Tribal bigotry is not a response to IRA violence -- it was there before

PatsytheNazi · 23-06-2011 3:25pm #1

Interesting article by Kevin Myers of all people where he denounces unionism in no uncertain terms. Could Myarse of all people be turning into a nationalist ?

" Paradoxically, the rabble-rousing leaders of these drunken louts have usually been teetotal clergymen, such as Roaring Hanna and Ian Paisley. The compulsory Sunday closing of pubs was once a primary element of their identity -- provided that their own drinking clubs were allowed to remain open. Logic is never the strong point of any strongly held tribal identity, but particularly so for these people, who have remained locked in a historical enigma wherein they are 'British', though living in Ireland, and generally lawless though they 'loyally' support the Crown, and sober in their general political aspiration, though usually enough drunk at the time. "
http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/kevin-myers/kevin-myers-tribal-bigotry-is-not-a-response-to-ira-violence-it-was-there-before-2803409.html

stovelid · 23-06-2011 3:32pm

I thought KM was a deluded neo-Unionist West-Brit.

Or is that only when he bashes the 'Ra?

steddyeddy · 23-06-2011 3:38pm

Denoucning sectarianisim does not make a person anti unionist or pro nationalist it basically means hes not bigoted.

Biggins · 23-06-2011 3:42pm

PatsytheNazi wrote: »

...Could Myarse of all people be turning into a nationalist ?

No, it's Myers being typical Myers.

steddyeddy · 23-06-2011 3:43pm

He is quite right though the sectarianism is seperate to an anti ira stance its bigotry pure and simple. Look at the uvf's victims 90% of whom were civilians.

PatsytheNazi · 23-06-2011 3:49pm

stovelid wrote: »

I thought KM was a deluded neo-Unionist West-Brit.

Or is that only when he bashes the 'Ra?

Yes, that's what got me, Myarse usual only has a go at Irish nationalism, but in this article he almost portraying SF and the IRA in a positive light " There is a congenial, indeed government-backed myth, in both Scotland and in Ireland, that "one side is bad as another": that Sinn Fein-IRA are pretty much the same as the UDA/UVF. This is simply untrue. There is no republican equivalent to the Romper Rooms of the UDA "

Paddy De Plasterer · 23-06-2011 3:50pm

He adopts some unusual stances at times- like having a go at Churchill. No matter what one thinks of Churchill his record in standing up to Hitler after fall of France, and before USA entered was heroic.

Biggins · 23-06-2011 3:51pm

PatsytheNazi wrote: »

Yes, that's what got me, Myarse usual only has a go at Irish nationalism, but in this article he almost portraying SF and the IRA in a positive light " There is a congenial, indeed government-backed myth, in both Scotland and in Ireland, that "one side is bad as another": that Sinn Fein-IRA are pretty much the same as the UDA/UVF. This is simply untrue. There is no republican equivalent to the Romper Rooms of the UDA "

That's this months view, next month chances are he'll be on the opposite side.
I personally chose to read his words and views with extreme caution.

Bottle_of_Smoke · 23-06-2011 3:52pm

There is a congenial, indeed government-backed myth, in both Scotland and in Ireland, that "one side is bad as another": that Sinn Fein-IRA are pretty much the same as the UDA/UVF. This is simply untrue. There is no republican equivalent to the Romper Rooms of the UDA, wherein men were routinely beaten to a pulp by loyalist thugs, and from which both the term and the practice became celebrated. And then there was Lenny Murphy and his merry gang, the Shankill Butchers, who for years in the mid-1970s abducted, tortured and murdered Catholics -- usually by cutting their victims' throats

Not a paragraph I would have ever expected from Myers. Due to his numerous anti-Sinn Fein/IRA, pro-british, anti-immigration articles he's considered a bit of a hero amongst some hardline loyalists. Not when they see this though

Paddy De Plasterer · 23-06-2011 3:52pm

PatsytheNazi wrote: »

Yes, that's what got me, Myarse usual only has a go at Irish nationalism, but in this article he almost portraying SF and the IRA in a positive light " There is a congenial, indeed government-backed myth, in both Scotland and in Ireland, that "one side is bad as another": that Sinn Fein-IRA are pretty much the same as the UDA/UVF. This is simply untrue. There is no republican equivalent to the Romper Rooms of the UDA "

what about Jean McConville and the way the Ra used torture people including their own when Scappateechi used get at them - torture before shooting them dead and dumping bodies in bags along ditches ?

Sanjuro · 23-06-2011 3:53pm

stovelid wrote: »

I thought KM was a deluded neo-Unionist West-Brit.

I thought KM was just a professional troll who will say anything to get any reaction, just so long as somebody is looking at him.

Also, a twat.

mikemac · 23-06-2011 3:54pm

Article written
Debate stirred up on Irelands largest message board
Sir Anthony O'Reilly is happy
Show me the money! :cool: Large salary justified
Next week he'll take the opposite view and we'll be debating it here again

What does Romper Rooms mean?

Bottle_of_Smoke · 23-06-2011 3:55pm

PatsytheNazi wrote: »

Interesting article by Kevin Myers of all people where he denounces unionism in no uncertain terms. Could Myarse of all people be turning into a nationalist ?

Not a chance. There's actually no pro-Sinn Fein/IRA views whatsoever in this, just pointing out the romper room stuff made loyalists violence worse.

Criticising loyalists does not mean pro-nationalism.

Bottle_of_Smoke · 23-06-2011 3:57pm

mikemac wrote: »

What does Romper Rooms mean?

Catholics would be kidknapped by loyalist paramilitaries then brought to social clubs where they would be rompered ie beaten slowly to death for the entertainment of the crowd.

pragmatic1 · 23-06-2011 4:18pm

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Catholics would be kidknapped by loyalist paramilitaries then brought to social clubs where they would be rompered ie beaten slowly to death for the entertainment of the crowd.

Did that actually happen. I really dont like that section of the protestant community.

RichieC · 23-06-2011 4:20pm

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Catholics would be kidknapped by loyalist paramilitaries then brought to social clubs where they would be rompered ie beaten slowly to death for the entertainment of the crowd.

:pac:

seriously?

squod · 23-06-2011 4:23pm

Only surprised KM said this. There's a palpable bigotry in NI.

sollar · 23-06-2011 4:25pm

RichieC wrote: »

:pac:

seriously?

I don't know about the social club or even if there were spectators present. But a few were abducted and taken to romper rooms and beaten and killed.

Bottle_of_Smoke · 23-06-2011 4:26pm

RichieC wrote: »

:pac:

seriously?

That happened yes, places where alcohol is served and pool tables etc, the beatings happened in these clubs, with members of the crowd joinging in, cheering etc.

Though it also referred to the likes of this, where there wasn't neccesarily a crowd http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sunday-life/i-heard-mum-beg-for-mercy-14671410.html

sollar · 23-06-2011 4:29pm

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Though it also referred to the likes of this, where there wasn't neccesarily a crowd http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sunday-life/i-heard-mum-beg-for-mercy-14671410.html

That was a protestant woman??

Bottle_of_Smoke · 23-06-2011 4:31pm

Erm yea . . and? I was more trying to explain the style of killing referred to

Zebra3 · 23-06-2011 4:35pm

pragmatic1 wrote: »

Did that actually happen.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shankill_Butchers

Grim stuff.

Dudess · 23-06-2011 6:55pm

PatsytheNazi wrote: »

Interesting article by Kevin Myers of all people where he denounces unionism in no uncertain terms. Could Myarse of all people be turning into a nationalist ?

He isn't denouncing unionism (plenty of unionism is very moderate and reasonable) and I can't see evidence of him turning into a nationalist - he's just, rightly, denouncing knuckle-dragging, no matter who by... but at the same time, some of the stuff in that bit quoted seems quite uncharacteristic of him as a columnist, especially:

Logic is never the strong point of any strongly held tribal identity, but particularly so for these people, who have remained locked in a historical enigma wherein they are 'British', though living in Ireland

Huh?

They are British - and I'd have thought Kevin Myers of all people would support their right to consider themselves as such. No matter how loathsome I find hardline loyalism, the right to identify oneself as British is something I'd support. Northern Ireland is part of Britain, even if you don't like the idea (and I'm not totally crazy about the idea myself) that's the reality.

Paddy De Plasterer wrote: »

what about Jean McConville and the way the Ra used torture people including their own when Scappateechi used get at them - torture before shooting them dead and dumping bodies in bags along ditches ?

Oh the OP thinks what was done to Jean McConville was heroic...

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Catholics would be kidknapped by loyalist paramilitaries then brought to social clubs where they would be rompered ie beaten slowly to death for the entertainment of the crowd.

Ah no, please tell me that's not true - I feel sick...

Show Time · 23-06-2011 6:58pm

Myers making some sense at last, I never thought i would see the day.

steddyeddy · 23-06-2011 7:04pm

Zebra3 wrote: »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shankill_Butchers

Grim stuff.

There was several loylists who refer to the shankill butchers as decent guys, which is what made me realise we werent dealing with real political motive more a mental condition based on hate.

Zebra3 · 23-06-2011 7:10pm

Dudess wrote: »

Northern Ireland is part of Britain

It's not.

Britain consists of England, Scotland, and Wales.

KeithAFC · 23-06-2011 7:11pm

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Not a paragraph I would have ever expected from Myers. Due to his numerous anti-Sinn Fein/IRA, pro-british, anti-immigration articles he's considered a bit of a hero amongst some hardline loyalists. Not when they see this though

Really? First time i heard of this noob. No real loyalist would look up to this noob.

Funny article though. On The Rangers.

steddyeddy · 23-06-2011 7:13pm

Dudess wrote: »

He isn't denouncing unionism (plenty of unionism is very moderate and reasonable) and I can't see evidence of him turning into a nationalist - he's just, rightly, denouncing knuckle-dragging, no matter who by... but at the same time, some of the stuff in that bit quoted seems quite uncharacteristic of him as a columnist, especially:

Huh?
They are British - and I'd have thought Kevin Myers of all people would support their right to consider themselves as such. No matter how loathsome I find hardline loyalism, the right to identify oneself as British is something I'd support. Northern Ireland is part of Britain, even if you don't like the idea (and I'm not totally crazy about the idea myself) that's the reality.

Oh the OP thinks what was done to Jean McConville was heroic...

Ah no, please tell me that's not true - I feel sick...

All I can say is I agree with all your points! The last bit is true a lot of those tortured had no link to the ira.

HerrScheisse · 23-06-2011 7:19pm

Read his book Watching the Door about his years spent reporting in Northern Ireland. After what he witnessed up there, he can be forgiven for being bitter about both sides!

Dudess · 23-06-2011 7:19pm

Zebra3 wrote: »

It's not.

Britain consists of England, Scotland, and Wales.

You may not consider it part of Britain - and that is your right - but officially it's part of Britain. Even though you don't want it to be, it is. Not saying I'm supportive of that, but there's no point in denying it. I personally consider it to be part of Britain AND Ireland. If it's not part of Britain, then its citizens shouldn't have GB passports.

steddyeddy · 23-06-2011 7:29pm

Dudess wrote: »

You may not consider it part of Britain - and that is your right - but officially it's part of Britain. Even though you don't want it to be, it is. Not saying I'm supportive of that, but there's no point in denying it. I personally consider it to be part of Britain AND Ireland. If it's not part of Britain, then its citizens shouldn't have GB passports.

Hes not saying that out of badness but the north isnt considered part of britian its considered part of the uk.

Dudess · 23-06-2011 7:30pm

Yeah, sorry.

LondonIrish90 · 23-06-2011 7:38pm

steddyeddy wrote: »

Hes not saying that out of badness but the north isnt considered part of britian its considered part of the uk.

To be fair, Britain is considered by many people to be an acceptable way of describing the UK when it comes to history, politics, international relations etc. The majority of books you find on the topic at uni would refer to Britain as opposed to the UK, ie British forces in World War 2, or British intelligence in the Cold War.

In most circumstances (although not geographically) Britain is more than an acceptable way of refering to the UK. Plus, "UK" is harsh on the ear whereas "Britain" is a nicer word.

stovelid · 23-06-2011 7:46pm

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

That happened yes, places where alcohol is served and pool tables etc, the beatings happened in these clubs, with members of the crowd joinging in, cheering etc.
]

Correct.

Apparently, it derived from a children's TV show called The Romper Room (as in Romper suit) popular at the time when the original UDA death squads of the early 70s (and slightly later, the UVF-derived Shankill Butchers) and the killers indeed nicknamed Loyalist drinking clubs as romper rooms and the acts of mass torture as rompering. I guess the verb romp also has the macabre connotation of group fun and games as well.

theboss80 · 23-06-2011 7:47pm

Example : Great Britain and Northern Ireland in Athletics

Wonder what their Olympic soccer team will be referred to seeing as both Scotland and Wales are not willing to allow their players to play?

stovelid · 23-06-2011 7:54pm

PatsytheNazi wrote: »

Yes, that's what got me, Myarse usual only has a go at Irish nationalism, but in this article he almost portraying SF and the IRA in a positive light " There is a congenial, indeed government-backed myth, in both Scotland and in Ireland, that "one side is bad as another": that Sinn Fein-IRA are pretty much the same as the UDA/UVF. This is simply untrue. There is no republican equivalent to the Romper Rooms of the UDA "

If you read KM's book about his time as a journalist in Belfast, this is pretty analogous with his views then and he was well in with members of all the loyalist groups, the OIRA and the Provos.

Bottle_of_Smoke · 23-06-2011 8:11pm

LondonIrish90 wrote: »

To be fair, Britain is considered by many people to be an acceptable way of describing the UK when it comes to history, politics, international relations etc. The majority of books you find on the topic at uni would refer to Britain as opposed to the UK, ie British forces in World War 2, or British intelligence in the Cold War.

In most circumstances (although not geographically) Britain is more than an acceptable way of refering to the UK. Plus, "UK" is harsh on the ear whereas "Britain" is a nicer word.

Its beginning to change though I've noticed. Sammy Wilson the DUP MP recently suggested the GB olympics team should be changed to the UK olympics team

stovelid · 23-06-2011 8:13pm

Sanjuro wrote: »

I thought KM was just a professional troll who will say anything to get any reaction, just so long as somebody is looking at him.

Also, a twat.

Actually I don't agree. Troll would suggest taking up a position - often one you don;t hold - purely to inflame.

What he said there is consistent enough with what I have read in his book and his columns down the years even if he has a lot of the bile for the IRA too. Certainly in his book, his dislike of Loyalists seems far more pronounced than that of the PIRA.

I detest a lot of his views but I've found a lot of what he's written politically about the North to be consistent and evenly balanced despite the tag of Neo-Unionist although he's said some horrible things about OK politicians and citizens. He was actually quite an Republican sympathizer in his early days as a journalist in Belfast but like many personally associated with the troubles now obviously hates all the paramilitaries. I guess that's the difference when you've been cheek-by-jowl with them instead of breathlessly emoting from an armchair or a barstool.

I'm sure the Indo like having such an opinionated writer (with a lot of dodgy views) but saying he's a troll misses the point somewhat.

KeithAFC · 23-06-2011 8:24pm

stovelid wrote: »

Actually I don't agree. Troll would suggest taking up a position - often one you don;t hold - purely to inflame.

What he said there is consistent enough with what I have read in his book and his columns down the years even if he has a lot of the bile for the IRA too. Certainly in his book, his dislike of Loyalists seems far more pronounced than that of the PIRA.

I detest a lot of his views but I've found a lot of what he's written about the North to be consistent and evenly balanced despite the tag of Neo-Unionist. He was actually quite an Republican sympathizer in his early days as a journalist in Belfast but like many personally associated with the troubles now obviously hates all the paramilitaries.

I'm sure the Indo like having such an opinionated writer (with a lot of dodgy views) but saying he's a troll misses the point somewhat.

He is an Irish Republican. Of course he is going to hate Loyalists more than PIRA. Two different people who hate each other.

steddyeddy · 23-06-2011 8:27pm

KeithAFC wrote: »

He is an Irish Republican. Of course he is going to hate Loyalists more than PIRA. Two different people who hate each other.

He is not an Irish republican.

stovelid · 23-06-2011 8:27pm

KeithAFC wrote: »

He is an Irish Republican.

Is he now?

Are you saying that for adair?

/boom boom

Duckworth_Luas · 23-06-2011 8:46pm

KeithAFC wrote: »

He is an Irish Republican. Of course he is going to hate Loyalists more than PIRA. Two different people who hate each other.

LOL!

Myres may be Irish (I'm pretty sure he is). Myres may be a republican (not so sure here). The one thing he most definitely is not is an Irish Republican (110% sure on this).

LOL!

KeithAFC · 23-06-2011 8:49pm

Duckworth_Luas wrote: »

LOL!

Myres may be Irish (I'm pretty sure he is). Myres may be a republican (not so sure here). The one thing he most definitely is not is an Irish Republican (110% sure on this).

LOL!

Ok, so he is biased then. Thought so.

getzls · 23-06-2011 8:53pm

RichieC wrote: »

:pac:

seriously?

In general no. It would have been Protestants who got an invite to these romper rooms. Usually UDA men for not paying their dues or kids for anti-social stuff. Catholics i guess who where there would not have been invited but dragged there.

oranbhoy67 · 23-06-2011 9:03pm

getzls wrote: »

In general no. It would have been Protestants who got an invite to these romper rooms. Usually UDA men for not paying their dues or kids for anti-social stuff. Catholics i guess who where there would not have been invited but dragged there.

The "romper room" murders which happened from the 90s right up to the 70s occured in UDA/UVF drinking clubs were victims who were presumed to be Catholic were kidnapped to & tortured & ultimatley killed.. sometimes in front of an audience..these where men as well as women as in the case of Margaret Wright & a few others in the 90s some of whom where actually Protestants who had made the mistake of socialising in an area where they where not known.

charlemont · 23-06-2011 9:22pm

Excellent article.

stevenmu · 23-06-2011 9:26pm

Paddy De Plasterer wrote: »

He adopts some unusual stances at times- like having a go at Churchill. No matter what one thinks of Churchill his record in standing up to Hitler after fall of France, and before USA entered was heroic.

In fairness Churchill did have failings and deserved to be criticised for them, but people tend to overlook them in favour of the good things he did. Myers seems to like to bring up the overlooked sides of things, to show the negative sides of things which people think are good, or to show the positive sides of things which people generally think are bad. IMO it's important to look at all aspects of things, but this is what gets Myers labelled as a troll.

pragmatic1 · 23-06-2011 9:33pm

steddyeddy wrote: »

There was several loylists who refer to the shankill butchers as decent guys, which is what made me realise we werent dealing with real political motive more a mental condition based on hate.

Yeah I remember watching a documentary where a prominent member of the UUP said he had a sneaking admiration for loyalist paramilitaries. Shocking stuff. You'd never hear the SDLP saying something like that.

stovelid · 23-06-2011 9:52pm

Duckworth_Luas wrote: »

LOL!

Myres may be Irish (I'm pretty sure he is).!

He's English.

Duckworth_Luas · 23-06-2011 10:10pm

stovelid wrote: »

He's English.

He always refers to himself as Irish. Being born in England to Irish parents gave him a choice of nationalities. He appears to have chosen Irish. He always calls himself Irish so I will call him that, to do otherwise is disrespectful.

karma_ · 23-06-2011 10:22pm

stevenmu wrote: »

In fairness Churchill did have failings and deserved to be criticised for them, but people tend to overlook them in favour of the good things he did. Myers seems to like to bring up the overlooked sides of things, to show the negative sides of things which people think are good, or to show the positive sides of things which people generally think are bad. IMO it's important to look at all aspects of things, but this is what gets Myers labelled as a troll.

Churchill was ideal for the job of leading Britain during the war years, the British people knew exactly what he was like however, that's why he was voted out of power the second WW2 ended.

Tribal bigotry is not a response to IRA violence -- it was there before

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