difference between nargc and country side alliance

browning 12 bore · 12-06-2011 06:50PM #1

can any tell me that is in a gun club and is with country side alliance is it the same as nargc or much diference thanks

cavan shooter · 12-06-2011 08:09PM

I have both NARGC and CAI membership and you are better of with the NARGC if there is an Accident. NARGC pay up no quibble on any claim, The fine print with the CAI is un believable eg: You have to suffer permanent disability with the CAI insurance, but if you break your ankle out shooting then the NARGC Compensation fund will payout and your entitled to the out of work weekly claim.

NARGC are long established and clubs can get a subsidies towards pheasant release, and there are subsidies available for vermin traps, vermin shot etc. The NARGC and CAI are just different bodies, how good a club is depends on the effort put into it by members.

homerhop · 12-06-2011 08:41PM

The NARGC is not an insurance, it is a compensation fund, so if the organisation got hit with a few major clains it could effectively wipe out the fund.

cavan shooter · 12-06-2011 08:58PM

homerhop wrote: »

The NARGC is not an insurance, it is a compensation fund, so if the organisation got hit with a few major clains it could effectively wipe out the fund.

Thats' right it is a compensation fund however the fund itself is insured, If I remember right it started off as insurance then went to a fund because they felt they weren't getting value for money This was the late 80's me thinks.

DavyDee · 13-06-2011 08:00AM

cavan shooter wrote: »

Thats' right it is a compensation fund however the fund itself is insured, If I remember right it started off as insurance then went to a fund because they felt they weren't getting value for money This was the late 80's me thinks.

There is also a limit to what can be paid out so I'd say the fund is safe enough!

Dusty87 · 13-06-2011 08:12AM

DavyDee wrote: »

There is also a limit to what can be paid out so I'd say the fund is safe enough!

so if the limit is reached, any other claims are useless????

cavan shooter · 13-06-2011 08:22AM

Dusty87 wrote: »

so if the limit is reached, any other claims are useless????

Not from my understanding the fund is insured against that eventuality Chris Gavigan gave a very interesting presentation on this aspect of the fund before explaining the types of claim/payouts and how the fund is protected.

Fallow01 · 13-06-2011 10:52AM

browning 12 bore wrote: »

can any tell me that is in a gun club and is with country side alliance is it the same as nargc or much diference thanks

Both very good in their own right, but I think the CAI is by far the better, 1. it's cheaper 2. you can get your insurance over the phone/ email and can be on cover within minutes, were as with NARGC it can take an age to get your cover, depending on the local gun club secretary. 3. With CAI you don't have to be a member of a gun club to join.

pedroeibar1 · 13-06-2011 12:38PM

NARGC / CAI are quite different and similar at the same time.
THE CATCH
Both NARGC and CAI do not tell you upfront that if you have any other liability insurance they will not pay. If you are a homeowner your bog-standard household policy covers you for a wide range of ‘Liability’ claims e.g you put a nail into a wall and damage the next-door neighbour’s house, he sues, you are covered. Similarly, unless shooting accidents are specifically excluded (a very rare occurrence) you are covered by your household policy to its limit - usually 10 million.

So, you are out shooting, put a few pellets in your mate’s a$$, he sues because he cannot sit in his taxi for a few weeks, and both CAI and NARGC will decline to pay, saying that they will step in only IF your household insurer refuses to pay or if the award to Mr. Mate is above the level of indemnity on your household policy.
That means there is a legal merry-go-round. your mate has to sue you, you then enjoin your home insurer and your shoot ‘insurer’ (NARGC or CAI) in the proceedings; the lawyers have a field day, your mate has a lot of grief and you are put through hell.

The differences -

NARGC is primarily a club for game shooters – ‘Regional Game Councils’ in the name is self-explanatory. They also subsidize pheasant release, vermin control, etc. They provide insurance for members of Gun Clubs, you cannot get insurance directly from them.
CAI covers a multitude of disciplines, from carriage-driving, eventing, driven shoots, syndicates, stalking, etc. Membership is open to anyone with an interest in the countryside.

Protection / Insurance

This is where there is a big difference but there also are big similarities.
NARGC have created their own fund for members, into which part of every annual subscription is paid. This means they have a ‘treasure chest from which any claim is paid. Any profits from the activity are kept in the fund for the benefit of the members. The maximum liability on any accident is Euro 10 million. That fund now stands at more than Euro 8 million (per NARGC site.) Any claims arising are paid from this fund – to date, since 1984, about euro 5.5 million has been paid out. On top of this NARGC have taken out an insurance policy called an ‘excess of loss’ (EoL) which pays out the difference to an award above 1 million (e.g. Shooter with NARGC accidently kills B the courts award B’s family 10 million – NARGC pays out 1 million, their EoL policy insurer pays out 9 mill. The NARGC site does not say if there are reinstatements i.e. if the above event happens more than once a year cover is put back in place. From a ‘protection’ perspective the NARGC fund is perfectly adequate and is deemed so by everyone from Coillte to Bord na Mona. It covers shooters when shooting abroad in the EU.

CAI have a scheme with an insurance company and provide a very wide-ranging level of protections e.g. if you have a ‘Group Scheme’ any guest invited to shoot with you is covered, as are anyone doing work on a shoot e.g. Joe goes out to fill the feeders, a barrel falls on him he sues and CAI insurance, to a limit of 10 million is there to protect you. CAI pay an annual premium to an insurer, there is a broker involved (who obviously gets a commission) and the insurer gets any profits/losses. Currently the insurer is Chartis ( another name for AIG) which is one of the biggest insurers in the world. CAI do not contribute to clubs, but do a lot of very good PR, fund studies of wild life (e.g. partridge surveys.) Their shooters are covered only in the UK & Ireland. IMO they are very UK centered, despite trying to grow here in RoI.

P.

cavan shooter · 13-06-2011 03:37PM

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

NARGC / CAI are quite different and similar at the same time.
THE CATCH
Both NARGC and CAI do not tell you upfront that if you have any other liability insurance they will not pay. If you are a homeowner your bog-standard household policy covers you for a wide range of ‘Liability’ claims e.g you put a nail into a wall and damage the next-door neighbour’s house, he sues, you are covered. Similarly, unless shooting accidents are specifically excluded (a very rare occurrence) you are covered by your household policy to its limit - usually 10 million.

So, you are out shooting, put a few pellets in your mate’s a$$, he sues because he cannot sit in his taxi for a few weeks, and both CAI and NARGC will decline to pay, saying that they will step in only IF your household insurer refuses to pay or if the award to Mr. Mate is above the level of indemnity on your household policy.
That means there is a legal merry-go-round. your mate has to sue you, you then enjoin your home insurer and your shoot ‘insurer’ (NARGC or CAI) in the proceedings; the lawyers have a field day, your mate has a lot of grief and you are put through hell.

The differences -

NARGC is primarily a club for game shooters – ‘Regional Game Councils’ in the name is self-explanatory. They also subsidize pheasant release, vermin control, etc. They provide insurance for members of Gun Clubs, you cannot get insurance directly from them.
CAI covers a multitude of disciplines, from carriage-driving, eventing, driven shoots, syndicates, stalking, etc. Membership is open to anyone with an interest in the countryside.

Protection / Insurance

This is where there is a big difference but there also are big similarities.
NARGC have created their own fund for members, into which part of every annual subscription is paid. This means they have a ‘treasure chest from which any claim is paid. Any profits from the activity are kept in the fund for the benefit of the members. The maximum liability on any accident is Euro 10 million. That fund now stands at more than Euro 8 million (per NARGC site.) Any claims arising are paid from this fund – to date, since 1984, about euro 5.5 million has been paid out. On top of this NARGC have taken out an insurance policy called an ‘excess of loss’ (EoL) which pays out the difference to an award above 1 million (e.g. Shooter with NARGC accidently kills B the courts award B’s family 10 million – NARGC pays out 1 million, their EoL policy insurer pays out 9 mill. The NARGC site does not say if there are reinstatements i.e. if the above event happens more than once a year cover is put back in place. From a ‘protection’ perspective the NARGC fund is perfectly adequate and is deemed so by everyone from Coillte to Bord na Mona. It covers shooters when shooting abroad in the EU.

CAI have a scheme with an insurance company and provide a very wide-ranging level of protections e.g. if you have a ‘Group Scheme’ any guest invited to shoot with you is covered, as are anyone doing work on a shoot e.g. Joe goes out to fill the feeders, a barrel falls on him he sues and CAI insurance, to a limit of 10 million is there to protect you. CAI pay an annual premium to an insurer, there is a broker involved (who obviously gets a commission) and the insurer gets any profits/losses. Currently the insurer is Chartis ( another name for AIG) which is one of the biggest insurers in the world. CAI do not contribute to clubs, but do a lot of very good PR, fund studies of wild life (e.g. partridge surveys.) Their shooters are covered only in the UK & Ireland. IMO they are very UK centered, despite trying to grow here in RoI.

P.

Thanks for that, I didnt know about the first bit as both lads that I know that got hurt had there claims settled very quickly so I didnt think that type of messing went on

pedroeibar1 · 13-06-2011 06:49PM

cavan shooter wrote: »

Thanks for that, I didnt know about the first bit as both lads that I know that got hurt had there claims settled very quickly so I didnt think that type of messing went on

If it is small claim, I'd expect no problems, particularly if it was a young guy with no other insurance. However, put a pellet into someone and cause harm, they will fight.
I would love someone from either CAI or NARGC to correct me on this;)
Rs
P.

tfox · 13-06-2011 11:38PM

I'm insured with CAI (group discount) Just got my renewal in the post €45.

Friend of mine is insured with them, his deerhound picked up a cavalier king charles in its mouth one day and carried it 1/2 mile down the road in its mouth resulting in €1700 of vets bills.

CAI paid up no fuss at all. I found them very good to deal with, I needed to move the date of my renewal so I had a full years cover at the start of the shooting season to satisfy coilte. In doing this I could technically no longer avail of my group discount (deeerhound society member), but nice lady on the phone said theyd give it to me at the concession rate

Had this argument with a certain chairman of the IDS, when he was insisting that I needed to take out NARGC insurance to continue being a member. When I pointed out the my CAI ins more than exceeded the cover offerd by the NARGC he dug in his heels, no longer a member of that rediculous society :rolleyes:

CJhaughey · 14-06-2011 02:11PM

tfox wrote: »

Had this argument with a certain chairman of the IDS, when he was insisting that I needed to take out NARGC insurance to continue being a member. When I pointed out the my CAI ins more than exceeded the cover offerd by the NARGC he dug in his heels, no longer a member of that rediculous society :rolleyes:

I sometimes think that IDS stands for Irish D**khead society.

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difference between nargc and country side alliance

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