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Chivarly = ''benevolent sexism'

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  • 15-06-2011 9:42am
    #1
    myflipflops
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,817 ✭✭✭


    Another bullsh*t story from bullsh*t research. Why is the world so quick to try and label everything these days?

    In some ways, it's great to hear. The next time the 4'10, 95lbs lady from reception asks me to carry something that she cannot lift, I shall say "NO! I refuse to be implicated in helping to create a culture of women being seen as the vulnerable sex and encouraging inequality and injustice. You may carry that heavy box yourself!

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/relationships/8575363/Chivalry-is-actually-benevolent-sexism-feminists-conclude.html
    If the age of chivalry is dead, it appears a group of feminists psychologists are trying to ensure it is never revived, concluding that a man who helps his wife with her heavy shopping is actually guilty of "benevolent sexism

    The researchers created a list of such damaging acts as: helping a woman to choose the right computer, calling a group of both men and women "guys" and offering to do the driving on a long distance journey.

    Even men who think they are expressing affection might be guilty - the scientists said calling a woman a "chick", showering her with unwanted affection or saying that you cannot live without her could also be sexist.

    The researchers, from the feminist Society for the Psychology of Women, which is based in Washington DC, said there were many acts of unnoticed sexism taking place every day through acts or comments that suggested women could not cope without men's help.

    They said the victims might be unaware of the damage but the acts were helping to create a culture of women being seen as the vulnerable sex and encouraging inequality and injustice.

    The study concluded that both men and women were "not aware of the overall prevalence and extent of sexism in their personal lives".

    However, they recognised that women could also be guilty.

    The study was conducted among workers of both sexes in America and Germany and volunteers were asked to keep diaries in which they were asked to note when they encountered examples from a long list of both sexist and non-sexist incidents, without being told what the study was for.

    Writing for the Psychology of Women Quarterly, co-authors Julia Becker and Janet Swim said: "Many men not only lack attention to such incidents but also are less likely to perceive sexist incidents as being discriminatory and potentially harmful for women.

    "Women endorse sexist beliefs, at least in part, because they do not attend to subtle, aggregate forms of sexism in their personal lives."

    They said making people aware of the sexism would help to change attitudes and help men feel "empathy" for the women who are the victims of "benevolent sexism".

    Psychology of Women Quarterly is the official publication of the Society for the Psychology of Women and is described as a "feminist, scientific peer-reviewed" journal.


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    #2
    Messi2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 106 ✭✭Messi2


    Just read this too and came here to see if it was posted.

    I will no longer drive to my mothers house every Sunday to bring her to Tesco. Its sexist.

    And if I do indeed get married, I refuse to tell her I want to be with her forever. Its sexist.


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    #3
    Morgase
    Registered Users Posts: 737 ✭✭✭Morgase


    In fairness, there's a difference between helping any woman or man who asks for help in lifting something, and insisting on carrying something for a woman simply because she's female and for no other reason.

    The former is having manners, which I applaud. The latter is chivalry, which I am not terribly fond of.

    Having said that, men in Ireland are bought up to be chivalrous, and many women still expect men to be chivalrous, so they're stuck! What is a man to do then?


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    #4
    metrovelvet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭metrovelvet


    I mow my mother's lawn for her, is that benevolent ageism?

    I find it very funny that whenever a male family member or friend visits us, all of a sudden they insist on mowing my lawn, lifting in the 40 lb coal bag into the house, do DIY stuff, and I do this stuff myself the rest of the year. They wont cook or babysit though.


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    #5
    Bottle_of_Smoke
    Registered Users Posts: 9,770 ✭✭✭Bottle_of_Smoke


    The people they quote come across like a satire show. Brasseye type stuff like.
    In fairness, there's a difference between helping any woman or man who asks for help in lifting something, and insisting on carrying something for a woman simply because she's female and for no other reason.

    Its complicated though. I mean take where its a heavy bag going up a stairs. Take a girl who can lift it but would require a lot of effort. Whereas I can lift it with relative ease. Surely I'd be a dick for not offering? And I also wouldn't want them to decline out of politeness so I'd probably tend to insist.

    Be the same if it was an elderly man


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    #6
    EL_Loco
    Registered Users Posts: 901 ✭✭✭EL_Loco


    showering her with unwanted affection or saying that you cannot live without her could also be sexist.

    or creepy.

    I dunno, this kinda stuff would have you second guessing an act of kindness. I say feck it, offer anyway, if it happens to be a feminist psychologist I'm sure she'll let you know she's fine.

    I have received help from my fellow men, and was thankful for it at the time. Should I feel somehow patronised for receiving assistance a couple of times in my life?

    I do see the point they're trying to make but, it's buried DEEP in sh|te.


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    #7
    Logical Fallacy
    Registered Users Posts: 5,933 ✭✭✭Logical Fallacy


    Which definition of "chivalry" are they using?

    There have been many.

    Today i believe it's encompassed by the world "manners".


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    #8
    MitchKoobski
    Registered Users Posts: 6,101 ✭✭✭MitchKoobski


    I'm not offering to help because I think you're weak or because you're a woman.

    I'm offering to help because I know full well based on your build that you will fall backwards down the stairs if you try to lift that television up the stairss, and if I don't offer help, when you DO fall, I'll get an earful for not offering to help.


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    #9
    Morgase
    Registered Users Posts: 737 ✭✭✭Morgase


    Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »
    Its complicated though. I mean take where its a heavy bag going up a stairs. Take a girl who can lift it but would require a lot of effort. Whereas I can lift it with relative ease. Surely I'd be a dick for not offering? And I also wouldn't want them to decline out of politeness so I'd probably tend to insist.

    Be the same if it was an elderly man

    It sure is complicated! A lot of the time you're damned if you do, and damned if you don't.

    From my own point of view, if I need help I'm not too proud to ask for it. However if it just takes effort for me to carry something I'll just get on with it, I think it would be lazy of me to accept help every time a little bit of effort was required!

    I have to admit I would get a bit peeved if a man was to insist on helping if I declined the offer.


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    #10
    Morgase
    Registered Users Posts: 737 ✭✭✭Morgase


    MitchKoobski wrote: »
    I'm not offering to help because I think you're weak or because you're a woman.

    I'm offering to help because I know full well based on your build that you will fall backwards down the stairs if you try to lift that television up the stairss, and if I don't offer help, when you DO fall, I'll get an earful for not offering to help.

    Are you talking about your own girlfriend / particular woman there, or women in general? I'd have no sympathy for someone who would bawl a man out of it for not offering to help if they knew they were not up to carrying out the task solo.


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    #11
    MitchKoobski
    Registered Users Posts: 6,101 ✭✭✭MitchKoobski


    Morgase wrote: »
    Are you talking about your own girlfriend / particular woman there, or women in general? I'd have no sympathy for someone who would bawl a man out of it for not offering to help if they knew they were not up to carrying out the task solo.
    For me it seems to be in general. You offer to help and "I'm fine, I can do it by myself." I don't bother offering to help and it's "YOU COULD HAVE HELPED!!"

    Probably just me having bad luck with people though.....

    Used to work in Homebase and you'd offer help lifting stuff three times the size of 'em, only to be told "No I've got it" and the drop it outside, coming in demanding a new one and complaining that I didn't carry it out.


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    #12
    Teyla Emmagan
    Registered Users Posts: 5,641 ✭✭✭Teyla Emmagan


    If that's sexism then I love it!


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    #13
    Logical Fallacy
    Registered Users Posts: 5,933 ✭✭✭Logical Fallacy


    Teyla Emmagan wrote: »
    If that's sexism then I love it!

    It's okay, there will be a "study" along shortly to tell you that the reason you love it is because you are subconsciously indoctrinated by modern media into accepting a submissive role to males in modern society as Rupert Murdoch and Bill Gates pool their power to ensure the survival of a phalacentric future. :D


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    #14
    metrovelvet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭metrovelvet


    Logical Fallacy wrote: »
    It's okay, there will be a "study" along shortly to tell you that the reason you love it is because you are subconsciously indoctrinated by modern media into accepting a submissive role to males in modern society as Rupert Murdoch and Bill Gates pool their power to ensure the survival of a phalacentric future. :D

    Well there is something to that...possibly.... it could appear to me the finer instruments of reinforcing dependency, when it's men doing stuff for women.

    Or it could be seen as an insidious comment 'I dont think you are capable of doing this by yourself."

    Important to keep in mind this stuff comes out of the US where the moral value placed on independance and self reliance is much more intense than in Europe.


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    #15
    wandatowell
    Registered Users Posts: 8,435 ✭✭✭wandatowell


    o god that is a scary article, actually no its hilarious


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    #16
    Logical Fallacy
    Registered Users Posts: 5,933 ✭✭✭Logical Fallacy


    metrovelvet wrote: »
    Well there is something to that...possibly.... it could appear to me the finer instruments of reinforcing dependency, when it's men doing stuff for women.

    Or it could be seen as an insidious comment 'I dont think you are capable of doing this by yourself."

    Important to keep in mind this stuff comes out of the US where the moral value placed on independance and self reliance is much more intense than in Europe.

    It could also be about enforcing servitude in males...remember, when you get a dog to do a trick you give it a little treat.:)

    (other side of the coin)


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    #17
    metrovelvet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭metrovelvet


    Logical Fallacy wrote: »
    It could also be about enforcing servitude in males...remember, when you get a dog to do a trick you give it a little treat.:)

    (other side of the coin)

    Maybe... but you dont show charity to your equals... its the kind of performing low status that you can only do when you have superior status... like when you kneel down to talk to children if you get me...

    If you are a parent, you feed, clothe and serve your kids, so they are acts of servitude, but your status is still well above theirs.

    Have you ever helped another man with his bags? Shopping? At the airport? etc.. would you be more likely to help a woman?

    Think about parents who keep their kids dependant by doing everything for them.


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    #18
    Dravokivich
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,360 CMod ✭✭✭✭Dravokivich


    Needed to look up benevolent, appearently it can be defined as "Well meaning." So taking that into account, I'm a nice sexist, that has the interst of a woman in consideration. So with sexism in general normally being seen to oppress women, why is that a problem?


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    #19
    Logical Fallacy
    Registered Users Posts: 5,933 ✭✭✭Logical Fallacy


    metrovelvet wrote: »
    Maybe... but you dont show charity to your equals... its the kind of performing low status that you can only do when you have superior status... like when you kneel down to talk to children if you get me...

    If you are a parent, you feed, clothe and serve your kids, so they are acts of servitude, but your status is still well above theirs.

    Like Chivalry though, Charity can have many interpretations. I certainly wouldn't consider helping someone carry something or holding a door for the person behind me (which i do in and out of the Swan center every day regardless of who is walking in behind me ) to be an act of charity.

    It's just a little flash of the manners the both parents put in me as i was growing up.

    It's like in an old job i worked in all the the canteen staff knew exactly who i was from about 2 weeks after i started working there. When i was leaving after 5 years one of them told me the reason they all knew me was because i was one of a handful of people who would say "please" after my order and "thanks" after receiving it...I certainly wasn't doing it because i felt they were less than me...they were people and deserving of manners and respect in the workplace.

    I'm sure all kinds of folk would come up with all kinds of reasons for my behaviour but to me it's very simple...manners are important.

    It's why i don't hold with this modern view of "chivalry" as meaning you hold a door for a woman, or carry a bag for her. Chivalry is an old concept involving Lords of the Land and horses and being willing to lay down your life in defence of your realm.


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    #20
    metrovelvet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭metrovelvet


    Well please and thank you are marks of respect, no ambiguity there and pretty gender neutral. I wouldn't put those in the chivalry camp.

    I remember when we were visiting some people at a friend of mines house. My son was there and a little girl was there, about a year older but still in the toddler stage. My friend started coaching him in chivalrous manners, like get her a chair and pull it out for her and blah blah blah... her mother is an arch feminist and I was thinking 'UH OH' ...


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    #21
    Logical Fallacy
    Registered Users Posts: 5,933 ✭✭✭Logical Fallacy


    metrovelvet wrote: »
    Well please and thank you are marks of respect, no ambiguity there and pretty gender neutral. I wouldn't put those in the chivalry camp.

    I remember when we were visiting some people at a friend of mines house. My son was there and a little girl was there, about a year older but still in the toddler stage. My friend started coaching him in chivalrous manners, like get her a chair and pull it out for her and blah blah blah... her mother is an arch feminist and I was thinking 'UH OH' ...

    Lawyer Parents : "In our highly litigious world i think pulling out a chair is a very bad idea...if the person slips and injuries themselves sitting down you could really be leaving yourself exposed to a law suit".

    Feminist Parents : "People are very capable of pulling out their own chairs thank you very much, and they certainly don't need to sit in the chair that has been reserved for them by a man!"

    Carpenter Parents : "That's quite a nice chair!"


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    #22
    WindSock
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,239 ✭✭✭✭WindSock


    There's nothing wrong with having manners and helping someone if they are struggling. However always helping or accepting help when well able creates a culture of uselessness, imo. It comes to be expected and be expected of, for no good reason really....well the idea of goodwill I suppose. It is tough as you know a person means well, I think it is up to the helpee to politely decline if they don't need the help


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    #23
    WindSock
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,239 ✭✭✭✭WindSock


    And the helper to not feel insulted by this. I live by the learn by doing mantra. I don't like to think how many women can't or won't change their tyres because help is always at hand.


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    #24
    metrovelvet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭metrovelvet


    WindSock wrote: »
    And the helper to not feel insulted by this. I live by the learn by doing mantra. I don't like to think how many women can't or won't change their tyres because help is always at hand.

    So true. I can carry in a 40 lb bag of coal but I cant change a tire. However, I also know a number of men who can't change a tire either ...and cant even drive now that I think of it.

    Then again...I know a lot of men who dont even realise they have to defrost the fridge every so often.


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    #25
    SugarHigh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,265 ✭✭✭SugarHigh


    I agree with the too much help is a bad thing and I also blame it for the amount of women who can't change a wheel. The problem is that there are many situations where you will be scorned for not helping a woman even if you wouldn't help a man in the same scenario. While one woman will give out to you for helping her another one will give out to you for not helping her.


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    #26
    MitchKoobski
    Registered Users Posts: 6,101 ✭✭✭MitchKoobski


    metrovelvet wrote: »
    Then again...I know a lot of men who dont even realise they have to defrost the fridge every so often.
    So much ice in the fridge that you can't close it?

    You bought a super cold fridge by mistake, by a new one.

    :pac:


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    #27
    SugarHigh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,265 ✭✭✭SugarHigh


    metrovelvet wrote: »
    So true. I can carry in a 40 lb bag of coal but I cant change a tire. However, I also know a number of men who can't change a tire either ...and cant even drive now that I think of it.

    Then again...I know a lot of men who dont even realise they have to defrost the fridge every so often.
    I know a guy who used to work in a DIY store and he said the women never had to lift anything, so they essentially were getting away with doing less work. Now if a female employee asked him to lift something and he refused I'm pretty sure he'd be the one in trouble.


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    #28
    Mr.Applepie
    Registered Users Posts: 2,079 ✭✭✭Mr.Applepie


    I saw this in the Indo this morning and sent the link to my wife proclaiming I would no longer carry stuff for her as I didn't want to be sexist. Here was her reply
    What a load of balls. men and women are different and if we weren't why would be interested in getting married to each other. That's absolute bull****. If I know I'm significantly stronger than someone I will offer to carry their bags regardless of their sex - that is all. If you eliminate all the "benevolent sexism" then you eliminate everything that makes it nice to be with someone of the opposite sex. women like to be looked after in some aspects and men like to show their strength and consideration - it's an expression of love - just like when a woman cooks food for her husband or scrubs his clothes clean.

    Why not just tell a pregnant woman who has fallen in a hole that she must care for herself cos she's just succumbing to societal stereotypes!

    Equality in my head is the ability to do something no matter the gender. Once you are able/allowed it then just boils down to personal choice.


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    #29
    mariebeth
    Registered Users Posts: 892 ✭✭✭mariebeth


    Woops - from that article, it looks like I'm guilty of being sexist myself. I'm female & often say to a group of friends 'lads' or 'guys' :rolleyes:

    honestly this kind of study just makes me wonder, there are so many other problems going on in the world today & people think that men offering to carry a heavy load is sexist.

    I know my own limits, I have a good idea of what I can & can't lift, and if something is heavy & a man just happened to offer to carry it for me, I would have no problem letting him. On the other hand, I've often been going in to a shop and held the door open for men who were coming behind me...is that being sexist towards men? (I've also held doors open for other women as well)

    Life is a two-way street, people should be able to help out and be given help without it being made in to a sexism argument. Honestly sometimes this whole 'political correctness' crap gets ridiculous!


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    #30
    metrovelvet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭metrovelvet


    SugarHigh wrote: »
    I know a guy who used to work in a DIY store and he said the women never had to lift anything, so they essentially were getting away with doing less work. Now if a female employee asked him to lift something and he refused I'm pretty sure he'd be the one in trouble.

    Lets be under no illusions. While I can get the coal bag out of the boot of the car and around the gate, it does take me 20 minutes to do it.


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    #31
    Morgase
    Registered Users Posts: 737 ✭✭✭Morgase


    @ Mr. Applepie's wife: There are more fun and mutually beneficial ways of expressing love than scrubbing your husband's clothes clean ;)


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