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Germaine Greer urged to apologise for "all soldiers rape" comment

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  • 11-06-2011 12:37pm
    #1
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,738 ✭✭✭✭


    Feminist writer Germaine Greer was under pressure to apologise today after she suggested that British troops might take part in rapes if they are sent into Libya.

    Patrick Mercer, Conservative MP for Newark and a former Army officer, accused Ms Greer of showing “extraordinary ignorance” in her remarks.

    Ms Greer said on BBC1’s 'Question Time' programme on Thursday that all soldiers, in certain circumstances, will rape.

    She was speaking during a discussion about allegations that Colonel Gaddafi had given his soldiers Viagra and ordered mass rapes as a weapon against rebels.

    She said: “Rape is always present where you have slaughter and you don’t have to have a government fiat (order) to do it. One of the interesting things you might ask about what happens if we send in ground troops, how will be sure they don’t do a bit of raping in their turn?”

    And she added: “All soldiers, in certain circumstances, will rape, regardless of whether they’re ours or theirs or whose.”

    Mr Mercer, who was an Army officer for 25 years, said today: “It shows extraordinary ignorance from someone who patently has no understanding of the conduct of disciplined forces, such as the British Army, Navy and Air Force.

    “For her to confuse the British forces with irregulars from other countries is not only ignorant and foolhardy from her point of view, it is also insulting.

    “She should stick to things she understands. I think an apology would be very much in order.”

    Colonel Stuart Tootal, who commanded 3 Para in Afghanistan, said: “The British Army is a modern, disciplined army, and it’s also a law abiding army as well.

    “The British Army is a force for good, and these remarks are ill founded and not well considered.

    “I don’t think there are many people, given the huge respect for the British Army and what they are doing, who will treat these remarks seriously – and rightly so.”

    Ms Greer was not available for comment today.

    Source

    As a guy I have to say that it's truly depressing that some people still hold the view that given the right circumstances, all men will rape.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



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    #2
    Hyperbullet
    Registered Users Posts: 2,084 ✭✭✭Hyperbullet


    Some fantastically ignorant comments, and too right she should apologise.


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    #3
    SugarHigh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,265 ✭✭✭SugarHigh


    Greer is just another one of these professional trolls the media loves because they always create a controversy.

    Having said that if you train people to kill certain people is it really going to be a surprise if they also think they can rape them? I think murdering someone is worse than raping them so it's a bit weird that if you shot someone it would be okay but not if you rape them.

    The aim of a lot of attacks is to break down the moral of the people like the intensive bombing of Berlin. If rape also achieves this I don't see how you can say the bombing is okay but not the rape?

    I don't think civilians can really judge soldiers by normal standards when it comes to morals because we are asking them to basically have no morals in certain situations but then act civilized in others. It's not hard to imagine this will be hard for them.


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    #4
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,738 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    SugarHigh wrote: »
    Greer is just another one of these professional trolls the media loves because they always create a controversy.

    Having said that if you train people to kill certain people is it really going to be a surprise if they also think they can rape them? I think murdering someone is worse than raping them so it's a bit weird that if you shot someone it would be okay but not if you rape them.
    Thats too simple a view to take with how soldiers are trained. A soldier is allowed to return fire if under attack for example. But no way would the army let them away with walking down a high street and randomly shooting civilians.
    The aim of a lot of attacks is to break down the moral of the people like the intensive bombing of Berlin. If rape also achieves this I don't see how you can say the bombing is okay but not the rape?
    Well the first is the distance the pilot is from those he is bombing is a very different state of mind to being in a room with a man/woman/child that the soldier will rape.

    It's like a person telling someone over the phone to stab someone vs. someone having to look someone in the eye and stab them.

    Plus the army has what's called rules of engagement and various military laws. I'd imagine if the British army found a soldier raping citizens of the country they were located in, that the army wouldn't let that continue.
    I don't think civilians can really judge soldiers by normal standards when it comes to morals because we are asking them to basically have no morals in certain situations but then act civilized in others. It's not hard to imagine this will be hard for them.

    But the army themselves said that Greers comment was contrary to the standards expected of their soldiers. It's not comparing civilian and military, it's the military saying that she is talking crap.

    There was even a movie based on this scenario, where a group of soldiers rape a girl while stationed in Vietnam. One soldier refuses to take part and subsequently reports the soldiers. It was based on actual events in Vietnam.

    That soldier should have raped the girl also based on Greers statement that "all soldiers rape".

    If you can read this, you're too close!



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    #5
    Otis Driftwood
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,925 ✭✭✭Otis Driftwood


    At this stage Greer just makes me lol.For the most part she is an embarrassment to women everywhere.


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    #6
    Galvasean
    Registered Users Posts: 30,746 ✭✭✭✭Galvasean


    People like Greer trivialize actual rape claims. This 'everyone is out to rape us!!!!' metality does no one any good.


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    #7
    SugarHigh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,265 ✭✭✭SugarHigh


    koth wrote: »
    Thats too simple a view to take with how soldiers are trained. A soldier is allowed to return fire if under attack for example. But no way would the army let them away with walking down a high street and randomly shooting civilians.
    NSFW
    http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/the-kill-team-20110327

    Click on the images to see more. They amputated body parts to keep as trophies.
    During the first five months of last year, a platoon of U.S. soldiers in Afghanistan went on a shooting spree, killing at least four unarmed civilians and mutilating several of the corpses. The “kill team” – members of the 5th Stryker Brigade stationed near Kandahar – took scores of photos chronicling their kills and their time in Afghanistan. Even before the war crimes became public, the Pentagon went to extraordinary measures to suppress the photos, launching a massive effort to find every file and pull the pictures out of circulation before they could touch off a scandal on the scale of Abu Ghraib.

    The images – more than 150 of which have been obtained by Rolling Stone – portray a front-line culture among U.S. troops in which killing innocent civilians is seen as a cause for celebration. “Most people within the unit disliked the Afghan people,” one of the soldiers told Army investigators. “Everyone would say they’re savages.”

    Many of the photos depict explicit images of violent deaths that have yet to be identified by the Pentagon. Among the soldiers, the collection was treated like a war memento. It was passed from man to man on thumb drives and hard drives, the gruesome images of corpses and war atrocities filed alongside clips of TV shows, UFC fights and films such as Iron Man 2. One soldier kept a complete set, which he made available to anyone who asked.
    On January 15th, 2010, U.S. soldiers in Bravo Company stationed near Kandahar executed an unarmed Afghan boy named Gul Mudin in the village of La Mohammad Kalay. Reports by soldiers at the scene indicate that Mudin was about 15 years old. According to sworn statements, two soldiers – Cpl. Jeremy Morlock and Pfc. Andrew Holmes – staged the killing to make it look like they had been under attack. Ordering the boy to stand still, they crouched behind a mud wall, tossed a grenade at him and opened fire from close range. This photograph shows Mudin’s body lying by the wall where he was killed.
    Well the first is the distance the pilot is from those he is bombing is a very different state of mind to being in a room with a man/woman/child that the soldier will rape.
    Killing people up close isn't rare. And I don't see how distance changes morals anyway.
    It's like a person telling someone over the phone to stab someone vs. someone having to look someone in the eye and stab them.
    The morals are the same. It's telling them stabbing is ok.
    Plus the army has what's called rules of engagement and various military laws. I'd imagine if the British army found a soldier raping citizens of the country they were located in, that the army wouldn't let that continue.
    Or maybe they'd cover it up like the American? What if the other soldiers don't report it because they also the same thing?
    But the army themselves said that Greers comment was contrary to the standards expected of their soldiers. It's not comparing civilian and military, it's the military saying that she is talking crap.
    THe American army also covered up the rape of it's own soldiers.
    http://www.pbs.org/now/shows/421/index.html
    There was even a movie based on this scenario, where a group of soldiers rape a girl while stationed in Vietnam. One soldier refuses to take part and subsequently reports the soldiers. It was based on actual events in Vietnam.
    I'm not sure what you think that proves. That soldier was outnumbered so do really think there will always be someone to report them? DO you rally think the army will always take action instead of covering up a scandal?
    That soldier should have raped the girl also based on Greers statement that "all soldiers rape".
    She never actually said all soldiers rape she really said all soldiers are capable of rape which isn't that outlandish when you consider all soldiers are capable of killing people.


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    #8
    SugarHigh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,265 ✭✭✭SugarHigh


    "Women serving in the US military are more likely to be raped by a fellow soldier than killed while serving in Iraq."
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9k_0b9hvIjc


    A woman was also raped by her physician while undergoing a gynecological exam.


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    #9
    SugarHigh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,265 ✭✭✭SugarHigh


    Galvasean wrote: »
    People like Greer trivialize actual rape claims. This 'everyone is out to rape us!!!!' metality does no one any good.
    I actually completely agree with that. Rape get's used by people like Greer as political currency.


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    #10
    Hyperbullet
    Registered Users Posts: 2,084 ✭✭✭Hyperbullet


    So Sugarhigh do you agree with Greer's views?

    *Edit, read your post there.


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    #11
    Finnbar01
    Registered Users Posts: 2,067 ✭✭✭Finnbar01


    I don't agree with one word that Greer has said but why the demand for an apology? Why is it that people feel that they should never be offended?


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    #12
    ToniTuddle
    Registered Users Posts: 8,964 ✭✭✭ToniTuddle


    http://www.pbs.org/now/shows/421/index.html

    What the hell??:confused:
    Where are these Pentagon reports that go into detail about it :confused:

    Rape has always been used during wars all down through the ages but normally it's done to whoever they are fighting ....not their own fellow soldiers. Maybe the odd incident but 1,400 in one year???


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    #13
    Galvasean
    Registered Users Posts: 30,746 ✭✭✭✭Galvasean


    Finnbar01 wrote: »
    I don't agree with one word that Greer has said but why the demand for an apology? Why is it that people feel that they should never be offended?

    I also think demanding an apology is pointless. Why have free speech at all if we demand apologies from people who say things we don't like?
    Personally i think publicly ridiculing people for saying stupid things is far more effective.


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    #14
    SugarHigh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,265 ✭✭✭SugarHigh


    Finnbar01 wrote: »
    I don't agree with one word that Greer has said but why the demand for an apology? Why is it that people feel that they should never be offended?
    I don't think it's about being offended. The military obviously has to protect their reputation, which is why these things get covered up.


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    #15
    SugarHigh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,265 ✭✭✭SugarHigh


    ToniTuddle wrote: »
    Where are these Pentagon reports that go into detail about it :confused:
    Would you really trust a report by someone with such vested interests?

    Why wasn't this a bigger deal?
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t7qTBkA8X_E


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    #16
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,738 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    SugarHigh wrote: »
    NSFW
    http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/the-kill-team-20110327

    Click on the images to see more. They amputated body parts to keep as trophies.
    But that's not the same as every soldier engaging in the actions.

    Killing people up close isn't rare. And I don't see how distance changes morals anyway.
    Never said it changes the morality, my point was that killing someone via remote bombing would be somewhat easier for a soldier compared to standing over a person and shooting them in the head.
    The morals are the same. It's telling them stabbing is ok.
    Agreed.
    Or maybe they'd cover it up like the American? What if the other soldiers don't report it because they also the same thing?

    THe American army also covered up the rape of it's own soldiers.
    http://www.pbs.org/now/shows/421/index.html

    I'm not sure what you think that proves. That soldier was outnumbered so do really think there will always be someone to report them? DO you rally think the army will always take action instead of covering up a scandal?
    I'm not saying that armies don't engage in cover ups. What I am saying is that there are plenty of soldiers, that won't rape regardless of the circumstances.
    She never actually said all soldiers rape she really said all soldiers are capable of rape which isn't that outlandish when you consider all soldiers are capable of killing people.

    She said: "All soldiers, in certain circumstances, will rape". That to me saying that all soldiers are rapists who haven't had the opportunity to rape yet.

    She isn't just saying they're capable, she's saying that they will rape given the right circumstances.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



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    #17
    SugarHigh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,265 ✭✭✭SugarHigh


    Galvasean wrote: »
    I also think demanding an apology is pointless. Why have free speech at all if we demand apologies from people who say things we don't like?
    Personally i think publicly ridiculing people for saying stupid things is far more effective.
    If someone says something damaging to you reputation you have to defend yourself or else it gets taken as fact.


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    #18
    FewFew
    Registered Users Posts: 12,746 ✭✭✭✭FewFew


    Oh wow... I need to wake-up, I jumped in here cause I thought it said "German Beer urged to apologise..." Hah!


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    #19
    Fbjm
    Registered Users Posts: 1,086 ✭✭✭Fbjm


    koth wrote: »
    the army has what's called rules of engagement

    I wouldn't mind having that boxset myself. :pac:


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    #20
    SugarHigh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,265 ✭✭✭SugarHigh


    koth wrote: »
    But that's not the same as every soldier engaging in the actions.
    Who said it was?
    She never said every soldier has raped someone. She simply said they are all capable of it.
    I'm not saying that armies don't engage in cover ups. What I am saying is that there are plenty of soldiers, that won't rape regardless of the circumstances.
    I'm not sure if that's true. If you're okay with killing someone how could you not be okay with raping someone?


    She said: "All soldiers, in certain circumstances, will rape". That to me saying that all soldiers are rapists who haven't had the opportunity to rape yet.
    It's really not a controversial statement. You could be trained to rape someone. Soldiers don't start out being able to kill someone they need to be trained to do it. The actual act of killing someone is a mental block that they overcome. Is it really a shocking thing to say that they could also overcome the same mental block that makes them rape someone?
    I believe you could make a rapist or a killer out of anyone.
    Rape is a horrific problem in Liberia and the statistics are shocking. A study was conducted by the World Health Organization in partnership with the Ministry of Gender and Development in 2005. 2,828 women and girls from around the country were interviewed about their experience during Liberia’s civil war.

    * 93% said they suffered physical or sexual violence during the war.

    * 73% were sexually violated or raped, many of them gang raped.
    Certain environmental factors promote rape. If you were raised to believe killing is okay you will also be fine with rape. I don't see why we have to believe westerners are different. We just exist under different circumstances but if those were change why do you think we wouldn't also have rape stats this high?


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    #21
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,738 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    SugarHigh wrote: »
    Who said it was?
    She never said every soldier has raped someone. She simply said they are all capable of it.
    I never said she said all soldiers had raped. I said that she put the idea out there that every soldier will rape if the right circumstances arise. Thats saying they're capable and will actually rape.
    I'm not sure if that's true. If you're okay with killing someone how could you not be okay with raping someone?
    Because some would take the view that you kill someone the victim is dead, but you rape someone and they will suffer mentally long after the rape.
    It's really not a controversial statement. You could be trained to rape someone. Soldiers don't start out being able to kill someone they need to be trained to do it. The actual act of killing someone is a mental block that they overcome. Is it really a shocking thing to say that they could also overcome the same mental block that makes them rape someone?
    I believe you could make a rapist or a killer out of anyone.

    But the military aren't training rapists, sure they train soldiers to kill but they don't have classes in raping.

    What about murderers in prison who will actually beat/kill sex offenders? Surely all murderers should be fine with rapists as it's just another violent crime to them?

    If you can read this, you're too close!



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    #22
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,738 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    SugarHigh wrote: »
    Certain environmental factors promote rape. If you were raised to believe killing is okay you will also be fine with rape. I don't see why we have to believe westerners are different. We just exist under different circumstances but if those were change why do you think we wouldn't also have rape stats this high?

    I don't disagree with the idea that if you raise kids with murder being acceptable that it's less likely they'll have a problem with rape. And I don't think that any nation is exempt from that.

    But the soldiers weren't raised to think murder and rape are ok. Most if not all of them would be raised to believe those acts are wrong. Then the military trains them to get past the block they have that stops them killing. That doesn't mean that the military has also removed the block for raping.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



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    #23
    Galvasean
    Registered Users Posts: 30,746 ✭✭✭✭Galvasean


    SugarHigh wrote: »
    If someone says something damaging to you reputation you have to defend yourself or else it gets taken as fact.

    The best way IMO, is to point out with facts and logic just how stupid their statements are.

    edit: Of course if anyone takes Greer's comments as fact it says a lot about their lack of intelligence more than anything.


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    #24
    djk1000
    Closed Accounts Posts: 899 ✭✭✭djk1000


    I think soldiers in wartime are much more likely to rape than others. It's a group made up largely of fit strong men with lots of testosterone, in a position of power, in a place where they can't really have a normal sexual relationship with a woman.

    You can't say that every soldier will do it, or is capable of it. But I'd agree that the chances are much much higher than usual.

    There are a lot of people in this world that follow the laws because of their fear of consequence, not because of a well developed sense of morals. Take away the fear of consequence and anything can happen.


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    #25
    SugarHigh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,265 ✭✭✭SugarHigh


    koth wrote: »
    I never said she said all soldiers had raped. I said that she put the idea out there that every soldier will rape if the right circumstances arise. Thats saying they're capable and will actually rape.
    It's not saying they will all rape because the circumstance might never present themselves. Everyone will rape/kill in the right circumstances.

    You could create a serial killer out of anyone if you wanted to.
    Because some would take the view that you kill someone the victim is dead, but you rape someone and they will suffer mentally long after the rape.
    Okay it's not universally agreed upon which is worse but personally I think murder is far worse.
    But the military aren't training rapists, sure they train soldiers to kill but they don't have classes in raping.
    I know they're not training rapists but do you honestly think they view the enemy as humans? I don't think they could kill them easily if they did. The fact they can also rape their own in such high numbers shows that they really don't have the same aversion to rape as civilians.
    What about murderers in prison who will actually beat/kill sex offenders? Surely all murderers should be fine with rapists as it's just another violent crime to them?
    I think that's just prison culture. I bet the people who kill sex offenders sometimes also rape other soldiers. It's not a moral stance. Did you watch that louis theroux Miami Mega prison Documentary? Most of the sh1t they do doesn't really make sense but it's just prison culture.


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    #26
    Galvasean
    Registered Users Posts: 30,746 ✭✭✭✭Galvasean


    SugarHigh wrote: »
    Everyone will rape/kill in the right circumstances.

    Preposterous!
    But out of curiosity, what how would you go about turning someone like, oh let's say me, into a rapist?


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    #27
    SugarHigh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,265 ✭✭✭SugarHigh


    koth wrote: »
    I don't disagree with the idea that if you raise kids with murder being acceptable that it's less likely they'll have a problem with rape. And I don't think that any nation is exempt from that.

    But the soldiers weren't raised to think murder and rape are ok. Most if not all of them would be raised to believe those acts are wrong. Then the military trains them to get past the block they have that stops them killing. That doesn't mean that the military has also removed the block for raping.

    The training removes the block of giving a sh1t what you do to another person usually the enemy but clearly they don't hold back with raping their own.


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    #28
    SugarHigh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,265 ✭✭✭SugarHigh


    Galvasean wrote: »
    Preposterous!
    But out of curiosity, what how would you go about turning someone like, oh let's say me, into a rapist?
    How are rape stats so high in a country like Liberia? Whats different about you?


    If you were raised in Liberia I really don't you would have the same views on rape. I never said I knew how to turn someone into a rapist but that doesn't mean it's not possible.

    I also don't know how to make someone a killer but the military does a good job of that.

    The truth is society does most of the work in making sure we don't kill or rape people. When a society breaks down these things become a lot easier.


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    #29
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,738 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    SugarHigh wrote: »
    It's not saying they will all rape because the circumstance might never present themselves. Everyone will rape/kill in the right circumstances.

    You could create a serial killer out of anyone if you wanted to.
    I guess I'm just naive then, in that I don't think everyone can be moulded into a killer.
    Okay it's not universally agreed upon which is worse but personally I think murder is far worse.
    I'd agree that it's not universally agreed upon but I'd think that death has less possibly of mental trauma when compared to a rape.
    I know they're not training rapists but do you honestly think they view the enemy as humans? I don't think they could kill them easily if they did. The fact they can also rape their own in such high numbers shows that they really don't have the same aversion to rape as civilians.
    I agree that it's higher to civilians but to for her to say all soldiers will rape is just crap IMHO. If someone is trained to be violent to another person, does that mean they're going to be sexually assaulting people too?

    I think that's just prison culture. I bet the people who kill sex offenders sometimes also rape other soldiers. It's not a moral stance. Did you watch that louis theroux Miami Mega prison Documentary? Most of the sh1t they do doesn't really make sense but it's just prison culture.
    No haven't seen it, but shall hunt it out :)

    If you can read this, you're too close!



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    #30
    SugarHigh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,265 ✭✭✭SugarHigh


    djk1000 wrote: »
    I think soldiers in wartime are much more likely to rape than others. It's a group made up largely of fit strong men with lots of testosterone, in a position of power, in a place where they can't really have a normal sexual relationship with a woman.

    You can't say that every soldier will do it, or is capable of it. But I'd agree that the chances are much much higher than usual.

    There are a lot of people in this world that follow the laws because of their fear of consequence, not because of a well developed sense of morals. Take away the fear of consequence and anything can happen.
    I don't think it is just a fear of consequences. If you told me to cut a live cats head off I genuinely don't think I could do it even if I was sure there was no consequences. However I bet the Army could break down that mental block.


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    #31
    Galvasean
    Registered Users Posts: 30,746 ✭✭✭✭Galvasean


    SugarHigh wrote: »
    How are rape stats so high in a country like Liberia?

    I don't know a whole lot about Liberian culture, but I'm willing to bet there is not much law enforcement there(?). I'm sure without adequate law enforcement all crimes would be much more prominent everywhere.
    SugarHigh wrote: »
    Whats different about you?

    I'm not a rapist. Believe it or not some people do have morals and behave themselves in a civilized matter out of a sense of morality rather than fear of punishment (I would suggest looking into the evolution of morality for further reading. there is some very interesting research out there).


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