Healthcare: An Entitlement or a Privilege? - Discuss

Killer Pigeon

Do believe that healthcare is a entitlement or a privilege?

Should each person just buy health insurance or should the state cover the costs of healthcare?

Edit (My opinions);

Personally, I think that healthcare should be regarded as a privilege, not a right and that people should have the right to choose whether or not they want to buy health insurance.

Honestly, I don't care if people are covered for their healthcare or not. My issue is with Fine Gael/ Labour's proposals to force people (tax payers) to pay for the produce of private industry (i.e., using tax payers' money to buy health insurance from private insurance firms).

Having it in the law that you are required to buy produce from a private company is unfair and, to be quite frank, a dangerous precedent. For example, I am required to have insurance to drive a car but by law I am not required to drive a car; it is a privilege, not a right. If I do not want to pay for car insurance, I can travel using some other form of transport.

The main dangers, I believe, with the government paying for healthcare insurance are as follows;

We could see certain insurance companies gain a monopoly in the insurance sector if they decides to buy health insurance to cover citizens. If the government decides to buy health insurance off one company (such as VHI) then that company would effectively gain a monopoly over the health insurance sector and destroy competition. This company would be free to charge as much as they like for health insurance premiums and basically increase government spending. You could see a knock on effect with the way other companies charge for other forms of insurance too. In effect, the government will be just putting more money into the back pockets of crooks (for use of a better word) - similar circumstances helped get us into the economic mess we're in now.

If there were several companies who offer health insurance in Ireland, then the cost of the premiums would be reduced by competition and make it affordable for people to buy it.

This is why I believe healthcare should be regarded as a privilege, not a right (entitlement). If people can't afford health insurance then maybe there should be some sort of charity organisation to help people pay for it or just some sort of means tested government grant scheme to help people buy health insurance off the insurance company of their choice (grant receivers choice that it).

mikemac

How about adding your own opinion to get us started

Killer Pigeon

mikemac wrote: »

How about adding your own opinion to get us started

Why should I? I want to know what people think?

mikemac, who cares... You're just following a tired trend of people attackin an OP for not posting an extra line with what they think.


I think the state should be responsible.. It means the rich subsidize the poor's health through higher taxation. I wouldn't call it an entitlement though..
I'm not entitled to healthcare just because I was born, but it's definitely one of the things a proper society should be built on.

Super-Rush

Killer Pigeon wrote: »

Why should I? I want to know what people think?

This is why you should.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=63152622&postcount=21

im invisible

It should be a right, i would even go so far as to refuse to go private, even though i can afford it, to make my point that everyone should be entitled to healthcare in this country, i know there will always be a two tier system, you will never get rid of private health insurance, because no matter how good the public system is, there will be people who can afford to have better, but the state of public healthcare should be a whole lot higher than it is right now

Killer Pigeon

super-rush wrote: »

This is why you should.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=63152622&postcount=21

But how can one possibly give an opinion on a topic that's alien them? Seen as "Healthcare" should potentially be an important issue to people and After Hours is the largest and most active forum on this site it would be the best place to get a diverse opinion on the topic so I felt it fitting to post here. Anyway, the issue of giving an opinion in the OP is off-topic, I'll be moving it to the "How's our driving. Time for feedback" thread.

Jesus Wept

/awaits Killer Pideon's moving of the thread.

Killer Pigeon

The-Rigger wrote: »

/awaits Killer Pideon's moving of the thread.

Did I say I was going to be moving the thread? (I think that I would understand how things work after a year on boards). I'll be "moving" (for use of a better work) the discussion in relation to the charter super-rush alluded to to "Hows our driving. Time for feedback" thread. Jeez.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Entitlement. What are you going to do with generally sick people who can't afford health insurance - watch them die?

I also think it should be one-tier, but better quality. Everyone gets the same treatment. Why should you get better simply because you earn more money? Does this make you a better person, somehow?

Sandwlch

Its a privilege.
You are entitled to nothing except the opportunity to earn a privilege. You are not entitled to someone else (though they may voluntarily choose to to) giving you something.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Sandwlch wrote: »

Its a privilege.
You are entitled to nothing except the opportunity to earn a privilege. You are not entitled to someone else (though they may voluntarily choose to to) giving you something.

If all men were born equal, I may agree with you. But that not being the case, I don't.

How do you feel about mentally handicapped children? Same? **** 'em if they can't earn a priviledge or contribute to society? Godwin's Law is prepared and ready for launching...

stovelid

im invisible wrote: »

It should be a right, i would even go so far as to refuse to go private, even though i can afford it,

Sure you would.

themadchef

The smell of cranky in here!


Look, we're going to complain about whatever system is in place. Surely we can copy another small country that actually has one that works.

Gigabytes

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Entitlement. What are you going to do with generally sick people who can't afford health insurance - watch them die?

I also think it should be one-tier, but better quality. Everyone gets the same treatment. Why should you get better simply because you earn more money? Does this make you a better person, somehow?

One tier I agree, when the rich and elite have to use the same healthcare hospitals and facilities as the poorest in society, then we will see a better healthcare system for the latter

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

I believe its one of the most basic human rights.

brokenhinge

I think basic healthcare should be an undeniable right, but perhaps non-basic (cosmetic surgery, private rooms etc.. springing to mind) is a privilege.

Son Of A Vidic

Killer Pigeon wrote: »

Anyway, the issue of giving an opinion in the OP is off-topic, I'll be moving it to the "How's our driving. Time for feedback" thread.

Judging by that post, I think it's obvious you're still on your provisional license.

Sandwlch

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

How do you feel about mentally handicapped children? Same?QUOTE]

Yes, the same. But the humanity in most of us means we choose to help them and have a society that does provide healthcare to those who cannot do so for themselves - even though they have no entitlement to it.

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

If all men were born equal, I may agree with you. But that not being the case, I don't.QUOTE]
There is no entitlement to be born equal, nor to to then have that inequality equalised.

Dudess

A privilege me arse. Some kid with leukaemia and healthcare is a privilege?

Problem though is some conditions are self inflicted - that's where things get a bit ambiguous.

flutterflye

Entitlement.

Money shouldn't come between health and illness/death.

Out of all the things that the taxpayers money goes on, health should be at or near the top of the priority list.

Mike 1972

brokenhinge wrote: »

I think basic healthcare should be an undeniable right, but perhaps non-basic (cosmetic surgery, private rooms etc.. springing to mind) is a privilege.

Dunno one could make a case for cosmetic surgery for burns victims or those born with a severe deformity or disfigurement.

On the other hand Im not convinced that fertility treatments should be the near automatic entitlement it seems to be (In Britain anyway)

drkpower

Mike 1972 wrote: »

On the other hand Im not convinced that fertility treatments should be the near automatic entitlement it seems to be (In Britain anyway)

On what basis might one argue that healthcare is a basic right yet fertility treatment is not?

Kevin Duffy

"Healthcare" is too broad a term for a simple yes or no, it goes all the way from CPR to psychology for problems that would seem trivial to a lot of us, through cosmetic surgery for disfigurements or the same cosmetic surgery for enhancements, plus many other treatments, some of it requiring value judgments or medical judgments on likely effectiveness, choices about organ receipt etc.

Mike 1972

drkpower wrote: »

On what basis might one argue that healthcare is a basic right yet fertility treatment is not?

Infertility has never actually killed anyone to the best of my knowledge.

drkpower

Mike 1972 wrote: »

Infertility has never actually killed anyone to the best of my knowledge.

Are you suggesting therefore, that the only form of healthcare that should be an entitlement, is healthcare that prevents death?

Mike 1972

^ No

drkpower

Mike 1972 wrote: »

^ No

Can you clarify what you mean then?

Your reasoning for fertility treatment not being an entitlement is because 'Infertility has never actually killed anyone'. Do you use a different rationale for other treatments? And if so, why?

candy-gal1

With all the money that the state has made us owe then yes i think healthcare should be a right, esp going by the seriousness/how important the health situation/illness is

mikom

Killer Pigeon wrote: »

Do believe that healthcare is a entitlement or a privilege?

Should each person just buy health insurance or should the state cover the costs of healthcare?

Question posing: An Entitlement or a Privilege? - Discuss

El_Dangeroso

The problem with universal healthcare is that it stifles innovation and actually makes things cost more in the long run. Everyone looks to America as some sort of example of capitalist healthcare but it's no such thing, the insurance industry is a cartel which fixes prices and generally makes health insurance more expensive.

99% of the innovation in medicine comes from the US market though and that's no coincidence, it's also the most lucrative market.

I think a good example of true competition in this area is something like laser eye surgery. No insurance company would pay for it, so since it was coming out of the consumer's own pocket there was true competition. What started out costing over €7,000 now can cost under a €1,000, very few examples like that when the state or an insurance company is paying.

As much as I think it is the duty of any civilised society to protect its most vunerable (and that documentary Sicko makes for really uncomfortable watching), do I really want to be paying the ever increasing healthcare costs of people who eat crap, smoke and drink heavily?

Mike 1972

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

I think a good example of true competition in this area is something like laser eye surgery. No insurance company would pay for it, so since it was coming out of the consumer's own pocket there was true competition.?

Could be totally wrong about this but I was always under the impression that Laser eye surgery was developed in the USSR

drkpower wrote: »

Can you clarify what you mean then?

I maintain that fertility treatment should not be funded out of the healthcare budget to the detriment of other healthcare services (or public services in general) as would be the case in just about any country with a national budget of less than infinity.

drkpower

Mike 1972 wrote: »

I maintain that fertility treatment should not be funded out of the healthcare budget to the detriment of other healthcare services (or public services in general) as would be the case in just about any country with a national budget of less than infinity.

I know you maintain that position; but I was asking what the basis for that position, beyond the mere fact that you believe it.

Chinasea

If you are low paid worker it is neither an entitlement nor a privilege - on a salary of €17-€30 per year you really need to scrimp the outrageous fee of €60.00 to visit your GP. On the other hand, if you don't work then you get a medical card so it is free and all your medicines to boot (.50c). Seems a tad unfair to me.

Mike 1972

drkpower wrote: »

but I was asking what the basis for that position

There's a bit of a clue in the last line or two of my previous post if you care to read it again.

drkpower

Mike 1972 wrote: »

There's a bit of a clue in the last line or two of my previous post if you care to read it again.

The reason you give seems to be limited to the fact that you believe that making fertility treatment an entitlement would be to the detriment of other healthcare services.

However, what I have been asking is why you consider 'other healthcare services' to be an entitlement/free and why fertility treatment is not an entitlement/free. Initially you appeared to suggest that the life-saving nature of treatment was what made it an entitlement, but you seem to have resiled from that position.

Mike 1972

drkpower wrote: »

However, what I have been asking is why you consider 'other healthcare services' to be an entitlement/free and why fertility treatment is not an entitlement/free. .

Because I view the delivery of healthcare services (lifesaving or otherwise) to those who need them to be a greater priority than enabling people to procreate.

robinph

Chinasea wrote: »

If you are low paid worker it is neither an entitlement nor a privilege - on a salary of €17-€30 per year you really need to scrimp the outrageous fee of €60.00 to visit your GP. On the other hand, if you don't work then you get a medical card so it is free and all your medicines to boot (.50c). Seems a tad unfair to me.

Healthcare should be free at the point of service. You should not have to hand over cash to a GP before they will diagnose what is wrong with you. Tax something else to pay for it if needed, but there should not be anything that discourages people from getting seen early by a GP to diagnose problems.

Get diagnosed sooner and it will save money. Charge people €60 to see a GP and they will put off seeing them until the situation gets worse and then end up costing more to fix what ever the issue was in the first place.

drkpower

Mike 1972 wrote: »

Because I view the delivery of healthcare services (lifesaving or otherwise) to those who need them to be a greater priority than enabling people to procreate.

I know that; but why?!?! That is the question I have been asking.

Does your position apply to all healthcare services or only specific healthcare services?
And what are the factors that lead you to believe these services should be an entitlement/free and do those factors apply to infertility treatment.

Chinasea

robinph wrote: »

Healthcare should be free at the point of service. You should not have to hand over cash to a GP before they will diagnose what is wrong with you. Tax something else to pay for it if needed, but there should not be anything that discourages people from getting seen early by a GP to diagnose problems.

Get diagnosed sooner and it will save money. Charge people €60 to see a GP and they will put off seeing them until the situation gets worse and then end up costing more to fix what ever the issue was in the first place.

Totally agree, but the GP's have us over a barrel - we still seem to treat them like some sort of super elite despite this fact. ( *not wishing to take away from the obvious good they do) but none the less this rip off two minutes visit of €60 plus is a flippin outrage and immoral in my book – as for the demi gods with the dickie bow the consultants......

If a Human Right is an entitlement then yeah, entitlement.

I'd actually go to war for this.

El_Dangeroso

Mike 1972 wrote: »

Could be totally wrong about this but I was always under the impression that Laser eye surgery was developed in the USSR

Yes you're right, but that still doesn't mean that most recent medical innovation hasn't come out of the US.

And LASIK got cheaper in the US first. I don't think a lot of people in the USSR ever benefited from the procedure.

im invisible

stovelid wrote: »

Sure you would.

i would, and i do

*edit, ill just throw this in here, save making a new post

Killer Pigeon wrote: »

Anyway, the issue of giving an opinion in the OP is off-topic, I'll be moving it to the "How's our driving. Time for feedback" thread.

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

Judging by that post, I think it's obvious you're still on your provisional license.

he didnt say the OP is off topic, he said

the issue of giving an opinion in the OP is off-topic

and anyway, i've seen instances of the poster of a thread post a story, give an opinion, ask for comments, and later in the thread be over-ruled when he says some comments are good, the kind of thing he was looking for, and a mod rules them as off-topic,

ive seen it happen...

caroline1111

If its free for anyone it should be free for ALL, not the current ridiculous situation where someone on the dole gets as many GP visits and free medication as they want whereas eg their next-door neighbour works hard and has to skimp about to fork up the money to pay for their own care and even puts it off. Its kinda sick when you think about it, working taxpayers are funding healthcare for people on the dole but then mightn't be able to afford to pay for themselves. Needs to be sorted out.

Mike 1972

drkpower wrote: »

Does your position apply to all healthcare services or only specific healthcare services?.

Most Healthcare services

drkpower wrote: »

And what are the factors that lead you to believe these services should be an entitlement/free and do those factors apply to infertility treatment.

In the overall scheme of things I would see healthcare as (largely) an entitlement but procreation as more of a privilege. Therefore in determining budgets the former should always take priority over the latter.

drkpower

Mike 1972 wrote: »

Most Healthcare services.

That is so broad as to be essentially useless. Can you be more specific.

Mike 1972 wrote: »

In the overall scheme of things I would see healthcare as (largely) an entitlement but procreation as more of a privilege. Therefore in determining budgets the former should always take priority over the latter.

Sure, but once again, you havent said why healthcare treatment is (largely) an entitlement but procreation as more of a privilege!

robinph

^ I guess procreation is a requirement for governments though as they need to ensure their future supply of taxpayers. Well, not the government, but the civil service who actually run a country anyway and don't get changed every couple of years.

Kevin Duffy

Mike 1972 wrote: »

Most Healthcare services



In the overall scheme of things I would see healthcare as (largely) an entitlement but procreation as more of a privilege. Therefore in determining budgets the former should always take priority over the latter.

And how would one qualify for the "privilege" of procreation, or by what criteria would you restrict it?

Chuck Stone

entitlement

1. The fact of having a right to something.
2. The amount to which a person has a right.

privilege

Verb: Grant a privilege or privileges to: "English inheritance law privileged the eldest son".
Noun: A special right, advantage, or immunity granted or available only to one person or group of people
_______________________________________

They kinda mean the same thing OP.

I think you might mean an entitlemet or a luxury?

Chuck Stone

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

How do you feel about mentally handicapped children? Same? **** 'em if they can't earn a priviledge or contribute to society?

Who do you think should pay?

Mike 1972

Kevin Duffy wrote: »

And how would one qualify for the "privilege" of procreation, or by what criteria would you restrict it?

I didnt say I would restrict people from obtaining fertility treatment privately if they could afford to pay.

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Who do you think should pay?

The Exchequer of any country purporting to be civilised