Dudess
    Closed Accounts Posts: 37,214 ✭✭✭✭Dudess


    It's frustrating when people effectively say a respect for the positions of moderate unionists who want to remain in the UK therefore means support for hardline loyalism.


  • #125
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    theboss80 wrote: »
    Eh what?

    1920 - The Government of Ireland Act.


  • #126
    PatsytheNazi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,260 ✭✭✭PatsytheNazi


    philologos wrote: »
    That's not true though. The partition occurred because the people in the 6 counties didn't want to be a part of the Republic, much like how Kosovo and Montenegro separated from Serbia during the last decade. Many Serbs are very annoyed about this development but ultimately it was up to the Kosovans to decide this.

    It depends on where you draw the line. If you really wanted to you could say that the Republic is undemocratic because the majority of people in the UK (inc Ireland at that time) didn't support it. It depends on when and where you separate. I just apply that principle to separate Northern Ireland from the Republic.

    I'm talking about Britain in the 21st century, not Britain during the 70's or 60's. So yes, Britain is a freedom protecting society in 2011.
    In a word - bollox. Pre partition Ireland was always treated as a single entity, eg various Govt trade acts down the century's were applied on an all Ireland basis, the Royal Irish Constabulary was an all Ireland body and not two police forces for a 26 and 6 county administration, conscription was introduced in Britain during the war but not applied to any part of Ireland. Clearly Ireland was seen and treated as a single and diffferent entity.

    The six county statelet in the northeast is a secterian gerrymander contirived to maintain British occupation of a part of Ireland, it has nothing to do with fairness or demcracy. Britain ddin't partition the country out of a benign, benevolent sense of 'fairplay' blah, blah. The fact that your posts are getting thanked by a loyalist, KeithAFC says it all. As I said take off the blinkers, maybe you've been swallowing too much of Myers, Harris's rubbish etc down the years :rolleyes:


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  • #127
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    You can whine about it all you like PatsyTheNazi but it's a sound argument which uses examples from other comparable situations in the Balkans. It's no more a gerrymander than Montenegro or Kosovo are. You've presented no logical argument against this other than to repeat your opinion which is already crystallised.

    I haven't been swallowing anyone's rubbish. I'm an independent thinker. I don't believe in pseudo-history. I look to the facts and determine what is more reasonable. In comparison with other political situations the partition was entirely reasonable.


  • #128
    PatsytheNazi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,260 ✭✭✭PatsytheNazi


    Dudess wrote: »
    It's frustrating when people effectively say a respect for the positions of moderate unionists who want to remain in the UK therefore means support for hardline loyalism.
    As it was once said about the relationship between unionism and loyalism - " we're with you now, but if you get caught we don't know you ".

    Peter " AK47 " Robinson http://overthebridgeni.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/robinson.jpg


  • #129
    Dudess
    Closed Accounts Posts: 37,214 ✭✭✭✭Dudess


    :confused:

    That doesn't apply to all moderate unionists. And Peter Robinson seems to be anything but.


  • #130
    theboss80
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,838 ✭✭✭theboss80


    philologos wrote: »
    That's not true though. The partition occurred because the people in the 6 counties didn't want to be a part of the Republic, .
    philologos wrote: »
    1920 - The Government of Ireland Act.

    Are you actually serious? That was an act enforced by Westminster partitioning
    Ireland and had nothing to do with the people wanting or not wanting to be part of a Republic.


  • #131
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    theboss80 wrote: »
    Are you actually serious? That was an act enforced by Westminster partitioning
    Ireland and had nothing to do with the people wanting or not wanting to be part of a Republic.

    And the reasoning behind the partition was that most people in the 6 counties didn't want to be included in the Free State.


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  • #132
    PatsytheNazi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,260 ✭✭✭PatsytheNazi


    philologos wrote: »
    You can whine about it all you like PatsyTheNazi but it's a sound argument which uses examples from other comparable situations in the Balkans. It's no more a gerrymander than Montenegro or Kosovo are. You've presented no logical argument against this other than to repeat your opinion which is already crystallised.

    I haven't been swallowing anyone's rubbish. I'm an independent thinker. I don't believe in pseudo-history. I look to the facts and determine what is more reasonable. In comparison with other political situations the partition was entirely reasonable.
    I've presented prefectly sound arguements, you haven't presented a single legitmate reason that partition should have been forced on the country but tried to dress it up as the act of a benign, benvolent charity :rolleyes:
    But as I asked before, why are you so sympathetic to unionsim/loyalism ? A weekend down with the gof club unionsts perhaps ?


  • #133
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    PatsytheNazi wrote: »
    I've presented prefectly sound arguements, you haven't presented a single legitmate reason that partition should have been forced on the country but tried to dress it up as the act of a benign, benvolent charity :rolleyes:
    But as I asked before, why are you so sympathetic to unionsim/loyalism ? A weekend down with the gof club unionsts perhaps ?

    What sound argument? Posting that you think it is a gerrymander when this has occurred legitimately in several nations in the last decade.

    Again, I think the Republic as it stands is a great idea. Trying to impose that on others who overwhelmingly don't want it is a bad idea. I respect their wishes because it is their democratic decision that counts. I have a lot of respect for Britain, and I also have a lot of respect for the Republic. I don't claim to be a huge patriot by any means.


  • #134
    R P McMurphy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,129 ✭✭✭R P McMurphy


    philologos wrote: »
    And the reasoning behind the partition was that most people in the 6 counties didn't want to be included in the Free State.

    The majority in 2 or 3 of the 6 would have wanted to join the 26


  • #135
    PatsytheNazi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,260 ✭✭✭PatsytheNazi


    philologos wrote: »
    And the reasoning behind the partition was that most people in the 6 counties didn't want to be included in the Free State.
    Would you not think the reasoning behind partition was that the British govt thought it was the only way of holding onto a part of the country and nothing to do with democracy or benevolence ?


  • #136
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    PatsytheNazi wrote: »
    Would you not think the reasoning behind partition was that the British govt thought it was the only way of holding onto a part of the country and nothing to do with democracy or benevolence ?

    I think Ireland was more a headache to Lloyd George. If he could have gotten rid of it legitimately I'm sure he would have. Pressures to hold on to the Empire and pressures to keep the people of Northern Ireland happy were largely behind keeping it in the Kingdom.


  • #137
    PatsytheNazi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,260 ✭✭✭PatsytheNazi


    philologos wrote: »
    What sound argument? Posting that you think it is a gerrymander when this has occurred legitimately in several nations in the last decade.

    Again, I think the Republic as it stands is a great idea. Trying to impose that on others who overwhelmingly don't want it is a bad idea. I respect their wishes because it is their democratic decision that counts. I have a lot of respect for Britain, and I also have a lot of respect for the Republic. I don't claim to be a huge patriot by any means.
    I'll give you the definiton of a gerrymander as obviously you don't seem to know what it is -


    1. to divide the constituencies of (a voting area) so as to give one party an unfair advantage 2. to manipulate or adapt to one's advantage

    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/gerrymander


  • #138
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    PatsyTheNazi: Why was it reasonable for Kosovo and Montenegro to split from Serbia then?


  • #139
    PatsytheNazi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,260 ✭✭✭PatsytheNazi


    philologos wrote: »
    I think Ireland was more a headache to Lloyd George. If he could have gotten rid of it legitimately I'm sure he would have. Pressures to hold on to the Empire and pressures to keep the people of Northern Ireland happy were largely behind keeping it in the Kingdom.
    Obviously that didn't include the nationalists in the six counties !!! ( of which certainly Fermangh and probably Tyrone and Derry had nationalist majority's in 1922).

    Genius :)


  • #140
    getz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,255 ✭✭✭getz


    PatsytheNazi wrote: »
    Would you not think the reasoning behind partition was that the British govt thought it was the only way of holding onto a part of the country and nothing to do with democracy or benevolence ?
    it was written in with a mr collins that if those i the north did not want it they could reject it or opt out, the free states goverment excepted it and got the overwhelming ok from its citizens by being voted in,also do you know that i 1940 ,the british goverment offered the free states northern ireland,and they rejected it ?


  • #141
    who the fug
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,041 ✭✭✭who the fug


    getz wrote: »
    it was written in with a mr collins that if those i the north did not want it they could reject it or opt out, the free states goverment excepted it and got the overwhelming ok from its citizens by being voted in,also do you know that i 1940 ,the british goverment offered the free states northern ireland,and they rejected it ?


    No they did not, a vague promise that at the end of the war, if Ireland came in, the wind was from the north east and pigs might fly


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  • #142
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Could you answer my question about Kosovo and Montenegro PatsytheNazi?


  • #143
    theboss80
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,838 ✭✭✭theboss80


    philologos wrote: »
    And the reasoning behind the partition was that most people in the 6 counties didn't want to be included in the Free State.

    The last general election pre partition was in 1918 where Sinn Fein received 46.9% of the vote equating to 73 seats of the 105 on offer which lead to them abstaining from Westminster declaring an Independent Ireland. That was an All Ireland vote and should not take into account what particular counties "want". What happened after that? Long story short Westminster introduces black and tans , War of Independence and then forced partition by Westminster.


  • #144
    getz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,255 ✭✭✭getz


    who the fug wrote: »
    No they did not, a vague promise that at the end of the war, if Ireland came in, the wind was from the north east and pigs might fly
    history records that ,churchill offered and de valera rejected.no but but buts


  • #145
    PatsytheNazi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,260 ✭✭✭PatsytheNazi


    philologos wrote: »
    PatsyTheNazi: Why was it reasonable for Kosovo and Montenegro to split from Serbia then?
    Well your getting very much off topic but Kosovo and Montenegro - don't know very little about them. Are they islands that were treated as a single entity but then forcibally partitioned and now we're been told by an individual that it was democratic and for the greater good as just 18% of the population wanted it ?


  • #146
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    theboss80 wrote: »
    The last general election pre partition was in 1918 where Sinn Fein received 46.9% of the vote equating to 73 seats of the 105 on offer which lead to them abstaining from Westminster declaring an Independent Ireland. That was an All Ireland vote and should not take into account what particular counties "want". What happened after that? Long story short Westminster introduces black and tans , War of Independence and then forced partition by Westminster.

    It was an All Ireland vote. Not the vote taken in the 6 counties.

    If you answer my question about Kosovo and Montenegro you might see the point I am making. It isn't specific to Ireland. It is logical and can be applied to all jurisdictions. Its reasonable to partition where there is a significant portion of the population in disagreement with being in a certain political entity.


  • #147
    KeithAFC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,239 ✭✭✭✭KeithAFC


    theboss80 wrote: »
    The last general election pre partition was in 1918 where Sinn Fein received 46.9% of the vote equating to 73 seats of the 105 on offer which lead to them abstaining from Westminster declaring an Independent Ireland. That was an All Ireland vote and should not take into account what particular counties "want". What happened after that? Long story short Westminster introduces black and tans , War of Independence and then forced partition by Westminster.
    The Ulster conflict goes beyond what the whole island wants. Always has.


  • #148
    PatsytheNazi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,260 ✭✭✭PatsytheNazi


    getz wrote: »
    it was written in with a mr collins that if those i the north did not want it they could reject it or opt out, the free states goverment excepted it and got the overwhelming ok from its citizens by being voted in,also do you know that i 1940 ,the british goverment offered the free states northern ireland,and they rejected it ?
    Ah come on Fred, your not using that old one yet again :D


  • #149
    R P McMurphy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,129 ✭✭✭R P McMurphy


    Notr wanting to answer for Patsythe Nazi but the situation in the balkans is not comparable. Montenegro was a separate political entity prior to absorbtion into Yugoslavia. Had changed hands many times but still a distinct geo-political area. Kosovo is far from resolved and remains disputed. I would say will eventually be fully recognised as a separate state as part of Serbian assession talks


  • #150
    R P McMurphy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,129 ✭✭✭R P McMurphy


    philologos wrote: »
    It was an All Ireland vote. Not the vote taken in the 6 counties.

    If you answer my question about Kosovo and Montenegro you might see the point I am making. It isn't specific to Ireland. It is logical and can be applied to all jurisdictions. Its reasonable to partition where there is a significant portion of the population in disagreement with being in a certain political entity.

    Going by that logic should the counties in the north with nationalist majorities not aso have been included with the 26


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  • #151
    theboss80
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,838 ✭✭✭theboss80


    philologos wrote: »
    It was an All Ireland vote. Not the vote taken in the 6 counties.
    .

    You see the problem with that is there was no such thing as "the six counties" as we know them now when that vote took place. It was a 32 county vote in 1918.


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