Legality of BioDiesel & Veg Oil as fuel; individual usage in Ireland, from Revenue

imakebiodiesel · 15-06-2011 06:18PM

I will be making a 150 lire batch of biodiesel on Saturday morning 18th may. If anyone wants to come along and see how its done your are very welcome.

Marlow · 15-06-2011 06:57PM

imakebiodiesel wrote: »

I will be making a 150 lire batch of biodiesel on Saturday morning 18th may. If anyone wants to come along and see how its done your are very welcome.

You mean, June 18th ? Looks like I'll finally have time, this time around

/M

imakebiodiesel · 15-06-2011 09:33PM

Sorry my mistake 18th June , this Saturday.

alo1587 · 18-06-2011 11:35PM

Damn,I just saw this now.Pity I missed it.When will you be doing the next demonstration imakebiodiesel? I fitted my 02 nissan primera 'test rig' with a wvo kit today,the kit is working fine,just havent got a chance to collect the veg oil yet,I would be very interested in seeing how its done.Thanks

kkelly77 · 19-06-2011 12:59AM

alo1587 wrote: »

Damn,I just saw this now.Pity I missed it.When will you be doing the next demonstration imakebiodiesel? I fitted my 02 nissan primera 'test rig' with a wvo kit today,the kit is working fine,just havent got a chance to collect the veg oil yet,I would be very interested in seeing how its done.Thanks

+1

When's the next date imakebiodisel?

imakebiodiesel · 19-06-2011 08:21PM

Ill be doimg another batch in about 2 weeks, watch this space.

Berty · 19-06-2011 08:30PM

imakebiodiesel wrote: »

Ill be doimg another batch in about 2 weeks, watch this space.

Surely you require a Waste Collection Permit to collect the oil from the restaurants?

imakebiodiesel · 20-06-2011 09:28AM

The waste control regulations specifically exempt any vehicle of less than half a ton per axle from the regulations.
In other words if you collect and transport waste veg oil in a car or car and trailer you are not breaking the law. If you use a truck you need a permit.

Darsad · 20-06-2011 11:08AM

imakebiodiesel wrote: »

The latest generation of diesel engines are very demanding of fuel standards and will not run on sub standard fuel whether it is diesel or biodiesel. I perform lab tests for biodiesel makers all over Ireland and the UK and I regularly see some pretty awful fuel. But properly made biodiesel is perfectly good for modern engines.
Central heating burners must be reset to run on diesel / gasoil. All rubber seals and o rings must be replaced with viton ones. Riello supply a very good biodiesel kit for their burners.

Take this advice at your peril anybody stupid enough to put home grown bio into a modern High pressure common rail diesel engine will face a huge repair bill far out weighing any derived or perceived benefit. Also just to clarify the over fuelling of a DPF equipped vehicle is not designed to clean out the DPF with unburt fuel. The over fuelling only happens when required to raise the temp in the DPF to between 550 C and 700 C and incinerate any soot therein not to wash it !

imakebiodiesel · 20-06-2011 08:00PM

I dont disagree with any thing you say except the assumption that " home grown" is the same as "low quality". I have several friends who have been driving late model common rail engined cars on B100 for several years with no problems whatsover. The point is that they all make very high quality fuel, better in fact than many commercial producers.
So yes, anyone who puts substandard fuel into a late model diesel is stupid and will face a big repair bill.
My description of how a dpf works was only concerned with what goes on inside the cylinder head itself and why biodiesel is not suitable.
I discussed the common rail issue recently with a Volkswagen dealership mechanic who confided to me that he will not fill up his new Golf at a filling station that has been built more than 15 years ago. Most older filling stations cant keep diesel dry enough to be safe with common rail engines.

Darsad · 20-06-2011 09:13PM

The EN 590 standard Diesel fuel sold at the pump currently has a 7 % Bio concentrate rising to 10% in 2013. I know many manufacturers are experiencing difficulties at 7% and worried about 10%. I would be very surprised if your friends are running 1600 - 1800 bar high pressure common rail diesel engines on B100 with no damaging side effects.

imakebiodiesel · 21-06-2011 08:40AM

The rules of this forum do not allow me to direct you to another offsite forum but it is not hard to find if you do a search under biodiesel and Ireland. There are people in Ireland,Uk and USA running common rail and PD engines on B100 without problems. The important issue is not the type of fuel, but the quality and level of contamination.
There is no doubt that manufacturers are experiencing reliability issues with the latest cars and vans, and they are right when they blame fuel quality. However VAG have not had these problems in Germany where 10% biodiesel is already in place. There, the maximum permitted level of water and sediment is 200ppm instead of 500ppm in Ireland and UK. Another important factor is that fuel standards are strictly regulated and enforced by an independent agency. In Ireland regulation barely exists, and enforcement... dont make me laugh.
Don't put any fuel into a late model car unless you are sure it it is top quality.

Darsad · 21-06-2011 11:19AM

I think comparing the quality of Diesel in Germany and here is like comparing apples and oranges Germany & Sweden have the highest standard fuel in the EU at the pumps with < 10ppm of sulphur content .
Slightly off topic but I also doubt very much that the washing of agri diesel takes place in Germany. How and where do you think washed diesel gets sold Ive not seen too many guys offering it at the side of the road. This is a massive problem for high pressure systems plus by the time the damage is done the owner has filled up else where and when tested the fuel sample shows up as ok.

Marlow · 21-06-2011 11:28AM

Darsad wrote: »

I think comparing the quality of Diesel in Germany and here is like comparing apples and oranges Germany & Sweden have the highest standard fuel in the EU at the pumps with < 10ppm of sulphur content .

It is not. Because the standard that they have over there is what we're supposed to be running our common rail diesels on. The reason for the problems we're seeing is because of the bad quality, that we're getting.

It has nothing to do with the fuel type though. Only with the quality. So saying BioDiesel is no good for a common rail engine is plain wrong.

There's no excuse for the bad standards and testing, that is the norm over here.

/M

Darsad · 21-06-2011 12:15PM

Marlow wrote: »

It has nothing to do with the fuel type though. Only with the quality. So saying BioDiesel is no good for a common rail engine is plain wrong.

There's no excuse for the bad standards and testing, that is the norm over here.

/M

Ok so show me a non modified mass production common rail diesel engine
that the manufacturer states can be run on Boidiesel

Marlow · 21-06-2011 02:53PM

Darsad wrote: »

Ok so show me a non modified mass production common rail diesel engine
that the manufacturer states can be run on Boidiesel

Not sure, how good your german is, but here's an article on BioDiesel from Volkswagens official german website: http://www.volkswagen.de/de/Volkswagen/nachhaltigkeit/service/glossar_nachhaltigkeit/biodiesel.html

Essentially it states, that the reason why commonrail engines can't be cleared for BioDiesel in general, is because there is no clear regulation on the quality of BioDiesel. It does not say, that you can't run your commonrail engine on BioDiesel whatsoever.

It also states, that the production of rapeseed available for BioDiesel currently only would suffice to deliver 10% of market demand for Diesel or Diesel equivalents.

This makes my point exactly. The problem is not the BioDiesel, it is the quality standards of the fuel.

/M

Darsad · 21-06-2011 03:45PM

You would want to use a better translator because that article clearly states for the reasons outlined Biodiesel is not authorised to be used in Volkswagen vehicles !

Marlow · 21-06-2011 03:49PM

Darsad wrote: »

You would want to use a better translator because that article clearly states for the reasons outlined Biodiesel is not authorised to be used in Volkswagen vehicles !

German is one of my natives, so I do not need a translator. And what the article states is, that there is no general clearance for the use of BioDiesel due to the lack of clearly defined quality standards in manufacturing BioDiesel. My translation was the meaning of the article, not literal.

At this point your posts are clearly only trolling, but to no benefit to anybody.

/M

Darsad · 21-06-2011 03:59PM

Well I usually take the literal meaning of a technical document !

While your at it I think you need to look up the definition of Trolling too !

Marlow · 21-06-2011 04:05PM

Darsad wrote: »

Well I usually take the literal meaning of a technical document !

While your at it I think you need to look up the definition of Trolling too !

As I wrote, your posts are clearly to no benefit and the article states nowhere, that commonrail engines (or diesel engines in general for that sake) can't be run on biodiesel. Clearly, you can't even admit, that you're wrong, even though you've been pointed at one of the biggest manufacturers websites.

Matter of fact, the article states, that BioDiesel is a viable replacement for regular Diesel fuel, but with current production only could supply 10% of demand.

Literal (as in word for word) translation will not tell you the meaning of the article. Thus a translation, that reflects the meaning is more useful.

/M

dahamsta · 21-06-2011 05:27PM

Matt Simis, did the Revenue justify their opinion with any references to legislation? It looks to me like their classification of vegetable oil as mineral oil is more of an interpretation of legislation than actual law. Could they just be chancing their arm because of typical crappy Irish legislation that never, ever thinks ahead?

adam

imakebiodiesel · 24-06-2011 09:49AM

The term Mineral Oil Tax predates the use of commercial biodiesel but the important classifications within the mineral oil tax schedules are Propellant ( road fuel) Agricultural, Heating oil and others. Its these classifications that set the level of tax.
Up until recently biodiesel used as a propellant was taxed at the same level as petrodiesel. But with the introduction of the Carbon tax which is collected along with the mineral oil tax there are now higher rates of tax on petrodiesel in all three classifications.
I believe the revenue were in favour of a system similar to the uk where small producers of biodiesel would be allowed 2500 litres of biodiesel before attracting any tax liability as it cant possibly be worth the time and trouble to collect such small amounts of tax. However our esteemed government wanted every cent collected to help out their cronies in the banking system.

Eleganza · 24-06-2011 10:12AM

German sticker on dino-diesel pump where I filled up today mentioned 7% bio-diesel content.
It would be interesting to know if Irish diesel has similiar content and if the fule companies adjust the amount of carbon tax and levy they pay accordingly.

dahamsta · 24-06-2011 10:56AM

As far as I'm aware, they currently use 5% and they're working towards 10-15%. It needs to be handled carefully because of the issues with engines mentioned earlier.

imakebiodiesel · 25-06-2011 09:20AM

Ireland is currently using 4.6% biodiesel and the carbon levy does not apply to that portion of the fuel. In Germany 7% is the norm athough some oil companies are already offering 10% which will be the standard by next year.

Uk and Irish oil companies remain totally opposed to the use of biodiesel, despite the green wash on their websites, because having to purchase it reduces their profit margin. They buy the cheapest rubbish they can find from the far east while companies like <snip> in <snip> who make top class biodiesel struggle to survive.
They are happy to blame problems on biodiesel because it masks their own negligence and greed.

Darsad · 25-06-2011 11:35AM

Ireland is already using 7 % bio , as per
EN 590:2009—FAME content of 7% as regulated by Directive 2009/30/EC. This directive also adopts mandatory biofuel requirements for refiners and introduces a 10 ppm S limit in nonroad fuels effective 2011.

Had a sample tested last week and came back with a bio figure of 6.9 %

imakebiodiesel · 25-06-2011 02:06PM

I stand corrected, I hadnt realized that Ireland has increased the percentage to 7% already.

25-06-2011 03:01PM

Matt Simis wrote: »

The UK approach supports an open and innovate home industry which may grow into a commercial enterprise and does not "stamp out" the Home enthusiast. The Irish approach is draconian, contradictory and illogical.

This might be something to raise when your Political representative comes canvassing.

shocking considering how big the UK enthusiast area is:
http://www.vegetableoildiesel.co.uk/forum/index.php

And whats even worse is that we have great potential:

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/sunflowers-power-irish-bright-sparks-1429949.html

A CAR powered on vegetable oil has earned a team of Irish bright sparks second place in a worldwide technology competition in Paris.

'Team AcidRain' from NUI Maynooth , drove their 'Voila-Mobile' to the French capital on sunflower oil for the Microsoft Imagine Cup, which attracted entries from 200,000 of the brightest young minds from 100 countries.

They beat off tough competition from China , Korea, Poland and Ukraine to come second to a team of students from Singapore -- who developed a system for monitoring air pollution.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2008/0709/1215537641167.html

won the $10,000 prize in the Embedded Development category for their kit to convert any diesel car to run on any type of vegetable oil.

Matt Simis · 25-06-2011 03:17PM

dahamsta wrote: »

Matt Simis, did the Revenue justify their opinion with any references to legislation? It looks to me like their classification of vegetable oil as mineral oil is more of an interpretation of legislation than actual law. Could they just be chancing their arm because of typical crappy Irish legislation that never, ever thinks ahead?

adam

When I pushed for this type of detail I was abruptly told to refer to their earlier answer. To them Biodiesel is a taxed (levied?) fuel, the name of the tax (Mineral Oil Duty) is irrelevant, as they are simply applying a pre-existing tax to a new product, something they likely are fully entitled to do.

While its true that the Carbon tax portion treats Biofuels better than petro-fuels, as I highlighted (with figures in the first pages of thread) in the grand scheme of things that portion of tax saving is utterly insignificant. The reality remains, Biofuels are "virtually" taxed as petro-fuel in Ireland.

cianof · 25-06-2011 06:00PM

imakebiodiesel, is there much by product left over after making biodiesel?
How do you dispose any by products?

Legality of BioDiesel & Veg Oil as fuel; individual usage in Ireland, from Revenue

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