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Healthcare: An Entitlement or a Privilege? - Discuss

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  • 11-06-2011 5:14am
    #1
    Killer Pigeon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,132 ✭✭✭


    Do believe that healthcare is a entitlement or a privilege?

    Should each person just buy health insurance or should the state cover the costs of healthcare?

    Edit (My opinions);

    Personally, I think that healthcare should be regarded as a privilege, not a right and that people should have the right to choose whether or not they want to buy health insurance.

    Honestly, I don't care if people are covered for their healthcare or not. My issue is with Fine Gael/ Labour's proposals to force people (tax payers) to pay for the produce of private industry (i.e., using tax payers' money to buy health insurance from private insurance firms).

    Having it in the law that you are required to buy produce from a private company is unfair and, to be quite frank, a dangerous precedent. For example, I am required to have insurance to drive a car but by law I am not required to drive a car; it is a privilege, not a right. If I do not want to pay for car insurance, I can travel using some other form of transport.

    The main dangers, I believe, with the government paying for healthcare insurance are as follows;

    We could see certain insurance companies gain a monopoly in the insurance sector if they decides to buy health insurance to cover citizens. If the government decides to buy health insurance off one company (such as VHI) then that company would effectively gain a monopoly over the health insurance sector and destroy competition. This company would be free to charge as much as they like for health insurance premiums and basically increase government spending. You could see a knock on effect with the way other companies charge for other forms of insurance too. In effect, the government will be just putting more money into the back pockets of crooks (for use of a better word) - similar circumstances helped get us into the economic mess we're in now.

    If there were several companies who offer health insurance in Ireland, then the cost of the premiums would be reduced by competition and make it affordable for people to buy it.

    This is why I believe healthcare should be regarded as a privilege, not a right (entitlement). If people can't afford health insurance then maybe there should be some sort of charity organisation to help people pay for it or just some sort of means tested government grant scheme to help people buy health insurance off the insurance company of their choice (grant receivers choice that it).

    Should Healthcare be an Entitlement or a Privilege? 135 votes

    Entitlement
    0% 0 votes
    Privilege
    100% 135 votes
    Tagged:


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  • Options
    #2
    mikemac
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,986 ✭✭✭✭mikemac


    How about adding your own opinion to get us started


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    #3
    Killer Pigeon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,132 ✭✭✭Killer Pigeon


    mikemac wrote: »
    How about adding your own opinion to get us started

    Why should I? I want to know what people think?


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    #4
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 17,378 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    mikemac, who cares... You're just following a tired trend of people attackin an OP for not posting an extra line with what they think.


    I think the state should be responsible.. It means the rich subsidize the poor's health through higher taxation. I wouldn't call it an entitlement though..
    I'm not entitled to healthcare just because I was born, but it's definitely one of the things a proper society should be built on.


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    #5
    Super-Rush
    Registered Users Posts: 19,473 ✭✭✭✭Super-Rush


    Killer Pigeon wrote: »
    Why should I? I want to know what people think?

    This is why you should.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=63152622&postcount=21


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    #6
    im invisible
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,372 ✭✭✭im invisible


    It should be a right, i would even go so far as to refuse to go private, even though i can afford it, to make my point that everyone should be entitled to healthcare in this country, i know there will always be a two tier system, you will never get rid of private health insurance, because no matter how good the public system is, there will be people who can afford to have better, but the state of public healthcare should be a whole lot higher than it is right now


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    #7
    Killer Pigeon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,132 ✭✭✭Killer Pigeon


    super-rush wrote: »
    This is why you should.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=63152622&postcount=21

    But how can one possibly give an opinion on a topic that's alien them? Seen as "Healthcare" should potentially be an important issue to people and After Hours is the largest and most active forum on this site it would be the best place to get a diverse opinion on the topic so I felt it fitting to post here. Anyway, the issue of giving an opinion in the OP is off-topic, I'll be moving it to the "How's our driving. Time for feedback" thread.


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    #8
    Jesus Wept
    Registered Users Posts: 25,243 ✭✭✭✭Jesus Wept


    /awaits Killer Pideon's moving of the thread. :p


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    #9
    Killer Pigeon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,132 ✭✭✭Killer Pigeon


    The-Rigger wrote: »
    /awaits Killer Pideon's moving of the thread. :p

    Did I say I was going to be moving the thread? (I think that I would understand how things work after a year on boards). I'll be "moving" (for use of a better work) the discussion in relation to the charter super-rush alluded to to "Hows our driving. Time for feedback" thread. Jeez.


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    #10
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users Posts: 33,172 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    Entitlement. What are you going to do with generally sick people who can't afford health insurance - watch them die?

    I also think it should be one-tier, but better quality. Everyone gets the same treatment. Why should you get better simply because you earn more money? Does this make you a better person, somehow?

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



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    #11
    Sandwlch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,066 ✭✭✭Sandwlch


    Its a privilege.
    You are entitled to nothing except the opportunity to earn a privilege. You are not entitled to someone else (though they may voluntarily choose to to) giving you something.


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    #12
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users Posts: 33,172 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    Sandwlch wrote: »
    Its a privilege.
    You are entitled to nothing except the opportunity to earn a privilege. You are not entitled to someone else (though they may voluntarily choose to to) giving you something.

    If all men were born equal, I may agree with you. But that not being the case, I don't.

    How do you feel about mentally handicapped children? Same? **** 'em if they can't earn a priviledge or contribute to society? Godwin's Law is prepared and ready for launching...

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



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    #13
    stovelid
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,252 ✭✭✭✭stovelid


    im invisible wrote: »
    It should be a right, i would even go so far as to refuse to go private, even though i can afford it,

    Sure you would.


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    #14
    themadchef
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,813 ✭✭✭themadchef


    The smell of cranky in here! :p


    Look, we're going to complain about whatever system is in place. Surely we can copy another small country that actually has one that works.


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    #15
    Gigabytes
    Registered Users Posts: 72 ✭✭Gigabytes


    Ikky Poo2 wrote: »
    Entitlement. What are you going to do with generally sick people who can't afford health insurance - watch them die?

    I also think it should be one-tier, but better quality. Everyone gets the same treatment. Why should you get better simply because you earn more money? Does this make you a better person, somehow?

    One tier I agree, when the rich and elite have to use the same healthcare hospitals and facilities as the poorest in society, then we will see a better healthcare system for the latter


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    #16
    Duffy the Vampire Slayer
    Registered Users Posts: 5,378 ✭✭✭Duffy the Vampire Slayer


    I believe its one of the most basic human rights.


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    #17
    brokenhinge
    Registered Users Posts: 152 ✭✭brokenhinge


    I think basic healthcare should be an undeniable right, but perhaps non-basic (cosmetic surgery, private rooms etc.. springing to mind) is a privilege.


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    #18
    Son Of A Vidic
    Registered Users Posts: 32,370 ✭✭✭✭Son Of A Vidic


    Killer Pigeon wrote: »
    Anyway, the issue of giving an opinion in the OP is off-topic, I'll be moving it to the "How's our driving. Time for feedback" thread.

    Judging by that post, I think it's obvious you're still on your provisional license.


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    #19
    Sandwlch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,066 ✭✭✭Sandwlch


    Ikky Poo2 wrote: »
    How do you feel about mentally handicapped children? Same?QUOTE]

    Yes, the same. But the humanity in most of us means we choose to help them and have a society that does provide healthcare to those who cannot do so for themselves - even though they have no entitlement to it.
    Ikky Poo2 wrote: »
    If all men were born equal, I may agree with you. But that not being the case, I don't.QUOTE]
    There is no entitlement to be born equal, nor to to then have that inequality equalised.


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    #20
    Dudess
    Closed Accounts Posts: 37,214 ✭✭✭✭Dudess


    A privilege me arse. Some kid with leukaemia and healthcare is a privilege?

    Problem though is some conditions are self inflicted - that's where things get a bit ambiguous.


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    #21
    flutterflye
    Registered Users Posts: 3,538 ✭✭✭flutterflye


    Entitlement.

    Money shouldn't come between health and illness/death.

    Out of all the things that the taxpayers money goes on, health should be at or near the top of the priority list.


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    #22
    Mike 1972
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,018 ✭✭✭Mike 1972


    brokenhinge wrote: »
    I think basic healthcare should be an undeniable right, but perhaps non-basic (cosmetic surgery, private rooms etc.. springing to mind) is a privilege.

    Dunno one could make a case for cosmetic surgery for burns victims or those born with a severe deformity or disfigurement.

    On the other hand Im not convinced that fertility treatments should be the near automatic entitlement it seems to be (In Britain anyway)


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    #23
    drkpower
    Registered Users Posts: 5,475 ✭✭✭drkpower


    Mike 1972 wrote: »
    On the other hand Im not convinced that fertility treatments should be the near automatic entitlement it seems to be (In Britain anyway)
    On what basis might one argue that healthcare is a basic right yet fertility treatment is not?


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    #24
    Kevin Duffy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,439 ✭✭✭Kevin Duffy


    "Healthcare" is too broad a term for a simple yes or no, it goes all the way from CPR to psychology for problems that would seem trivial to a lot of us, through cosmetic surgery for disfigurements or the same cosmetic surgery for enhancements, plus many other treatments, some of it requiring value judgments or medical judgments on likely effectiveness, choices about organ receipt etc.


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    #25
    Mike 1972
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,018 ✭✭✭Mike 1972


    drkpower wrote: »
    On what basis might one argue that healthcare is a basic right yet fertility treatment is not?

    Infertility has never actually killed anyone to the best of my knowledge.


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    #26
    drkpower
    Registered Users Posts: 5,475 ✭✭✭drkpower


    Mike 1972 wrote: »
    Infertility has never actually killed anyone to the best of my knowledge.
    Are you suggesting therefore, that the only form of healthcare that should be an entitlement, is healthcare that prevents death?


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    #27
    Mike 1972
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,018 ✭✭✭Mike 1972


    ^ No


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    #28
    drkpower
    Registered Users Posts: 5,475 ✭✭✭drkpower


    Mike 1972 wrote: »
    ^ No
    Can you clarify what you mean then?

    Your reasoning for fertility treatment not being an entitlement is because 'Infertility has never actually killed anyone'. Do you use a different rationale for other treatments? And if so, why?


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    #29
    candy-gal1
    Registered Users Posts: 6,568 ✭✭✭candy-gal1


    With all the money that the state has made us owe then yes i think healthcare should be a right, esp going by the seriousness/how important the health situation/illness is


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    #30
    mikom
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,391 ✭✭✭✭mikom


    Killer Pigeon wrote: »
    Do believe that healthcare is a entitlement or a privilege?

    Should each person just buy health insurance or should the state cover the costs of healthcare?

    Question posing: An Entitlement or a Privilege? - Discuss


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    #31
    El_Dangeroso
    Users Awaiting Email Confirmation Posts: 5,620 ✭✭✭El_Dangeroso


    The problem with universal healthcare is that it stifles innovation and actually makes things cost more in the long run. Everyone looks to America as some sort of example of capitalist healthcare but it's no such thing, the insurance industry is a cartel which fixes prices and generally makes health insurance more expensive.

    99% of the innovation in medicine comes from the US market though and that's no coincidence, it's also the most lucrative market.

    I think a good example of true competition in this area is something like laser eye surgery. No insurance company would pay for it, so since it was coming out of the consumer's own pocket there was true competition. What started out costing over €7,000 now can cost under a €1,000, very few examples like that when the state or an insurance company is paying.

    As much as I think it is the duty of any civilised society to protect its most vunerable (and that documentary Sicko makes for really uncomfortable watching), do I really want to be paying the ever increasing healthcare costs of people who eat crap, smoke and drink heavily?


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