When atheists go too far

philologos · 12-06-2011 07:59PM

AhSureTisGrand wrote: »

I was saying that grace and tolerance would be immoral to you if they caused more people to go to Hell (assuming you do indeed care about them). The reason you are not more forceful is that such an approach doesn't work

It is by the grace that society gives us that Christians even have the liberty to share their beliefs. I think respecting authority and living alongside others is hugely important. The Scriptures tell us to share our views with respect and gentleness (1 Peter 3:15). It is by grace that we love others. Jesus forgave us and showed us mercy, as a result Christians should show love and mercy to others including those with whom we disagree in society.

I'm not forceful because it isn't Christian to be forceful. I want people to decide for themselves to follow Jesus just as I did. All I want to do is to be able to help people as much as possible in making that decision if they want me to. Most of the conversations I get into about my Christian beliefs are by people asking me about them.

MagicMarker · 12-06-2011 08:05PM

Asry wrote: »

But I'm not doing anything to children or anyone's rights. And they are my personal beliefs. I'm explaining to you what people are arguing against, not ramming my doctrine down your throats.

Just like I really couldn't give a flying fu** what people believe, so long as they don't try and make me believe it, too.

I'm just telling you why some atheists are vocal with their opinions. It's not a case of ''why do you care if you don't believe in it'', it's a case of people like you teaching children lies, people like you standing in the way of equal rights.

You said yourself in that last comment ''so long as they don't try and make me believe it, too''... Well guess what? People like you DID try to make me believe it, and are currently doing the same to millions of other children across the world. That's why we care

dvpower · 12-06-2011 08:06PM

philologos wrote: »

That's the logical conclusion of my belief in hell.

The logical conclusion of a belief in hell is to be repulsed by it and anyone who would accept any person being put there.

AhSureTisGrand · 12-06-2011 08:10PM

philologos wrote: »

Christians should show love and mercy to others including those with whom we disagree in society.

But surely saving someone's soul is among the greatest acts of love there can be? Seems to me that a "good" Christian should do their utmost to convert people, as long as it doesn't amount to coercion

12-06-2011 08:10PM

philologos: what do you say to the person who cannot believe in God or Jesus. I cannot bring myself to believe, even if I wanted to. It's like when you find out that Santy isn't real: you try and you try to believe again, but you know it's futile. A person cannot make themselves believe in something that they find unbelievable.

Is it just that I, as somebody who cannot believe in God or Jesus, even if I wanted to and tried and tried, should suffer Hell for my "inability" to believe? I know that you believe that's just. And that, my friend, is why religion corrupts: it makes good people believe horrible things.

Asry · 12-06-2011 08:11PM

MagicMarker wrote: »

I'm just telling you why some atheists are vocal with their opinions. It's not a case of ''why do you care if you don't believe in it'', it's a case of people like you teaching children lies, people like you standing in the way of equal rights.

You said yourself in that last comment ''so long as they don't try and make me believe it, too''... Well guess what? People like you DID try to make me believe it, and are currently doing the same to millions of other children across the world. That's why we care

...And people like you try to make people and children believe lies as well. We'll never know who's right or wrong. Those people teaching others about the love of Christ and the promise of eternal salvation were trying to help them in their own way. Can't please everyone.

philologos · 12-06-2011 08:12PM

AhSureTisGrand wrote: »

But surely saving someone's soul is among the greatest acts of love there can be? Seems to me that a "good" Christian should do their utmost to convert people, as long as it doesn't amount to coercion

I agree with you. Christians should share their faith with others, just in the best manner possible, with respect and grace towards others.

gvn wrote: »

philologos: what do you say to the person who cannot believe in God or Jesus. I cannot bring myself to believe, even if I wanted to. It's like when you find out that Santy isn't real: you try and you try to believe again, but you know it's futile. A person cannot make themselves believe in something that they find unbelievable.

Is it just that I, as somebody who cannot believe in God or Jesus, even if I wanted to and tried and tried, should suffer Hell for my "inability" to believe? I know that you believe that's just. And that, my friend, is why religion corrupts: it makes good people believe horrible things.

I don't believe that it is impossible. For a long time I probably would have thought it was impossible but something changed and I think it can change for anyone.

MagicMarker · 12-06-2011 08:15PM

Asry wrote: »

...And people like you try to make people and children believe lies as well.

Which lies are those?

johnmcdnl · 12-06-2011 08:16PM

philologos wrote: »

Loving means seeking the very best for people.

No it doesn't

–noun
1.
a profoundly tender, passionate affection for another person.
2.
a feeling of warm personal attachment or deep affection, as for a parent, child, or friend.
3.
sexual passion or desire.

–verb (used with object)
15.
to have love or affection for: All her pupils love her.
16.
to have a profoundly tender, passionate affection for (another person).
17.
to have a strong liking for; take great pleasure in: to love music.

seeking the best for everyone is called seeking the best for everyone or looking out for them... not loving them..

it's about liking.. you can't just pick your own meaning for words to suit yourself... that's what the worst kind of religious fanatics like suicide bombers do.. they take their own interpression for bible passages to justify their beliefs... your clearly a homophone and you try to use biblical passages from several thousand years ago to justify it... which is wrong and evil in my opinion... judging someone on their sexual orientation which is the way god created them is wrong... why does god want to test/punish those that are gay seeing as he made them in his image... they were made in god's image - so god is gay?? this is borderline blasphemy here so that could be €25,000 because i'm daring to speak against god... is it right that I'm not allowed express a valid argument because it's going to offend some people... well that's the law in Ireland and it's completely unfair as atheists are clearly being discriminated against as we aren't allowed express ourselves because of your beliefs based on a 2000 year old book....

another point - do you believe in creationism... if you don't as a huge number of "Christians" don't anymore - well then why do you believe every other passage in the bible... if you take creationism as a metaphor well why not take jesus as a metaphor....

philologos · 12-06-2011 08:18PM

^^ So people who love each other don't hope the very best for each other in life?

I believe in evolution, and it's not about taking it as a metaphor it's that the passage in the Hebrew lends itself to being regarded as allegory. I think God created the world, and the scientific state of the world can help us find out more about how He made it. Not even the strongest "literalist" takes the Bible entirely literally as if one took Jesus' parables literally they would miss the point and think it as an agricultural handbook. I read the Bible in a way that is most faithful to how it is written, that means exploring genre, context etc. The Bible is a library of books, not just one so one has to take care in reading it.

If Jesus weren't a historical figure then I might be more inclined to see him as a mere metaphor

Asry · 12-06-2011 08:20PM

that there is no God or no Heaven, no Son and no Hell. To me, your truths would be lies, whereas my truths are lies for you.

But like, I really don't want to fight about it. I've been lambasted by athiests all my life, and have never once gotten up on my soapbox to feed people things that they don't want to hear. But I couldn't stand around and watch you rip someone else apart just because their ideology doesn't match with yours. It makes you no better than the fundamentalist Christians like the Westboro Baptists.

All of this, my beliefs, makes me really happy, and I'm keeping my personal beliefs to myself, here. It's you who's dragging all those misguided people in on this and tarring me with their brush. People f**k up in all walks of life - it's what people do, because we're all only human. If I want to believe in what you think are fairy tales, and I'm doing no harm to anyone, then why attack me?

Dave! · 12-06-2011 08:20PM

philologos wrote: »

I don't believe that it is impossible. For a long time I probably would have thought it was impossible but something changed and I think it can change for anyone.

Belief is not a voluntary thing... You review the evidence, and then you're naturally either convinced or you're not. All you can do really is present more evidence, but I doubt you'll have anything that the poster has not already encountered.

12-06-2011 08:20PM

philologos wrote: »

I don't believe that it is impossible. For a long time I probably would have thought it was impossible but something changed and I think it can change for anyone.

That's a big assumption, though, don't you think?

A Christian telling me to believe in God or Jesus is tantamount to a person telling me to believe in Santa Claus. I could not, no matter how much time and dedication I gave to it, bring myself to believe in either. This is the case with many, many other atheists I know, too.

If I were to die tomorrow I'd suffer an eternity in Hell, according to you. This would be through no fault of my own. I cannot believe in God, so that means of salvation is closed to me. My not being able to believe in Jesus is quite an obstacle if he's my own means of salvation.

Mindme · 12-06-2011 08:20PM

philologos wrote: »

Ellis Dee: I think it's more conspiracy theory material alá Obama is a Muslim hysteria but each to their own

Kind of defeats the purpose of the faith as "indoctrination" thesis? No? :pac:

Indoctrination takes a lot of escaping from. Imagine a twelve year old Roman catholic suddenly having the arrogance to question all his so-called learned teachers, parents, relatives, Priests, Bishops and THE infallible Pope himself. Not to mention the hundreds of millions of religious people all over the world.

Where was Richard Dawkins back in 1954!!!

It was in 1964 when I personally finally saw the... Dark. :-) Does that add up?

AhSureTisGrand · 12-06-2011 08:22PM

philologos wrote: »

I don't believe that it is impossible. For a long time I probably would have thought it was impossible but something changed and I think it can change for anyone.

Do you believe a leap of faith is necessary for Christianity? If I ever do such a thing I know I will have lost my grip on reality

MagicMarker · 12-06-2011 08:22PM

Asry wrote: »

that there is no God or no Heaven, no Son and no Hell. To me, your truths would be lies, whereas my truths are lies for you.

Who said I want to teach children there is no god or heaven? More to the point, why would you WANT to tell children there is a hell?

Asry wrote: »

But like, I really don't want to fight about it. I've been lambasted by athiests all my life, and have never once gotten up on my soapbox to feed people things that they don't want to hear. But I couldn't stand around and watch you rip someone else apart just because their ideology doesn't match with yours. It makes you no better than the fundamentalist Christians like the Westboro Baptists.

All of this, my beliefs, makes me really happy, and I'm keeping my personal beliefs to myself, here. It's you who's dragging all those misguided people in on this and tarring me with their brush. People f**k up in all walks of life - it's what people do, because we're all only human. If I want to believe in what you think are fairy tales, and I'm doing no harm to anyone, then why attack me?

How am I attacking you?

philologos · 12-06-2011 08:23PM

AhSureTisGrand wrote: »

Do you believe a leap of faith is necessary for Christianity? If I ever do such a thing I know I will have lost my grip on reality

I think Christianity is pretty much in keeping with common sense. What would take a leap would be me becoming an atheist.

Asry · 12-06-2011 08:24PM

MagicMarker wrote: »

I'm just telling you why some atheists are vocal with their opinions. It's not a case of ''why do you care if you don't believe in it'', it's a case of people like you teaching children lies, people like you standing in the way of equal rights.

You said yourself in that last comment ''so long as they don't try and make me believe it, too''... Well guess what? People like you DID try to make me believe it, and are currently doing the same to millions of other children across the world. That's why we care

That read like attacking to me...

Cú Giobach · 12-06-2011 08:26PM

philologos wrote: »

He respects your free will, and as such leaves the decision in your hands rather than forcing you to do so. After all forced love isn't even love.

Love me or burn in hell for eternity.
How the fu*k is this not forcing through coercion.

By this logic me forcing a woman to have sex with me under the threat of a terrible punishment isn't forcing, she has the free will not to comply.
Disgusting.

MagicMarker · 12-06-2011 08:26PM

Asry wrote: »

That read like attacking to me...

That's not an attack, it's the truth. Does the truth normally make you overly sensitive?

AhSureTisGrand · 12-06-2011 08:29PM

philologos wrote: »

I think Christianity is pretty much in keeping with common sense. What would take a leap would be me becoming an atheist.

So could someone accept Jesus without this "faith" thing, just as one accepts germ theory as most probably true?

Asry · 12-06-2011 08:30PM

MagicMarker wrote: »

That's not an attack, it's the truth. Does the truth normally make you overly sensitive?

Oh no, not at all

It just read in an insulting tone in my head is all. Sorry for accusing you of going on the offensive. Your lies, my truth, my lies, your truth. We'll get nowhere with this, I suppose.

MagicMarker · 12-06-2011 08:33PM

Asry wrote: »

Oh no, not at all It just read in an insulting tone in my head is all. Sorry for accusing you of going on the offensive. Your lies, my truth, my lies, your truth. We'll get nowhere with this, I suppose.

I'm curious, how can you believe in a god that's going to send you to hell?

philologos · 12-06-2011 08:42PM

AhSureTisGrand wrote: »

So could someone accept Jesus without this "faith" thing, just as one accepts germ theory as most probably true?

Faith is putting your trust in what is most reasonable. It isn't blind as far as I would see it. I have reasons why I believe that I've discussed at length on this forum and others before. Have I doubted? Yes. Was it a constructive process? Yes, in that it encouraged me to find out more about Christianity. Are my discussions with atheists constructive? Incredibly so the questions that they have asked me have encouraged me to look into things that perhaps I wouldn't have looked into before.

But, has it destroyed my faith? No.

Ellis Dee · 12-06-2011 08:43PM

philologos wrote: »

I think Christianity is pretty much in keeping with common sense. What would take a leap would be me becoming an atheist.

How can that be? For an atheist to become a Christian - or a Muslim or a Jew or a Zoroastrian or whatever - would require either a leap, a leap of faith, or else evidence that a supernatural being exists. Common sense tells one that something for which there is no evidence almost certainly does not exist, and that is a situation that will not change until evidence manifests itself. On the other hand, no evidence is needed to support a refusal to believe in something for which no evidence exists.

For example, if you tell me there are definitely leprechauns in the Wicklow mountains, and it seems that thousands of people believe the same, but yet no one has ever furnished any proof, direct or indirect, of their existence and I argue that leprechauns do not exist, which of us is on firmer ground in the common sense department?:rolleyes:

Asry · 12-06-2011 08:44PM

MagicMarker wrote: »

I'm curious, how can you believe in a god that's going to send you to hell?

I believe I was made by God, and belong to God, but also have free will to choose my actions. I'm LGBT, by the way, and choose not to act on my baser urges (when I have them under control that is....).

But, see, I love God. It's weird because it makes no sense, you know? I know all the arguments against it, and they're logical and rational but still don't explain away the ball of light in my chest that I have, for want of a better description.

So I try to do my best with what I have. It's not easy. It never has been. If I ever did try to talk to my boyfriend about joy and faith and love, it's only ever been because it seems like he's so unhappy sometimes, that maybe he's lacking something.

How can something that fills me with such happiness be wrong? I know that things have been done in the name of God, dreadful, awful things, like the Crusades and the Inquisition. But I still believe. And at the end of the day, really, it's me and God.

That probably doesn't explain anything, really, does it

I might not be the right person you need to ask. I can never really explain how I feel properly.

As for religions and things, though, they're something else entirely. I'm a member of the RCC at the moment, but my faith in it is being severely ******* right now, and I'm considering a formal renunciation, both as a self-respecting woman, and as a member of the LGBT community.

But that's Catholicism, not God.

Em. Sorry. Rambling, amn't I :rolleyes:

I guess, to maybe answer the question, if I go to Hell, I fully deserve it.

The end.

MagicMarker · 12-06-2011 08:53PM

Asry wrote: »

I believe I was made by God, and belong to God, but also have free will to choose my actions. I'm LGBT, by the way, and choose not to act on my baser urges (when I have them under control that is....).

But, see, I love God. It's weird because it makes no sense, you know? I know all the arguments against it, and they're logical and rational but still don't explain away the ball of light in my chest that I have, for want of a better description.

So I try to do my best with what I have. It's not easy. It never has been. If I ever did try to talk to my boyfriend about joy and faith and love, it's only ever been because it seems like he's so unhappy sometimes, that maybe he's lacking something.

How can something that fills me with such happiness be wrong? I know that things have been done in the name of God, dreadful, awful things, like the Crusades and the Inquisition. But I still believe. And at the end of the day, really, it's me and God.

That probably doesn't explain anything, really, does it I might not be the right person you need to ask. I can never really explain how I feel properly.

As for religions and things, though, they're something else entirely. I'm a member of the RCC at the moment, but my faith in it is being severely ******* right now, and I'm considering a formal renunciation, both as a self-respecting woman, and as a member of the LGBT community.

But that's Catholicism, not God.

Em. Sorry. Rambling, amn't I :rolleyes:

I guess, to maybe answer the question, if I go to Hell, I fully deserve it.

The end.

This is exactly the reason why childhood indoctrination is pure evil. Children have been spoon fed horseshít, just like you were, and now you genuinely believe that if you act on your natural urges that you will go to hell, but not only that, you believe that you deserve it. Can't you see how wrong that is? Can't you see how abusive that is?

By the way, you can never formally leave the RCC.

philologos · 12-06-2011 08:55PM

Ellis Dee - I don't compare the belief in God to fairies or leprachauns. In fact the comparison would never come to mind because a belief in God concerns the essential origins of the universe. The existence of fairies and leprachauns fades in comparison. It is conceivable and reasonable to think that there was an intelligent Creator behind the universe we currently inhabit.

What would be a leap to me would be the suggestion that the universe created itself.

Asry · 12-06-2011 08:56PM

MagicMarker wrote: »

This is exactly the reason why childhood indoctrination is pure evil. Children have been spoon fed horseshít, just like you were, and now you genuinely believe that if you act on your natural urges that you will go to hell, but not only that, you believe that you deserve it. Can't you see how wrong that is? Can't you see how abusive that is?

By the way, you can never formally leave the RCC.

That's just what my boyfriend said!

And yes, you can

You need to write a letter to your bishop asking to be struck off the baptismal record, and maybe just fudge up a reason like, I don't believe in Jesus and I'm Jewish now and bing bing you're a free man. Or girl, as it may be. Lots of people are praying that I come to my senses, LOL

[I'd like to see your face as you read that] And I can't imagine ever telling my mother that I left the Church.

Interesting, actually, just about what you said there - I went to a private Catholic school as a child and went to mass every single day...and mysteriously have no memory of it at all! Isn't that weird?

AhSureTisGrand · 12-06-2011 08:56PM

philologos wrote: »

Faith is putting your trust in what is most reasonable. It isn't blind as far as I would see it. I have reasons why I believe that I've discussed at length on this forum and others before. Have I doubted? Yes. Was it a constructive process? Yes, in that it encouraged me to find out more about Christianity. Are my discussions with atheists constructive? Incredibly so the questions that they have asked me have encouraged me to look into things that perhaps I wouldn't have looked into before.

But, has it destroyed my faith? No.

So what's your interpretation of "blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed"? Seems to me Jesus was praising blind faith

When atheists go too far

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