Waterford GAA Discussion Thread 2009-2011

flahavaj · 15-06-2011 01:48PM

Deise Tom wrote: »

If The BRick is put back into full back and it works, will it mean that we will have people putting Davy on an even higher pedistal and saying how great he is, how brave he is, and how clever he was to make such a move instead of asking why he did not do it since 2008 when he came in first and it quickly appeared that Ken McGrath was not the answer there either at full back, even though early on playing against poor enough teams that it might have been a good call to switch him back. A good or even a very good centre back does not mean that mean you will be good at Full Back. Ken has been tried there, Dec Pender is a decent half back player but never set the world alight in the full back line and when justin was in charge he moved Fergal back there and while he was ok, he was still not the answers to our problems.

Can someone please clone a young Sean Cullinane and it might solve the problem.

Is it possible for you to discuss anything to do with Waterford hurling without you making it about Davy Fitz, Tom?

We get it, you don't rate the man (neither do I in certain aspects of his job), but you don't need to keep beating that particular drum every time anything to so with the team is discussed do you?

carter10 · 15-06-2011 03:00PM

flahavaj wrote: »

Is it possible for you to discuss anything to do with Waterford hurling without you making it about Davy Fitz, Tom?

We get it, you don't rate the man (neither do I in certain aspects of his job), but you don't need to keep beating that particular drum every time anything to so with the team is discussed do you?

Agreed, its become tiresome at this stage.

On the Brick thing I'd be in favour of him moving back to full back if it meant the difference between conceding 1 instead of 3 goals per game. Moran always plays his best hurling at CB and id have no worries about him there.

Mountainlad · 15-06-2011 03:21PM

carter10 wrote: »

Agreed, its become tiresome at this stage.

On the Brick thing I'd be in favour of him moving back to full back if it meant the difference between conceding 1 instead of 3 goals per game. Moran always plays his best hurling at CB and id have no worries about him there.

I think overall it would be detrimental to the team.

premierstone · 15-06-2011 03:36PM

carter10 wrote: »

On the Brick thing I'd be in favour of him moving back to full back if it meant the difference between conceding 1 instead of 3 goals per game. Moran always plays his best hurling at CB and id have no worries about him there.

I dont think its as simplistic as that tbh, and while Moran might be a reasonably competent CB Brick is arguably and IMO is the best CB in the country, Waterford already have a half forward line that cant win primary posession so to start weakening your halfback line aswell, will mean they will struggle to win any puckouts from either end.

Also it seems to be taken for granted that Brick will be as acomplished a FB, its a very specialist position and I would'nt be basing my opinion on the few minutes against Limerick as I said in an ealier post if you are to win an AI teh FB will come up against at least two of Shefflin, Corbett and Canning, then guys are capable of scoring 3 goals off anyone, even Brick im afraid.

egpower · 15-06-2011 03:52PM

premierstone wrote: »

While I may be guilty of a knee-jerk reaction to how bad Hutchinson is as an inter county FB, I think you are definitely guilty of the same in blowing up Downes on the back of one performance against a questionable FB who was exposed by hes managers lack of tactical nous.

I suppose I know Downes from his club exploits and I know how highly he is rated. I was fearful at half time precisely because he had got no ball and I knew they would fix that at half time.

Also, he smashed a similar game-turning goal against Clare in Ennis - so that's 2 exhibitions of what he can do. One more and I am calling him a freak show

!

carter10 · 15-06-2011 04:09PM

premierstone wrote: »

I dont think its as simplistic as that tbh, and while Moran might be a reasonably competent CB Brick is arguably and IMO is the best CB in the country, Waterford already have a half forward line that cant win primary posession so to start weakening your halfback line aswell, will mean they will struggle to win any puckouts from either end.

Also it seems to be taken for granted that Brick will be as acomplished a FB, its a very specialist position and I would'nt be basing my opinion on the few minutes against Limerick as I said in an ealier post if you are to win an AI teh FB will come up against at least two of Shefflin, Corbett and Canning, then guys are capable of scoring 3 goals off anyone, even Brick im afraid.

Obviously the ideal situation would be to have both in the HB line but we have a glaring hole at FB that has to be filled, ,other teams are rightly going for our weak spot and I think its worth at least trying brick there as I think he's our best chance of solving the problem. I could be wrong and i often am but thats my 2cents on the thing.

johnfarmer · 15-06-2011 04:41PM

I think that if we had another corner back (a fit Eoin Murphy would do) then the defense problem would be resolved. It would allow us to move Fives out to his best position. We'd just make a few adjustments and have a ferocious back-line:
2. Eoin Murphy 3. Brick Walsh 4. Noel Connors
5. Tony Browne 6. Kevin Moran 7. Darrah Fives

This would also be gearing us up for the future as I can see a new back-line looking like this in 2012/2013
2. Jamie Barron 3. Brick Walsh 4. Noel Connors
5. Philip Mahony 6. Kevin Moran 7. Darrah Fives

If that doesn't look mighty to ye then ye are all blind men.

Deise Tom · 15-06-2011 05:50PM

Can any of the lads that do reports on the various blogs, post a link to a report on the Waterford and Limerick game that ended in a draw in the 2009 championship.

Thanks.

Fireball07 · 15-06-2011 06:45PM

egpower wrote: »

I suppose I know Downes from his club exploits and I know how highly he is rated. I was fearful at half time precisely because he had got no ball and I knew they would fix that at half time.

Also, he smashed a similar game-turning goal against Clare in Ennis - so that's 2 exhibitions of what he can do. One more and I am calling him a freak show !

You could be right, I think he's a genius. And I've never seen him play club, and never heard him as highly rated as Hannon but he's top class. It wasn't just the goal against Clare...every time he got the ball he tortured the defence.

Pity he didn't get more ball against Waterford but the fact that Brick actually got the ball off him once or twice made me disappointed

But just because Downes scored a goal off him doesn't mean Hutchison is a bad player. He did slip, didn't he? Maybe a bit unlucky...and he might be a good man marker just for the fact that Downes is quite fast. Canning and Shefflin aren't that quick...more talented players, possibly but maybe Hutchison would be better suited to marking them?? I've never seen him play apart from the weekend but it wouldn't be unheard of.

John Mullane scored 2-2 off Tom Condon but I still think he's one of our best defenders, certainly wouldn't drop him.

detective · 15-06-2011 07:06PM

Especially in the conditions on Sunday I think yer being too critical of Hutchinson lads. Amazing to think people were only talking up Hannon and not downes going into game. Can't wait to see them play together. Just think it's great to see great new talent coming through from Waterford and Limerick. Maybe Hutchinson can redeem himself against Limerick in the semi finals of the AI lmao I wish!!!!

Mountainlad · 15-06-2011 07:49PM

See the reason why people are being critical of Hutchison is he's been around for ages, like he's about 26 or 27 I think so the fact that he even got into this year was a bit of a suprise!

hardybuck · 16-06-2011 12:06AM

Sure isn't Lawlor the same age, and been on the panel for about 8 years!? If he isn't going to do it now when is he?

premierstone · 16-06-2011 10:26AM

carter10 wrote: »

Obviously the ideal situation would be to have both in the HB line but we have a glaring hole at FB that has to be filled, ,other teams are rightly going for our weak spot and I think its worth at least trying brick there as I think he's our best chance of solving the problem. I could be wrong and i often am but thats my 2cents on the thing.

Yes you are right it is worth trying Brick FB, but alas thats what the league was for, a munster final is no time for such radical experiments, the dogs in the street new it was the weak point of the team, Donal O'Grady certainly knew it, but yet Davy sat on he's hands for the entire league and for over 50 mins of the game on Sunday, now he is facing into a munster final with no idea who he is going to play FB, and whoever he picks will be either facing Lar Corbett of Darach Honan, scary stuff lads!

Mountainlad · 16-06-2011 01:45PM

hardybuck wrote: »

Sure isn't Lawlor the same age, and been on the panel for about 8 years!? If he isn't going to do it now when is he?

I was just giving the reason people are being critical. No need to jump down my throat there. I don't know an awful lot about Hutchisons injury problems. Liam Lawlor has done his cruciate twice. He'd probably have been on the team as a wing back if he hadn't. Plus, I thought he did well last year. He seems to be getting the blame here for one match, which I thought there were quite a lot of problems, a lot of which rested on Davy's shoulders in my view.

hardybuck · 16-06-2011 02:30PM

Didn't mean to come across as hostile, and I'm in no way a huge Wayne Hutchinson fan.

In regard to Lawlor though, few counties would have a lad in a panel that long and still be trying to find places he can play. He isn't getting any younger, and he has been suffering serious injuries since his late teens/early 20's. Nothing against the lad, he put in a lot of effort with Waterford teams over the years, particularly when flying back from Scotland to play with the footballers.

I'm honestly baffled with the lack of full backs in Waterford. 15 years and or more without anyone of good quality. Other counties seem to have a constant supply - is it genetics or is it coaching?

noiniho · 16-06-2011 03:11PM

hardybuck wrote: »

I'm honestly baffled with the lack of full backs in Waterford. 15 years and or more without anyone of good quality. Other counties seem to have a constant supply - is it genetics or is it coaching?

Limerick withdrew their two corner forwards and first hutchinson then fives had the whole full back line to cover, god with that space no full back would survive, Donal O Grady tried the tactic... it worked (these clever plans normally only work once), the waterford line responded by switching the full backand nothing else, the problem of all that space to cover was still there as both cornerbacks had followed their men out the field. End result? Limerick get another goal from the same ploy..... disaster.

One corner back to follow hi man maybe, but the other cornerback should have stayed back and played like a sweeper, as limericks tactic was to play ball into Kevin Downes, this 'spare' corner back would have picked up alot of this ball and then Limerick would have to have pushed a corner forward back into the forward line. potentially saving the concession of those two goals.

you may say the 'free' corner forward out in the middle of the field could have caused havoc, but it wouldnt have resulted in the loss of six points in my opinion. if he is causing real havoc then bring out one of your own corner forwards to match him.

like bringing out your two corner backs was just crazy, it was playing to the beat of Limericks tune (for most of the second half) I couldnt believe what i was watching.

think of the first goal, Wayne hutchinson had to cover all the way over to our left corner, with acres of space in front of him, against a pacier player, what chance did he have?

I think the waterford line got shown up big time.

premierstone · 16-06-2011 03:14PM

hardybuck wrote: »

I'm honestly baffled with the lack of full backs in Waterford. 15 years and or more without anyone of good quality. Other counties seem to have a constant supply - is it genetics or is it coaching?

Dont know about that - Galway haven't had one since Noel Lane, Noel Hickey looks well past it to me and KK are really strugling to replace him, Eoin Cadogan is limited in my opinion, he's a spoiler at best but will get exposed, if Paul Curran was injured in the morning Tipp would be in serious trouble, its a problem for every team its such a specialised position and the profile of top intercounty FF's has changed so much you need to be able to mark Big Target men ala Joe Canning, Kevin Downes etc. but also be able to handle the speed and movement of a Lar Corbett or the guile of a Henry Shefflin.

With regards the training thing, I guess if you think about it any player that would tick all the boxes I have mentioned there would not end up playing FB because they would have always been too good at club level and underage to be 'sacrificed' at FB. The majority would end up in the half back line.

premierstone · 16-06-2011 03:18PM

noiniho wrote: »

Limerick withdrew their two corner forwards and first hutchinson then fives had the whole full back line to cover, god with that space no full back would survive, Donal O Grady tried the tactic... it worked (these clever plans normally only work once), the waterford line responded by switching the full backand nothing else, the problem of all that space to cover was still there as both cornerbacks had followed their men out the field. End result? Limerick get another goal from the same ploy..... disaster.

One corner back to follow hi man maybe, but the other cornerback should have stayed back and played like a sweeper, as limericks tactic was to play ball into Kevin Downes, this 'spare' corner back would have picked up alot of this ball and then Limerick would have to have pushed a corner forward back into the forward line. potentially saving the concession of those two goals.

you may say the 'free' corner forward out in the middle of the field could have caused havoc, but it wouldnt have resulted in the loss of six points in my opinion. if he is causing real havoc then bring out one of your own corner forwards to match him.

like bringing out your two corner backs was just crazy, it was playing to the beat of Limericks tune (for most of the second half) I couldnt believe what i was watching.

think of the first goal, Wayne hutchinson had to cover all the way over to our left corner, with acres of space in front of him, against a pacier player, what chance did he have?

I think the waterford line got shown up big time.

You're absolutely spot on, and tbf its not the first time the line or more specifically Davy have been exposed tactically, its a bit of a re-acurring theme.

deisebhoy17 · 16-06-2011 03:24PM

Mountainlad wrote: »

I was just giving the reason people are being critical. No need to jump down my throat there. I don't know an awful lot about Hutchisons injury problems. Liam Lawlor has done his cruciate twice. He'd probably have been on the team as a wing back if he hadn't. Plus, I thought he did well last year. He seems to be getting the blame here for one match, which I thought there were quite a lot of problems, a lot of which rested on Davy's shoulders in my view.

Look I appreciate your a big Lawlor fan and judging by your name your possibly from the same neck of the woods/club as him so I can understand you backing him. But to say that but for injuries hed be a regular at wing back for Waterford is wide of the mark. Hes had loads of chances (im not saying he wont get anymore) and tbh anytime Ive seen him he struggled for us. Last year people say he did well against Clare and the 2 games against Cork but I think he was limited. I cant recall him ever actually fielding a high ball or actually picking the ball up and making huge clearances down the field like you'd expect a top quality fullback to do. The tactic against Aisaki for the 2 games was just to pull, tear and drag at him, get in his face, however he was on the brink of a red card and eventually had to be taken off. which obviously is what he was told to do but underlines the lack of confidence that Davy & his selectors had in him to go toe to toe with his direct marker. Tactic failed against Lar Corbett in the all-Ireland semi and while no one is blaming Lawlor for that defeat he was amongst many who was out of his depth that day. I think he was taken off again that day. Your regular full back should not be one of the first fellahs to be hauled off in every game. Admittedly a lot to do with the tactics used but the big players always step up no matter what.

Deise Hurler · 16-06-2011 04:51PM

Have played full back many a times. The position is not about fancy hurling, more about good communicating and operating as a line. By that I mean the corner backs and the full back really need to work together. If the full back goes out to tackle an incoming player the corner backs must know instinctively what to do, which should be dropping into the full back position. The full back needs to be the leader of the line but to do this he must be confident in his position. Unfortunately we have chopped and changed our full back all year and neither lawlor or hutchinson have been given the chance to settle into the position. Even before the limerick match, we were all unsure as to which of the two would be selected. At the start of the year a full back should have been selected and the league should have been used to allow that player make the position his own.

If a full back makes a mistake their should be no need to haul them off. On sunday Hutchinson wasn't doing too bad up until the goal. He was exposed for one goal and straight away he was switched. You could see straight away that his head dropped once the switch was made and it was only a matter of time before he was going to be taken off.

In my opinion, Shane Fives is the best full back we have in Waterford. I am surprised he is not already being recognised as one of our star players as a few years ago if asked to name a young player who was going to make it with our seniors, his name would have been the first I would have said. Only a year and a half ago he was named as full back on the fitzgibbon cup team of the year, but unfortunately he has been given limited game time with Waterford and when selected he is usually played at wing back.

Anyway, whoever is selected at 3 from now on needs to be given time to make the position their own or we will still be talking in ten years time about how Waterford could have won an All Ireland if Sean Cullinane was still around.

johnfarmer · 16-06-2011 05:11PM

I'm from Dungarvan myself and we played Ballygunner in our first championship match we got a right trimmin but after our match the Ballygunner intermediates played Clonea and I stayed to watch the majority of it. Clonea won comfortably in the end but they had a very good full back to thank for that. I'm not sure who the Clonea full back is but he was very impressive. I know he's only playing intermediate hurling and that inter-county is a massive step up but he'd surely be worth giving a trial unless he already has been given one. Does anybody know who he is?

Ian Flynn from De La Salle is another option but he'd be no better nor worse than Lawlor or Hutchison.

PTH2009 · 16-06-2011 05:58PM

IMO i think this will be Davys Last year as manager of Waterford for a number of reasons

1. I think the travelling might get too him

2. He could feel like he done all he can with this team and cant give anymore.

3. If Clare have a bad year under Ger O Loughline (which is most likely going to happen) and he resigns than Davy would be a cert for the Clare job.

4. Also other teams might be after Davy as boss ie Limerick,Galway or Offaly.

You have to hand it to Davy came mid season in 2008 got to the All Ireland final the same year. In 2009 got to a Munster final and to an All Ireland Semi. In 2010 Won Munster and this year had a very good league campaign and another Munster final apperance. He brought in a lot of new players, he brighted up Waterford Hurling in a way.

Anyway who is going to take the reigns after Davy??. Michael Ryan, Nicky English, John Allen, Jimmy Barry Murphy, Jim Greene, Fergal Hartley

Deise Tom · 16-06-2011 06:23PM

PTH2009 wrote: »

IMO i think this will be Davys Last year as manager of Waterford for a number of reasons

1. I think the travelling might get too him

2. He could feel like he done all he can with this team and cant give anymore.

3. If Clare have a bad year under Ger O Loughline (which is most likely going to happen) and he resigns than Davy would be a cert for the Clare job.

4. Also other teams might be after Davy as boss ie Limerick,Galway or Offaly.

You have to hand it to Davy came mid season in 2008 got to the All Ireland final the same year. In 2009 got to a Munster final and to an All Ireland Semi. In 2010 Won Munster and this year had a very good league campaign and another Munster final apperance. He brought in a lot of new players, he brighted up Waterford Hurling in a way.

Anyway who is going to take the reigns after Davy??. Michael Ryan, Nicky English, John Allen, Jimmy Barry Murphy, Jim Greene, Fergal Hartley

Of the ones you name from inside the county, they will either not be wanted or seen maybe not to have enough experience as a manager/coach. What about Nicky Cashin.

Browney7 · 16-06-2011 06:25PM

premierstone wrote: »

Dont know about that - Galway haven't had one since Noel Lane, Noel Hickey looks well past it to me and KK are really strugling to replace him, Eoin Cadogan is limited in my opinion, he's a spoiler at best but will get exposed, if Paul Curran was injured in the morning Tipp would be in serious trouble, its a problem for every team its such a specialised position and the profile of top intercounty FF's has changed so much you need to be able to mark Big Target men ala Joe Canning, Kevin Downes etc. but also be able to handle the speed and movement of a Lar Corbett or the guile of a Henry Shefflin.

With regards the training thing, I guess if you think about it any player that would tick all the boxes I have mentioned there would not end up playing FB because they would have always been too good at club level and underage to be 'sacrificed' at FB. The majority would end up in the half back line.

Agree with this totally. Full back is a difficult position to master and it takes years to get a good grasp of it. Intelligence and an ability to be able to read a game are vital.

On most teams the centre back will be the best player on the team so more often than not a player of this type will have the above traits. So when you say players are seldom sacrificed for FB it's spot on.

Limerick have stuck with Lucey for a long time (Not a great example I know:D) but he's grown into the role and I wouldn't ever fear for him in the position. Although he played midfield for UCD back in the day and further out field in general. I play corner back myself and theres nothing worse than when the ball is coming in at the right height and right pace with acres of space in front of the corner forward. You have two options: Get out in front every time and don't let it behind you or if you aint gettting there first, give the corner forward the yard and try and get a block in and don't let him past you.

A full back could clear nine out of ten balls and let the full forward turn him the once and he's remembered as having a sh1te game. I'm always reluctant to criticise the full back line of any team.
Hutchinson tried to get out in front and slipped. Turned out to be a costly mistake but his teammates helped him out in the end.

Mountainlad · 16-06-2011 07:40PM

deisebhoy17 wrote: »

Look I appreciate your a big Lawlor fan and judging by your name your possibly from the same neck of the woods/club as him so I can understand you backing him. But to say that but for injuries hed be a regular at wing back for Waterford is wide of the mark. Hes had loads of chances (im not saying he wont get anymore) and tbh anytime Ive seen him he struggled for us. Last year people say he did well against Clare and the 2 games against Cork but I think he was limited. I cant recall him ever actually fielding a high ball or actually picking the ball up and making huge clearances down the field like you'd expect a top quality fullback to do. The tactic against Aisaki for the 2 games was just to pull, tear and drag at him, get in his face, however he was on the brink of a red card and eventually had to be taken off. which obviously is what he was told to do but underlines the lack of confidence that Davy & his selectors had in him to go toe to toe with his direct marker. Tactic failed against Lar Corbett in the all-Ireland semi and while no one is blaming Lawlor for that defeat he was amongst many who was out of his depth that day. I think he was taken off again that day. Your regular full back should not be one of the first fellahs to be hauled off in every game. Admittedly a lot to do with the tactics used but the big players always step up no matter what.

We had one player who played very well against Tipp, Mullane. All I can say is go back and watch the two Cork games as well, you'll be suprised. I'm not saying he's Brian Lohan or Darragh Ryan or even Paul Curran, but he's the best option we've had. Plenty of people seem to have jumped to Hutchison's defense. I'm not actually from the same club as it happens, a neighbouring club. I do know people at the club. I dunno whether Davy will play him in the Final or not. If he goes well enough in training he probably will. The one concern I'd have is his lack of competitive game time this year. I still believe, however, that he is our best option at present. Brick is too valuable where he plays.

I agree with whoever was talking about Hutchison being isolated and that Davy didn't know how to combat it. You'd hope he'll learn from it.

And to Hardybuck, sorry I probably took that a bit personally for no reason!

Deise Tom · 17-06-2011 08:14AM

http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/deise-hurlers-get-their-way-as-club-football-games-off-158141.html

Hardly ideal preperation for the footballers who also have a qualifier coming up and i am sure the players involved could have done with a competive game ahead of their game.

STIG83 · 17-06-2011 12:47PM

Some of the clubs around Waterford must be struggling with lack of funds, i know of one club that is having a scrap collection next weekend to raise funds.

premierstone · 17-06-2011 12:53PM

STIG83 wrote: »

All of the clubs around the country must be struggling with lack of funds, i know of one club that is having a scrap collection next weekend to raise funds.

FYP, tough times and it aint going to get better anytime soon

STIG83 · 17-06-2011 12:59PM

premierstone wrote: »

FYP, tough times and it aint going to get better anytime soon

1st time i heard of clubs doing a scrap collection for money, but i suppose with the price of scrap at the moment it's an ideal time to do it.

Psychedelic · 17-06-2011 03:38PM

Some very in-depth analysis on the game last Sunday:
http://anmoltoir-hurling.blogspot.com/2011/06/waterford-survive-davy-fitzgeralds.html?spref=tw

Waterford GAA Discussion Thread 2009-2011

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