Tribal bigotry is not a response to IRA violence -- it was there before

PatsytheNazi · 23-06-2011 04:25PM #1

Interesting article by Kevin Myers of all people where he denounces unionism in no uncertain terms. Could Myarse of all people be turning into a nationalist ?

" Paradoxically, the rabble-rousing leaders of these drunken louts have usually been teetotal clergymen, such as Roaring Hanna and Ian Paisley. The compulsory Sunday closing of pubs was once a primary element of their identity -- provided that their own drinking clubs were allowed to remain open. Logic is never the strong point of any strongly held tribal identity, but particularly so for these people, who have remained locked in a historical enigma wherein they are 'British', though living in Ireland, and generally lawless though they 'loyally' support the Crown, and sober in their general political aspiration, though usually enough drunk at the time. "
http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/kevin-myers/kevin-myers-tribal-bigotry-is-not-a-response-to-ira-violence-it-was-there-before-2803409.html

stovelid · 23-06-2011 04:32PM

I thought KM was a deluded neo-Unionist West-Brit.

Or is that only when he bashes the 'Ra?

steddyeddy · 23-06-2011 04:38PM

Denoucning sectarianisim does not make a person anti unionist or pro nationalist it basically means hes not bigoted.

Biggins · 23-06-2011 04:42PM

PatsytheNazi wrote: »

...Could Myarse of all people be turning into a nationalist ?

No, it's Myers being typical Myers.

steddyeddy · 23-06-2011 04:43PM

He is quite right though the sectarianism is seperate to an anti ira stance its bigotry pure and simple. Look at the uvf's victims 90% of whom were civilians.

PatsytheNazi · 23-06-2011 04:49PM

stovelid wrote: »

I thought KM was a deluded neo-Unionist West-Brit.

Or is that only when he bashes the 'Ra?

Yes, that's what got me, Myarse usual only has a go at Irish nationalism, but in this article he almost portraying SF and the IRA in a positive light " There is a congenial, indeed government-backed myth, in both Scotland and in Ireland, that "one side is bad as another": that Sinn Fein-IRA are pretty much the same as the UDA/UVF. This is simply untrue. There is no republican equivalent to the Romper Rooms of the UDA "

Paddy De Plasterer · 23-06-2011 04:50PM

He adopts some unusual stances at times- like having a go at Churchill. No matter what one thinks of Churchill his record in standing up to Hitler after fall of France, and before USA entered was heroic.

Biggins · 23-06-2011 04:51PM

PatsytheNazi wrote: »

Yes, that's what got me, Myarse usual only has a go at Irish nationalism, but in this article he almost portraying SF and the IRA in a positive light " There is a congenial, indeed government-backed myth, in both Scotland and in Ireland, that "one side is bad as another": that Sinn Fein-IRA are pretty much the same as the UDA/UVF. This is simply untrue. There is no republican equivalent to the Romper Rooms of the UDA "

That's this months view, next month chances are he'll be on the opposite side.
I personally chose to read his words and views with extreme caution.

Bottle_of_Smoke · 23-06-2011 04:52PM

There is a congenial, indeed government-backed myth, in both Scotland and in Ireland, that "one side is bad as another": that Sinn Fein-IRA are pretty much the same as the UDA/UVF. This is simply untrue. There is no republican equivalent to the Romper Rooms of the UDA, wherein men were routinely beaten to a pulp by loyalist thugs, and from which both the term and the practice became celebrated. And then there was Lenny Murphy and his merry gang, the Shankill Butchers, who for years in the mid-1970s abducted, tortured and murdered Catholics -- usually by cutting their victims' throats

Not a paragraph I would have ever expected from Myers. Due to his numerous anti-Sinn Fein/IRA, pro-british, anti-immigration articles he's considered a bit of a hero amongst some hardline loyalists. Not when they see this though

Paddy De Plasterer · 23-06-2011 04:52PM

PatsytheNazi wrote: »

Yes, that's what got me, Myarse usual only has a go at Irish nationalism, but in this article he almost portraying SF and the IRA in a positive light " There is a congenial, indeed government-backed myth, in both Scotland and in Ireland, that "one side is bad as another": that Sinn Fein-IRA are pretty much the same as the UDA/UVF. This is simply untrue. There is no republican equivalent to the Romper Rooms of the UDA "

what about Jean McConville and the way the Ra used torture people including their own when Scappateechi used get at them - torture before shooting them dead and dumping bodies in bags along ditches ?

Sanjuro · 23-06-2011 04:53PM

stovelid wrote: »

I thought KM was a deluded neo-Unionist West-Brit.

I thought KM was just a professional troll who will say anything to get any reaction, just so long as somebody is looking at him.

Also, a twat.

mikemac · 23-06-2011 04:54PM

Article written
Debate stirred up on Irelands largest message board
Sir Anthony O'Reilly is happy
Show me the money! :cool: Large salary justified
Next week he'll take the opposite view and we'll be debating it here again

What does Romper Rooms mean?

Bottle_of_Smoke · 23-06-2011 04:55PM

PatsytheNazi wrote: »

Interesting article by Kevin Myers of all people where he denounces unionism in no uncertain terms. Could Myarse of all people be turning into a nationalist ?

Not a chance. There's actually no pro-Sinn Fein/IRA views whatsoever in this, just pointing out the romper room stuff made loyalists violence worse.

Criticising loyalists does not mean pro-nationalism.

Bottle_of_Smoke · 23-06-2011 04:57PM

mikemac wrote: »

What does Romper Rooms mean?

Catholics would be kidknapped by loyalist paramilitaries then brought to social clubs where they would be rompered ie beaten slowly to death for the entertainment of the crowd.

pragmatic1 · 23-06-2011 05:18PM

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Catholics would be kidknapped by loyalist paramilitaries then brought to social clubs where they would be rompered ie beaten slowly to death for the entertainment of the crowd.

Did that actually happen. I really dont like that section of the protestant community.

RichieC · 23-06-2011 05:20PM

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Catholics would be kidknapped by loyalist paramilitaries then brought to social clubs where they would be rompered ie beaten slowly to death for the entertainment of the crowd.

:pac:

seriously?

squod · 23-06-2011 05:23PM

Only surprised KM said this. There's a palpable bigotry in NI.

sollar · 23-06-2011 05:25PM

RichieC wrote: »

:pac:

seriously?

I don't know about the social club or even if there were spectators present. But a few were abducted and taken to romper rooms and beaten and killed.

Bottle_of_Smoke · 23-06-2011 05:26PM

RichieC wrote: »

:pac:

seriously?

That happened yes, places where alcohol is served and pool tables etc, the beatings happened in these clubs, with members of the crowd joinging in, cheering etc.

Though it also referred to the likes of this, where there wasn't neccesarily a crowd http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sunday-life/i-heard-mum-beg-for-mercy-14671410.html

sollar · 23-06-2011 05:29PM

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Though it also referred to the likes of this, where there wasn't neccesarily a crowd http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sunday-life/i-heard-mum-beg-for-mercy-14671410.html

That was a protestant woman??

Bottle_of_Smoke · 23-06-2011 05:31PM

Erm yea . . and? I was more trying to explain the style of killing referred to

Zebra3 · 23-06-2011 05:35PM

pragmatic1 wrote: »

Did that actually happen.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shankill_Butchers

Grim stuff.

Dudess · 23-06-2011 07:55PM

PatsytheNazi wrote: »

Interesting article by Kevin Myers of all people where he denounces unionism in no uncertain terms. Could Myarse of all people be turning into a nationalist ?

He isn't denouncing unionism (plenty of unionism is very moderate and reasonable) and I can't see evidence of him turning into a nationalist - he's just, rightly, denouncing knuckle-dragging, no matter who by... but at the same time, some of the stuff in that bit quoted seems quite uncharacteristic of him as a columnist, especially:

Logic is never the strong point of any strongly held tribal identity, but particularly so for these people, who have remained locked in a historical enigma wherein they are 'British', though living in Ireland

Huh?

They are British - and I'd have thought Kevin Myers of all people would support their right to consider themselves as such. No matter how loathsome I find hardline loyalism, the right to identify oneself as British is something I'd support. Northern Ireland is part of Britain, even if you don't like the idea (and I'm not totally crazy about the idea myself) that's the reality.

Paddy De Plasterer wrote: »

what about Jean McConville and the way the Ra used torture people including their own when Scappateechi used get at them - torture before shooting them dead and dumping bodies in bags along ditches ?

Oh the OP thinks what was done to Jean McConville was heroic...

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Catholics would be kidknapped by loyalist paramilitaries then brought to social clubs where they would be rompered ie beaten slowly to death for the entertainment of the crowd.

Ah no, please tell me that's not true - I feel sick...

Show Time · 23-06-2011 07:58PM

Myers making some sense at last, I never thought i would see the day.

steddyeddy · 23-06-2011 08:04PM

Zebra3 wrote: »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shankill_Butchers

Grim stuff.

There was several loylists who refer to the shankill butchers as decent guys, which is what made me realise we werent dealing with real political motive more a mental condition based on hate.

Zebra3 · 23-06-2011 08:10PM

Dudess wrote: »

Northern Ireland is part of Britain

It's not.

Britain consists of England, Scotland, and Wales.

KeithAFC · 23-06-2011 08:11PM

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Not a paragraph I would have ever expected from Myers. Due to his numerous anti-Sinn Fein/IRA, pro-british, anti-immigration articles he's considered a bit of a hero amongst some hardline loyalists. Not when they see this though

Really? First time i heard of this noob. No real loyalist would look up to this noob.

Funny article though. On The Rangers.

steddyeddy · 23-06-2011 08:13PM

Dudess wrote: »

He isn't denouncing unionism (plenty of unionism is very moderate and reasonable) and I can't see evidence of him turning into a nationalist - he's just, rightly, denouncing knuckle-dragging, no matter who by... but at the same time, some of the stuff in that bit quoted seems quite uncharacteristic of him as a columnist, especially:

Huh?
They are British - and I'd have thought Kevin Myers of all people would support their right to consider themselves as such. No matter how loathsome I find hardline loyalism, the right to identify oneself as British is something I'd support. Northern Ireland is part of Britain, even if you don't like the idea (and I'm not totally crazy about the idea myself) that's the reality.

Oh the OP thinks what was done to Jean McConville was heroic...

Ah no, please tell me that's not true - I feel sick...

All I can say is I agree with all your points! The last bit is true a lot of those tortured had no link to the ira.

HerrScheisse · 23-06-2011 08:19PM

Read his book Watching the Door about his years spent reporting in Northern Ireland. After what he witnessed up there, he can be forgiven for being bitter about both sides!

Dudess · 23-06-2011 08:19PM

Zebra3 wrote: »

It's not.

Britain consists of England, Scotland, and Wales.

You may not consider it part of Britain - and that is your right - but officially it's part of Britain. Even though you don't want it to be, it is. Not saying I'm supportive of that, but there's no point in denying it. I personally consider it to be part of Britain AND Ireland. If it's not part of Britain, then its citizens shouldn't have GB passports.

steddyeddy · 23-06-2011 08:29PM

Dudess wrote: »

You may not consider it part of Britain - and that is your right - but officially it's part of Britain. Even though you don't want it to be, it is. Not saying I'm supportive of that, but there's no point in denying it. I personally consider it to be part of Britain AND Ireland. If it's not part of Britain, then its citizens shouldn't have GB passports.

Hes not saying that out of badness but the north isnt considered part of britian its considered part of the uk.

Tribal bigotry is not a response to IRA violence -- it was there before

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