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Tribal bigotry is not a response to IRA violence -- it was there before

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Comments

  • #62
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    LondonIrish90 wrote: »
    Have you not expressed your support for the IRA in the past?

    Probably just shows that Keith doesn't have the same ability to hold his tongue when emotions run high as others on here do. Same coin, two sides.
    You will never see me using sectarian words or supporting sectarian killings. I despise sectarianism.


    And as for "two sides of the same coin" The provos and loyalists being the same, or as bad as one another, well, even Myers can see that that is incorrect.


  • #63
    Monty Burnz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,455 ✭✭✭✭Monty Burnz


    Duckworth_Luas wrote: »
    Yet he always claims to be Irish! FFS his column in the Irish Times was titled An Irishman's Diary. Who are you to dispute his nationality? There are probably people posting on this very thread who were born in England to Irish parents who consider themselves nothing but Irish.
    I wonder would there be the same dispute if it was some sporting superstar who had been raised as Irish in England with Irish parents, before moving back here to live and work? :rolleyes:


  • #64
    Monty Burnz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,455 ✭✭✭✭Monty Burnz


    Wolfe Tone wrote: »
    And as for "two sides of the same coin" The provos and loyalists being the same, or as bad as one another, well, even Myers can see that that is incorrect.
    To be fair, some of us have difficulty discerning the subtleties of different levels of evil in political murders. Were the murders carried out by the Enniskillen bombers better than the murders by the Shankill Butchers?

    Hard to say.


  • #65
    Dudess
    Closed Accounts Posts: 37,214 ✭✭✭✭Dudess


    Yep, whatever political motivations, same end result.
    Duckworth_Luas wrote: »
    Who are you to dispute his nationality?
    Where did I do that? I said he is both Irish and English.


  • #66
    Duckworth_Luas
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,736 ✭✭✭Duckworth_Luas


    Duckworth_Luas wrote: »
    Who are you to dispute his nationality?
    Dudess wrote: »
    Where did I do that? I said he is both Irish and English.
    Right there actually! Myers never refers to himself as English and never has. Myres tries to point the finger at Irish society as a fellow Irishman, not as a foreigner. I don't agree with him on many issues but to say he's English is ridiculous and brings his journalistic impartiality on NI into disrepute.


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  • #67
    It wasn't me!
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,034 ✭✭✭✭It wasn't me!


    stovelid wrote: »
    Is he now?

    Are you saying that for adair?

    /boom boom

    You're a bad man. I feel dirty for laughing at that.


  • #68
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,565 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    Wolfe Tone wrote: »
    Keith supports the UVF and uses sectarian language.


    See how he equates any Irish man with a Irish republican? Thats the reasoning his heroes in the UVF used in killing random catholics.

    Its pretty clear what Keith is at this stage, I wouldn't waste your time with him.

    I actually agree one hundred per cent calling people "taigs" and fenien scum is not any person who can hold a sane arguement


  • #69
    KeithAFC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,239 ✭✭✭✭KeithAFC


    Wolfe Tone wrote: »
    You will never see me using sectarian words or supporting sectarian killings. I despise sectarianism.


    And as for "two sides of the same coin" The provos and loyalists being the same, or as bad as one another, well, even Myers can see that that is incorrect.
    If it wasn’t so stupid, it would be funny. What this thread is doing in AH when politics was banned from AH in regards to this, I do not know but that post is rather funny. Being a hypocrite and bull shinning at the same time can only be laughed at. I actually wish you would keep to the topic of a thread (and no, this isn’t backseat modding, its taking the thread completely off topic and focusing on one poster). It is a rather silly way to go about trying to make a point.

    As for the actual guy in question (title of thread), in a serious response to the argument. If this guy thinks 90-100 men and probably lots more would just go onto the street and start throwing petrol bombs and stones and so on for no good reason, then he should think again. With the many reports and what I have been told from friends in East Belfast, that is just not the case. People trying to claim it started on Monday night are deceiving at best. I would not even go to say it started on Saturday. It has been brewing for many months.

    The Ulster Volunteer Force mural which went up didn’t go up for no reason. It obviously has a support base in East Belfast and was a warning to the Irish Republicans who are throwing stones and smashing in windows which belong to Protestant homes to stop. They didn’t and we saw what happened.

    I also think the bull shinning by Sinn Fein on it has been funny. They somehow knew it was the Ulster Volunteer Force organising it, but didn’t know who was shooting from the Short Stand end. When we have been told on many occasions no Dissidents are in the Short Strand, makes that claim a bit stupid.


  • #70
    Chuck Stone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,029 ✭✭✭✭Chuck Stone


    The dogs in the street know that these guys are nothing but boold-thirsty, dim-witted degenerates.

    I don't need Myers to tell me what I already know.


  • #71
    RepublicanEagle
    Closed Accounts Posts: 399 ✭✭RepublicanEagle


    KeithAFC wrote: »
    If it wasn’t so stupid, it would be funny. What this thread is doing in AH when politics was banned from AH in regards to this, I do not know but that post is rather funny. Being a hypocrite and bull shinning at the same time can only be laughed at. I actually wish you would keep to the topic of a thread (and no, this isn’t backseat modding, its taking the thread completely off topic and focusing on one poster). It is a rather silly way to go about trying to make a point.

    As for the actual guy in question (title of thread), in a serious response to the argument. If this guy thinks 90-100 men and probably lots more would just go onto the street and start throwing petrol bombs and stones and so on for no good reason, then he should think again. With the many reports and what I have been told from friends in East Belfast, that is just not the case. People trying to claim it started on Monday night are deceiving at best. I would not even go to say it started on Saturday. It has been brewing for many months.

    The Ulster Volunteer Force mural which went up didn’t go up for no reason. It obviously has a support base in East Belfast and was a warning to the Irish Republicans who are throwing stones and smashing in windows which belong to Protestant homes to stop. They didn’t and we saw what happened.

    I also think the bull shinning by Sinn Fein on it has been funny. They somehow knew it was the Ulster Volunteer Force organising it, but didn’t know who was shooting from the Short Stand end. When we have been told on many occasions no Dissidents are in the Short Strand, makes that claim a bit stupid.

    So the PSNI were lying :rolleyes: (amadán)

    Just out of curiosity Keith, what do you think of Michael Stone?


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  • #72
    Einhard
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,920 ✭✭✭Einhard


    If anyone read Myers' book, Watching the Door, it's pretty obvious that he has no biases when it comes to sectarianism and terrorism. I think it's pretty pathetic actually, that some people equate condemnation of Loyalist atrocities with quasi-Republicanism on his part. It's not- it's simple humanity.

    Myers gets an awful lot of slack, but he puts an awful lot more intellectual effort into his writing, and is far more balanced and less partisan, than many of those who condemn him most.

    I'm gonna save this article for the next time some idiot refers to him as a West Brit.


  • #73
    Einhard
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,920 ✭✭✭Einhard


    stevenmu wrote: »
    In fairness Churchill did have failings and deserved to be criticised for them, but people tend to overlook them in favour of the good things he did. Myers seems to like to bring up the overlooked sides of things, to show the negative sides of things which people think are good, or to show the positive sides of things which people generally think are bad. IMO it's important to look at all aspects of things, but this is what gets Myers labelled as a troll.

    Excellent post. It's practically impossible these days to take a juandiced look at things, or even approach something from a balanced perspective, without being labelled a troll and the like. People seem to hold ire for commentators simply on the basis that they disagree with them, as if not holding the same opinion is some terrible outrage. It's ridiculous. I rarely agree with what Myers writes, but sometimes he challenges myths and miscpneptions in a way that gets it spot on- and even when I do disgree with him, his writings make me challenge myself as to why I believe what I do, and hold the views that I do. I think that's a good thing. Other people, it seems, just want to have their own views spoon fed back to them. it's quite sad really.


  • #74
    stovelid
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,252 ✭✭✭✭stovelid


    Duckworth_Luas wrote: »
    Yet he always claims to be Irish! FFS his column in the Irish Times was titled An Irishman's Diary. Who are you to dispute his nationality? There are probably people posting on this very thread who were born in England to Irish parents who consider themselves nothing but Irish.

    Yeah me. I was born in England to Irish parents (and moved here at 10 and am now 40) and Irish is very much my chosen nationality too, even if I''m not a flag waver or a Tiocfaidh boy.

    You need to relax. The title of the column is meaningless seeing as it was in the The Irish Times.

    My point is that I've read Myers regularly down the years (and his biography about his time in Belfast) and don't really recall him strongly identifying as Irish. Nor to be fair, as English either.
    Duckworth_Luas wrote: »
    but to say he's English is ridiculous and brings his journalistic impartiality on NI into disrepute.

    This is one of the dumbest things I've read for a while.

    There are many English people - both politicians and journalists - who are principled commentators on the North. If you are Irish, you seem to be also blissfully unaware of the corollary paradox in what you are implying: that you as an Irish person can also not hope to be impartial on the NI question.


  • #75
    Bottle_of_Smoke
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,770 ✭✭✭Bottle_of_Smoke


    KeithAFC wrote:
    He is an Irish Republican

    Lol, check out the article he wrote on tuesday:

    Kevin Myers: Cycle of futility that is Fenianism knows no end


    or 3 weeks ago:

    Kevin Myers: No limit to this nauseating Provo hypocrisy


    or 4 weeks ago:

    Kevin Myers: Apply spirit of Islandbridge to WW2 heroes


  • #76
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    PatsytheNazi wrote: »
    Interesting article by Kevin Myers of all people where he denounces unionism in no uncertain terms. Could Myarse of all people be turning into a nationalist ?

    He's denouncing loyalism. There is no mention of unionism in the article.

    Courtesy of our favourite online encyclopedia:
    A loyalist in Northern Ireland is a particular type of unionist who feels strongly in favour of the political union between Great Britain and Northern Ireland. In recent times, the term has often been used to refer to militant unionists
    Unionism in Ireland is an ideology that favours the continuation of some form of political union between the islands of Ireland and Great Britain.


  • #77
    KeithAFC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,239 ✭✭✭✭KeithAFC


    Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »
    Lol, check out the article he wrote on tuesday:

    Kevin Myers: Cycle of futility that is Fenianism knows no end


    or 3 weeks ago:

    Kevin Myers: No limit to this nauseating Provo hypocrisy


    or 4 weeks ago:

    Kevin Myers: Apply spirit of Islandbridge to WW2 heroes
    Ok, fair enough.


  • #78
    stovelid
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,252 ✭✭✭✭stovelid


    It's perfectly possible/reasonable for any individual to accommodate a world view that detests Loyalism and physical force Nationalism.

    I hate the UDA and UVF; I hate the provos. If pushed, I would without hesitation rank the former far below the latter in badness and apolitical savagery but this is largely a semantic exercise. Like saying I don't like vanilla ice-cream but I hate strawberry.

    Surely this is so obvious as to not require assertion?


  • #79
    Leftist
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,230 ✭✭✭Leftist


    What do you think about the IRA mr Patsy?


  • #80
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Leftist wrote: »
    What do you think about the IRA mr Patsy?

    [...]


  • #81
    who the fug
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,041 ✭✭✭who the fug


    Zebra3 wrote: »
    It's not.

    Britain consists of England, Scotland, and Wales.


    the only people who call themselves British are in the 6 yokes


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  • #82
    sollar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,007 ✭✭✭sollar


    Monty Burnz wrote: »
    Were the murders carried out by the Enniskillen bombers better than the murders by the Shankill Butchers?

    Hard to say.

    Prob not, i read up a little on the shankill butchers last night on wikipedia. Old Lenny Murphy (yes murphy if you don't mind) lead the group and he looked like a big Kerry farmer. He must have been trying to compensate for the fact that he was an irishman with a good splattering of basque DNA.


  • #83
    Dudess
    Closed Accounts Posts: 37,214 ✭✭✭✭Dudess


    Duckworth_Luas wrote: »
    to say he's English is ridiculous
    Hardly when he was born in England and lived there until early adulthood. I'm not denying he's Irish also, seeing as his parents were Irish and he has lived here most of his life, but that doesn't cause his earlier life to just cease to be. And I didn't say his musings on Irish society are from the perspective of a foreigner.
    and brings his journalistic impartiality on NI into disrepute.
    :confused:
    A person's nationality affects their impartiality on NI? Well then by that logic, surely being Irish would do the same? Going by what you say, a person can only have an impartial take on NI if they're not from Ireland or the UK and have no ancestral connections to either. But that's not true.


  • #84
    RepublicanEagle
    Closed Accounts Posts: 399 ✭✭RepublicanEagle


    Keith you have still not answered my question on what you think of Michael Stone, we know you are there.


  • #85
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Zebra3 wrote: »
    It's not.

    Britain consists of England, Scotland, and Wales.

    Hence why on UK passports it says "The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland". Unionism refers to the idea that Northern Ireland should be united with Britain.


  • #86
    PatsytheNazi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,260 ✭✭✭PatsytheNazi


    Einhard wrote: »
    If anyone read Myers' book, Watching the Door, it's pretty obvious that he has no biases when it comes to sectarianism and terrorism. I think it's pretty pathetic actually, that some people equate condemnation of Loyalist atrocities with quasi-Republicanism on his part. It's not- it's simple humanity.

    Myers gets an awful lot of slack, but he puts an awful lot more intellectual effort into his writing, and is far more balanced and less partisan, than many of those who condemn him most.

    I'm gonna save this article for the next time some idiot refers to him as a West Brit.
    No offence meant to you mate, but I read a review of Myarse's Watching the Door in the Phoneix and it's supposed to be laughable. Appearently according to himself, he lived a sort of James Bond existance and had sex with nearly half the women in Belfast at the time !!!! He also spoke about meeting senior IRA men on the Falls etc, when in fact they were in prison!!!


  • #87
    PatsytheNazi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,260 ✭✭✭PatsytheNazi


    philologos wrote: »
    He's denouncing loyalism. There is no mention of unionism in the article.

    Courtesy of our favourite online encyclopedia:
    Unionists have been hand in glove with loyalists down the years, Paisley, Robinson, Willie McCrea etc have been up to their necks invovled with the loyalists - as you very well know. And not just the DUP, Sir David Trimble of the UUP for example was also an open supporter of the paramilitary Ulster Vanguard back in the mid 70's ( but nowadays supports a different terrorist organisation Israel).

    As it was once said about the relationship between unionism and loyalism - " we're with you now, but if you get caught we don't know you ".

    Peter " AK47 " Robinson http://overthebridgeni.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/robinson.jpg


  • #88
    oranbhoy67
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,804 ✭✭✭oranbhoy67


    Monty Burnz wrote: »
    To be fair, some of us have difficulty discerning the subtleties of different levels of evil in political murders. Were the murders carried out by the Enniskillen bombers better than the murders by the Shankill Butchers?

    Hard to say.


    Hard to say?? :rolleyes:

    One was a bomb desinged to kill members of the now disgraced UDR regiment on parade which tragically went wrong resulting in the death of many innocent civillians.

    The other was a bunch of UVF "soilders" deciding after a few drinks to go "looking for a taig" in a black taxi picking up (usually drunk) civillians in nationalist areas torturing them in the most deprived ways ( ripping out finger nails & teeth) stringing them up like cattle & slashing at them.. sometimes in front of crowds of drinkers.. befr finally almost decapitating them with a sharp butchers knive..in some cases with the victims pleading to be killed..


  • #89
    stovelid
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,252 ✭✭✭✭stovelid


    PatsytheNazi wrote: »
    No offence meant to you mate, but I read a review of Myarse's Watching the Door in the Phoneix and it's supposed to be laughable.!

    He read the book (as did I) and you're rebutting his views based on a review of same?

    Are you not ashamed to even say this?


  • #90
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    PatsyTheNazi - Couldn't one argue the same about nationalism and republicanism?


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  • #91
    oranbhoy67
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,804 ✭✭✭oranbhoy67


    Monty Burnz wrote: »
    To be fair, some of us have difficulty discerning the subtleties of different levels of evil in political murders. Were the murders carried out by the Enniskillen bombers better than the murders by the Shankill Butchers?

    Hard to say.

    One was a bomb designed to kill members of the now disgraced quasi-paramilitary UDR regiment on parade which tragically went wrong resulting in the death of many innocent civillians.

    The other was a bunch of UVF "soilders" deciding after many drinks to go "looking for a taig" in a black taxi , picking up (usually drunk) civillians in nationalist areas torturing them in the most deprived ways ( ripping out finger nails & teeth) stringing them up like cattle & slashing at them with butcher cleavers & knives.. sometimes in front of crowds of drinkers.. before finally almost decapitating them with a sharp butchers knive..in some cases with the victims pleading to be killed..

    Still hard to say??


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