Four burglars enter, three burglars leave... Householder arrested for murder...

Riskymove · 23-06-2011 05:04PM

Irishstabber wrote: »

I look forward to the day your house is entered illegally by 4 masked men in the middle of the night.

cheers

I'll pass on to the family

AudreyHepburn · 23-06-2011 05:05PM

The Aussie wrote: »

Well..... Yes

What's with all the self-righteousness on here today?

I don't honestly think I said anything to deserve it.

Ficheall · 23-06-2011 05:06PM

I think that the issue, Audrey, is with your understanding of "reasonable".

amacachi · 23-06-2011 05:07PM

I'm looking forward to how this story works out tbh. The fact that one was stabbed to death and the other were able to remove him from the house is very odd. There's an obvious conspiracy one could put together here but for now fcuk knows what happened.

Irishstabber · 23-06-2011 05:07PM

Riskymove wrote: »

cheers

I'll pass on to the family

Ill also tell a good friend of mine who was stabbed, at 14 years of age, in the middle of the night in his bedroom that it was ok he was stabbed he was right not to retaliate because you believe it illegal,

Daroxtar · 23-06-2011 05:08PM

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

Just because I won't go out of my way to kill intruders does not give anyone the right to sneer at me.

If you post in AH then everyone has the right to sneer.:)

Riskymove · 23-06-2011 05:09PM

mconigol wrote: »

You don't have the right to use lethal force to defend yourself in your own home. If you did this thread probably wouldn't exist.

no but can use reasonable force

The burglar is the one who has initiated the confrontation. Do you not get that? You're not attacking the poor burglar, you're defending yourself.

of course I do, but not everyone here is specifically talking about being 'attacked' simply that if someone was to come in they should be able to kill them, regardless

You have no idea how the situation will unfold and therefore should be entitled to pre-empt any perceived threat.

again, so if you found someone trying to come in, you dont think you might try and scare them off or say anything, you can just kill them?

I have no problem with some one meeting force with force but not that you can just blow someone away who has a hand in your window

Riskymove · 23-06-2011 05:09PM

Irishstabber wrote: »

Ill also tell a good friend of mine who was stabbed, at 14 years of age, in the middle of the night in his bedroom that it was ok he was stabbed he was right not to retaliate because you believe it illegal,

typical nonsense, I said no such thing

Irishstabber · 23-06-2011 05:11PM

Riskymove wrote: »

no but can use reasonable force

of course I do, but not everyone here is specifically talking about being 'attacked' simply that if someone was to come in they should be able to kill them, regardless

again, so if you found someone trying to come in, you dont think you might try and scare them off or say anything, you can just kill them?

I have no problem with some one meeting force with force but not that you can just blow someone away who has a hand in your window

Cop on please, of course you have to have some common sense.

In this case clearly the four men got in and a struggle ensued.

One was stabbed and fair play to whoever stabbed him cause it made the other burglars mosie on off.

ball · 23-06-2011 05:11PM

Similar case

The Aussie · 23-06-2011 05:11PM

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

What's with all the self-righteousness on here today?

I don't honestly think I said anything to deserve it.

Might be the "im tooootally right in knowing when where and how to subdue a grown male while in defence of my abode" attitude you a carting around.

i dont think there is that much of the old "self-righteousness" about anyone but someone trying to argue a point without a leg to stand on,

You certainly dont know how hard it is to detain someone let alone "Knock them out" so please crawl away.

Riskymove · 23-06-2011 05:12PM

Irishstabber wrote: »

Cop on please, of course you have to have some common sense.

not according to some here

Irishstabber · 23-06-2011 05:13PM

Riskymove wrote: »

typical nonsense, I said no such thing

You seem to be the guy who likes playing devil's advocate no?

I tell you what, If someone entered your house with your family present, in the middle of the night. Four men with weapons. I guarantee you would initiate force if the opportunity presented itself would you not?

The only other choice is to hide and hope they don't find you, which is hard not to do in a typical British Isles home.

CardBordWindow · 23-06-2011 05:16PM

A few more cases like this might make burglars to think twice before engaging in such activities!

Riskymove · 23-06-2011 05:16PM

Irishstabber wrote: »

You seem to be the guy who likes playing devil's advocate no?

all I said was that you have no automatic right to kill someone who happens to break in

if someone actually threatens you or attacks you, or refuses to leave, of course you have the right to defend yourself or use force as neccessary

mconigol · 23-06-2011 05:17PM

Riskymove wrote: »

no but can use reasonable force

Yes, but what constitutes reasonable force? Who decides? What makes the person being attacked qualified to know how much effort it takes to disable an aggressor? How do you keep emotions out of the mix?

Riskymove wrote: »

of course I do, but not everyone here is specifically talking about being 'attacked' simply that if someone was to come in they should be able to kill them, regardless

I don't think you do get my point. The act of breaking in is in itself an attack. Anything after that should be deemed self defence or defence of property.

Riskymove wrote: »

again, so if you found someone trying to come in, you dont think you might try and scare them off or say anything, you can just kill them?

I have no problem with some one meeting force with force but not that you can just blow someone away who has a hand in your window

I honestly don't know what I would do. It would depend on any number of factors. But I would appreciate the option and I think it should at least be my right. There would obviously have to be cause too, for example shooting for putting a hand in your window is overly excessive.

You say you would have no problem with meeting force with force but if it was you that was in the position wouldn't you like to 100% know that you were the one protected under the law and not have to worry about your attacker being potentially rewarded for their attack?

AudreyHepburn · 23-06-2011 05:18PM

Ficheall wrote: »

I think that the issue, Audrey, is with your understanding of "reasonable".

I have no problem understanding 'reasonable' thanks.

The Aussie wrote: »

Might be the "im tooootally right in knowing when where and how to subdue a grown male while in defence of my abode" attitude you a carting around.

i dont think there is that much of the old "self-righteousness" about anyone but someone trying to argue a point without a leg to stand on,

You certainly dont know how hard it is to detain someone let alone "Knock them out" so please crawl away.

I am giving off no such attitude, just venturing my opinion.

KeithM89_old · 23-06-2011 05:18PM

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

Grow up and cop on.

Just because I won't go out of my way to kill intruders does not give anyone the right to sneer at me.

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

Ah here now, there is absolutly no call whatsoever for all that arrogant, condscending bullcrap.

But then maybe you all know much better than me :rolleyes:

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

Get off your pedestal.

As others have said we don't know what the situation was and I simply believe that while we should of course have the right to defend yourself,it has to be within reasonable limits.

Cut it out.

Einhard · 23-06-2011 05:18PM

I think everyone is entitled to reasonably defend their property and their person, and to use lethal force if necessary. However, I don't think that gives a person the right to go after someone who is fleeing, or to attack a kill someone who is clearly no longer a threat. Reading the article, it looks like the person arrested was in the former camp.

hondasam · 23-06-2011 05:18PM

The Aussie wrote: »

You certainly dont know how hard it is to detain someone let alone "Knock them out" so please crawl away.

come on take it easy, everyone is entitled to have their say.

Riskymove · 23-06-2011 05:20PM

mconigol wrote: »

I don't think you do get my point. The act of breaking in is in itself an attack. Anything after that should be deemed self defence or defence of property.

well we'll just have to differ on that self-defence or defending a life...fair enough

but I dont agree that property is worth a life that easily, even a scumbag burglars

Riskymove · 23-06-2011 05:21PM

mconigol wrote: »

Yes, but what constitutes reasonable force? Who decides? What makes the person being attacked qualified to know how much effort it takes to disable an aggressor? How do you keep emotions out of the mix?

the Courts I guess

Irishstabber · 23-06-2011 05:22PM

mconigol wrote: »

I don't think you do get my point. The act of breaking in is in itself an attack. Anything after that should be deemed self defence or defence of property.

Best argument I've seen in this thread.
"Creeping" a house as its known is the most dispicable thing any burglar or thief can do..
Its a total invasion of a persons privacy and defence of that should be of paramount significance in the law.

I keep several weapons in my bedroom for such cases. I live in a rented accomodation. My room is located on the ground floor at the front entrance.

If someone was to enter my house without permission who is unknown to me or my friends they would receive a hell on earth beating.

mconigol · 23-06-2011 05:24PM

Riskymove wrote: »

well we'll just have to differ on that self-defence or defending a life...fair enough

but I dont agree that property is worth a life that easily, even a scumbag burglars

Property may not be worth a life but that doesn't mean you should not have the right to defend your property and to ward off threats to it. The option to do so should at least be available.

Riskymove wrote: »

the Courts I guess

Exactly. That's a lot of good to somebody with 4 armed men in their house at three in the morning.

ball · 23-06-2011 05:25PM

Irishstabber wrote: »

Best argument I've seen in this thread.
"Creeping" a house as its known is the most dispicable thing any burglar or thief can do..
Its a total invasion of a persons privacy and defence of that should be of paramount significance in the law.

I keep several weapons in my bedroom for such cases. I live in a rented accomodation. My room is located on the ground floor at the front entrance.

If someone was to enter my house without permission who is unknown to me or my friends they would receive a hell on earth beating.

I believe you with that username

Manic Moran · 23-06-2011 05:26PM

But if it turned out he was stabbed more times than would be considered reasonable

So he's allowed to kill the guy a little bit dead, but not very dead?

I have never yet heard of a successful prosecution either in the US or Ireland which involved someone who used 'excessively lethal force.' Lethal is lethal. you attack someone with a knife, it's lethal force. If the first stab didn't end the threat, do it again. And again. Repeat until confident that the threat is ended. Only if it is obvious that there is no longer a threat (eg the guy has ceased struggling) is one no longer permitted to continue attacking, and that point is never obvious. But by that point, lethal force of any sort, even just one stab, is no longer authorised, it's not a matter of 'too many stabs', it's a case of 'was every individual stab deemed necessary at the time?'

Bear in mind that there are very few immediately incapacitating wounds. When one gets shot, it is actually the psychological effect which puts one down, not any physiological reason, unless the round actually hits something immediately vital such as the nervous system or an applicable muscle/bone. If the will is there for the target to continue going even after being shot or stabbed, he can continue to pose a threat, even though the wound may be ultimately mortal.

of course not, but perhaps letting them now you are aware of them is the first course of action, I think most burglars would leg it

Do you feel confident in betting that your current 'customers' qualify under 'most'? Bear in mind the possible cost of losing your bet.

Quoting the Irish High Court (Itself citing a British authority)

The householder knows that he must make the choice between attempting to arrest or scare off the burglar in which case he may find himself in serious danger, if the burglar turns out to be violent, and attacking the burglar first without a warning and possibly by inflicting death thus ensuring the safety of himself and his family

Says it quite well.

and the end result of very liberal legislation in favour of homeowners could be a dog-eat-dog world

Hasn't in the US. It is far less likely that a burglar will meet a homeowner in the US than in Ireland (By about a 5:1 ratio), as the burglar will make particular effort to ensure that the homeowner isn't around at the time. Encounters in the US can routinely be lethal, and the burglars tend not to think that the burglary is worth risking their life when it's far safer to ensure nobody's home in the first place. Paradoxically, this means that burglary is safer for everyone (homeowner and burglar) in the US than it is anywhere else. Burglaries happen about as often in the US as in Europe, but people take more care when going about it.

I don't think you do get my point. The act of breaking in is in itself an attack. Anything after that should be deemed self defence or defence of property.

well we'll just have to differ on that self-defence or defending a life...fair enough

Fortunately, the Irish courts have ruled on that issue as well.

Every burglary in a dwellinghouse is an act of aggression. The circumstances may make this element of aggression more or less patent but the violation of a citizen’s dwellinghouse is just that, a violation and an act of aggression no matter what the other circumstances.

A person who commits such a violation exposes himself to various legal penalties, if he is detected and convicted. But that is not the limit of his exposure. Although he is not liable to be killed by the householder simply for being a burglar, he is an aggressor and may expect to be lawfully met with retaliatory force to drive him off or to immobilise or detain him and end the threat

NTM

Samba · 23-06-2011 05:26PM

Irishstabber wrote: »

Best argument I've seen in this thread.
"Creeping" a house as its known is the most dispicable thing any burglar or thief can do..
Its a total invasion of a persons privacy and defence of that should be of paramount significance in the law.

I keep several weapons in my bedroom for such cases. I live in a rented accomodation. My room is located on the ground floor at the front entrance.

If someone was to enter my house without permission who is unknown to me or my friends they would receive a hell on earth beating.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say you'd probably stab them too?

g_moriarty · 23-06-2011 05:26PM

So tired of bleeding heart liberals defending criminals. If you don't want to risk injury or death, don't f**king break into peoples houses. It's that simple.

The Aussie · 23-06-2011 05:27PM

hondasam wrote: »

come on take it easy, everyone is entitled to have their say.

Granted and a humble apology.

but to think that is is easy to subdue or "knock someone out" is like making a cup of coffee is about nieve as you can get. and then to argue the point is just belligerent.

Einhard · 23-06-2011 05:27PM

CardBordWindow wrote: »

A few more cases like this might make burglars to think twice before engaging in such activities!

Or they might respond by carrying lethal weapons of their own?

Irishstabber wrote: »

Best argument I've seen in this thread.
"Creeping" a house as its known is the most dispicable thing any burglar or thief can do..

Unless "Creeping" is a euphemism for murder or rape or genocide or taking a sh!t in someone's kettle, then no, it really isn't the most despicable thing a burglar can do...

Its a total invasion of a persons privacy and defence of that should be of paramount significance in the law.

Of course there should be defence of that right under the law. There also has to be a defence of the right to life. And there is. The trick is in getting the balance right between the two. If it were up to you, there'd be no balance whatsoever.

I keep several weapons in my bedroom for such cases. I live in a rented accomodation. My room is located on the ground floor at the front entrance.

So you're saying your username is not ironic then....
:pac:

If someone was to enter my house without permission who is unknown to me or my friends they would receive a hell on earth beating.

How exactly would you establish if the person was known to your friends? Would you do that before or after the beating? Hold the person down whilst calling your friends and describing him?

Four burglars enter, three burglars leave... Householder arrested for murder...

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