What to tell a child who asks? Afterlife etc.

Robert ninja · 06-06-2011 03:39AM

jank wrote: »

Yea the universe sucks! Boo to the universe!
Glass half empty?

The universe is amazing, but not for any of the reasons any religion has said it for. None of it is designed for our comfort or happiness. None of it has any calling on us or mission. It's huge, deadly, unsympathetic... and yet beautiful. And I'm gonna try have fun in it... not fill the second half of that glass with the piss we call religion.

jank · 06-06-2011 03:58AM

Robert ninja wrote: »

The universe is amazing, but not for any of the reasons any religion has said it for. None of it is designed for our comfort or happiness. None of it has any calling on us or mission. It's huge, deadly, unsympathetic... and yet beautiful. And I'm gonna try have fun in it... not fill the second half of that glass with the piss we call religion.

So why the anger directed at me when we both agree that the Universe is amazing?

dead one · 06-06-2011 04:57AM

jank wrote: »

So why the anger directed at me ?

Everybody's scared for their a$$....

AhSureTisGrand · 06-06-2011 07:16AM

jank wrote: »

I know what the idea means but cannot reconcile it with myself. As evidenced here it is a rather hollow, benign idea that doesn't do justice to the wonderful universe and world we inhabit. At first it seems like a revoultionary idea but when you open the door there is nothing behind it. That is the point, I get that now but not for me, thanks!

I'm sorry that atheism does not try to provide answers (or substitutes for answers) to every question ever asked. Fortunately it's not a religion and has no need to do so

Dave! · 06-06-2011 10:31AM

jank wrote: »

I know what the idea means but cannot reconcile it with myself. As evidenced here it is a rather hollow, benign idea that doesn't do justice to the wonderful universe and world we inhabit. At first it seems like a revoultionary idea but when you open the door there is nothing behind it. That is the point, I get that now but not for me, thanks!

In essence here you appear to be declining to call yourself an atheist for emotional reasons...

Personally I'd rather just know the universe as it really is, and deal with the ramifications of that in an honest and open manner.

jank · 06-06-2011 01:26PM

Good man, we are getting someone. I suppose most humans have a little tiny bit of atheism in them but hence why its called faith. Is anyone 100% sure, some are but most are not. Over the course of my life I may slide towards atheism (i doubt that) now though and I always believed that there was something else out there. Doesn't mean I believe in a god with a beard who is a man and all that stuff, just that there is something else there and I feel that deeply. Hence why I also at this moment don't get atheism. Like telling a man you cannot love your baby daughter/son {queue remarks that I am an idiot.}

Dades · 06-06-2011 01:34PM

I guess your some sort of agnostic deist then. Welcome.

Glad we're all getting along better.

jank · 06-06-2011 01:45PM

This forum is like armadillos

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bqeGxMgVOHI

Jamie Starr · 06-06-2011 01:53PM

I think it's important just to tell children to live their lives as happily as they can, and not focus too much on what happens afterwards. We know about as much of the after-life as the child who's asking anyway.

Mainly wanted to post as I thought it was a good opportunity for my username.

the culture of deference · 06-06-2011 03:23PM

jank wrote: »

People are also free to send their children to religious schools of their choosing. We live in a free country.

I disagree with this. There should be no religious schools. School should be a place where you learn how to think critically as an individual. Myths should be learned as mythology.

jank wrote: »

Faith or lack of is a private matter for the person....

I agree, but not for brainwashing children, you can make your decision as an adult, there should be no religious instruction until you are an adult, otherwise how is it a choice.

jank wrote: »

the wonderful universe and world we inhabit.

I agree, but we don't need to continue to make up or believe in fairytales that were created, for our primitive brains to comprehend our surroundings. We don't sacrifice people anymore.

the culture of deference · 06-06-2011 03:25PM

jank wrote: »

Your version or idea of God may be very different to my idea of it.

What is your version of god then.

A. The one who started all this 15 billion years ago

OR

B. The one in the bible that we made in our image

Mark Hamill · 06-06-2011 03:50PM

jank wrote: »

I know what the idea means but cannot reconcile it with myself. As evidenced here it is a rather hollow, benign idea that doesn't do justice to the wonderful universe and world we inhabit.

Does not collecting stamps do justice to the wonderful universe and world we inhabit? Atheism only concerns belief in relation to a deity. If you are interested in the universe, then read some science.

jank wrote: »

At first it seems like a revoultionary idea but when you open the door there is nothing behind it. That is the point, I get that now but not for me, thanks!

There is only nothing behind it if you dont examine why people are atheists. Like all beliefs, it is only as meaningful as the thought that actually goes into it.

RussellTuring · 06-06-2011 05:31PM

jank wrote: »

Good man, we are getting someone. I suppose most humans have a little tiny bit of atheism in them but hence why its called faith.

In the same way they have a bit of "not speaking English" in them.

Is anyone 100% sure, some are but most are not. Over the course of my life I may slide towards atheism (i doubt that) now though and I always believed that there was something else out there. Doesn't mean I believe in a god with a beard who is a man and all that stuff, just that there is something else there and I feel that deeply. Hence why I also at this moment don't get atheism. Like telling a man you cannot love your baby daughter/son {queue remarks that I am an idiot.}

Something else in contrast to what exactly? If you say "I don't know" or "the universe", what's your reason?

Mark Hamill · 06-06-2011 07:14PM

jank wrote: »

Hence why I also at this moment don't get atheism. Like telling a man you cannot love your baby daughter/son {queue remarks that I am an idiot.}

In what way is atheism like telling a man he cant love his child? (or am I misreading you here?)

jank · 07-06-2011 03:38AM

the culture of deference wrote: »

What is your version of god then.

A. The one who started all this 15 billion years ago

OR

B. The one in the bible that we made in our image

Most of my posts would direct that answer to A.

jank · 07-06-2011 03:40AM

the culture of deference wrote: »

I disagree with this. There should be no religious schools. School should be a place where you learn how to think critically as an individual. Myths should be learned as mythology.

.

So you do not believe in individual freedoms?

Dades · 07-06-2011 10:26AM

jank wrote: »

So you do not believe in individual freedoms?

Individuals should also include children. What's free about teaching them (at their most impressionable age) something is unquestionably true for 12 years and then releasing them to "make their own mind up"?

jank · 07-06-2011 12:11PM

Dades wrote: »

Individuals should also include children. What's free about teaching them (at their most impressionable age) something is unquestionably true for 12 years and then releasing them to "make their own mind up"?

Well yes but children by their own definition cannot look after themselves, therefore giving the child its own liberties in things such as this is a little short sighted when they cant even feed themselves, cloth themselves, vote, etc.

It is up to the parents to provide a moral and spiritual guidance in these matters. Therefore in a free country parents MUST have the choice to send their children to a secular school if they so wish or a religious school.

To say that NOBODY has the right to send their children to a religious school is basically forcing your opinion on others who disagree with you, basically curtailing their rights. Something I thought atheists would be all for?

pH · 07-06-2011 12:22PM

jank wrote: »

It is up to the parents to provide a moral and spiritual guidance in these matters. Therefore in a free country parents MUST have the choice to send their children to a secular school if they so wish or a religious school.

I have no idea why you think that. We don't need religious fire-brigades, or religious swimming pools, nor do we need religious universities or religious hospitals. You don't have the right to be dealt with by a Garda of a particular religion, nor is their a religious/secular choice in the court system. If parents want to indoctrinate their kids with their particular religion then they should be free to do so, but it's not something that the state education system needs to be involved in.

CerebralCortex · 07-06-2011 12:46PM

jank wrote: »

Well yes but children by their own definition cannot look after themselves, therefore giving the child its own liberties in things such as this is a little short sighted when they cant even feed themselves, cloth themselves, vote, etc.

It is up to the parents to provide a moral and spiritual guidance in these matters. Therefore in a free country parents MUST have the choice to send their children to a secular school if they so wish or a religious school.

To say that NOBODY has the right to send their children to a religious school is basically forcing your opinion on others who disagree with you, basically curtailing their rights. Something I thought atheists would be all for?

This is the same sh!t philojakkass pedals whenever the question of schools comes up. Having a menu of schools is completely unworkable especially in the retardedly dispersed population of Ireland.

Dades · 07-06-2011 02:04PM

jank wrote: »

To say that NOBODY has the right to send their children to a religious school is basically forcing your opinion on others who disagree with you, basically curtailing their rights. Something I thought atheists would be all for?

Ah, look I don't think I could advocate parents not having the right to 'indoctrinate' their kids or send them to privately funded schools with a religious ethos. I just wish for a world where this right wouldn't be exercised.

Having two kids and seeing how trusting they are of everything you say it just pains me to see some nonsense fed to other kids before they have a hope of making their own minds up.

robindch · 07-06-2011 02:12PM

Dades wrote: »

Having two kids and seeing how trusting they are of everything you say it just pains me to see some nonsense fed to other kids before they have a hope of making their own minds up.

Was in a playground yesterday and one of the random kids with whom snowflake was playing would periodically stop whatever she was doing, join her hands together and start mouthing christian prayers quite loudly, telling all the other kids to do the same. She looked to be somewhere between four and a half and five.

Wasn't nice to see.

Dades · 07-06-2011 05:38PM

robindch wrote: »

Was in a playground yesterday and one of the random kids with whom snowflake was playing would periodically stop whatever she was doing, join her hands together and start mouthing christian prayers quite loudly, telling all the other kids to do the same. She looked to be somewhere between four and a half and five.

On the same turf - I regularly see a pair of Muslim kids accompanied by wrapped up Muslim mum at our local playground. I always lament that the scarf-free little girl who's enjoying the wind in her hair now will soon be stuck with a headgear in public decree for the rest of her life.

jank · 08-06-2011 02:28AM

pH wrote: »

I have no idea why you think that. We don't need religious fire-brigades, or religious swimming pools, nor do we need religious universities or religious hospitals. You don't have the right to be dealt with by a Garda of a particular religion, nor is their a religious/secular choice in the court system. If parents want to indoctrinate their kids with their particular religion then they should be free to do so, but it's not something that the state education system needs to be involved in.

I think that because I believe first and foremost on the freedom of the individual to choose. What religion a Garda is has nothing to do with this as the Garda's first loyalty is the to the rule of law and the constitution. In fact the Constitution does not discriminate in terms of race of religion but for some reason people/atheists out there want to do just that. Stop ANY religious involvement in ANY education. If you believe that then you believe curtailing other peoples rights in favour of your own, who by the way are in the single digit minority.

Nobody should be able to stop you from sending your children to an atheist or secular school, nor should we stop someone from sending them to a Muslim, Jewish, Christian school. It is quite simple.

Once the curriculum is met and the students are ready to face examinations that are drafted by the state, does it really matter where one learns algebra or French? An A in a secular school is just as good as an A in a religious school. The examiners who mark the papers do not or cannot distinct the students from each other either way.

jank · 08-06-2011 02:34AM

CerebralCortex wrote: »

This is the same sh!t philojakkass pedals whenever the question of schools comes up. Having a menu of schools is completely unworkable especially in the retardedly dispersed population of Ireland.

LOL, quite ironic you bring up the "cost" card in this. If it weren't for religious organisations setting up said universities and schools 200 years ago where the state did not give two ****s either way on education then we would be in worse trouble then now.

Let not throw the baby out with the bathwater here.

Also, it must mean that the desire for secular education although growing is not as strong as maybe precieved. Ireland is a conservative country and things change slowly.

jank · 08-06-2011 02:51AM

Dades wrote: »

Ah, look I don't think I could advocate parents not having the right to 'indoctrinate' their kids or send them to privately funded schools with a religious ethos. I just wish for a world where this right wouldn't be exercised.

Having two kids and seeing how trusting they are of everything you say it just pains me to see some nonsense fed to other kids before they have a hope of making their own minds up.

I wish for world peace but I am a realist. I would not call it indoctrination either. I was raised in a primary school with a very strong catholic bias. I don't go to church anymore.... People when they are older make their own choice. Thinking that if there was no religious upbringing at all in schools would result in a completely non religious society is very factitious. People by their nature will always question and alot will fall into the religious camp, like it or not.

Australia is a good example in this. Very secular society, nobody really cares what religion you are (unless you are a bogan who happens to dislike Muslims, but that is another topic). There are Church's for this or that, schools for this or that. Nobody cares as unlike the US, here in Australia religion is a very private matter. The PM is an atheist for crying out loud and it was mentioned for a day when Julia became PM but then it was forgotten...

However, there are still cult like Church's here who pray on the vulnerable. Goggle Hill-Song, I see young kids, Asian, European, black etc on my way home from work waiting for the bus to take them to the church to pray, sing, give away their money etc..
Most of these kids would have had a very secular upbringing so why do they fall into the clutch of these Church's?

Another example would be USSR. Religion was all but banned for years yet it still remains today.

I suppose my main point in all this is the banning or getting rid of religion in school or education is not the panacea that some atheists/secular people think that will result in a world free of religion.

CerebralCortex · 08-06-2011 09:20AM

jank wrote: »

LOL, quite ironic you bring up the "cost" card in this. If it weren't for religious organisations setting up said universities and schools 200 years ago where the state did not give two ****s either way on education then we would be in worse trouble then now.

Let not throw the baby out with the bathwater here.

Also, it must mean that the desire for secular education although growing is not as strong as maybe precieved. Ireland is a conservative country and things change slowly.

Wow this describes you pretty well.
images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTQyDIePn2gxWKJ5auCzZ1p6AasqSGO5rGChN9wJ0cHYig8ebIg1w

Dades · 08-06-2011 11:00AM

jank wrote: »

LOL, quite ironic you bring up the "cost" card in this. If it weren't for religious organisations setting up said universities and schools 200 years ago where the state did not give two ****s either way on education then we would be in worse trouble then now.

Hmmm, and where did the church acquire the funds to set up universities and schools?

jank wrote: »

However, there are still cult like Church's here who pray on the vulnerable. Goggle Hill-Song, I see young kids, Asian, European, black etc on my way home from work waiting for the bus to take them to the church to pray, sing, give away their money etc..
Most of these kids would have had a very secular upbringing so why do they fall into the clutch of these Church's?

You said it yourself - they are the kids of the vulnerable. It's their parents pushing them into the clutches of the church that they themselves hope will help them in this life or the next.

jank wrote: »

I suppose my main point in all this is the banning or getting rid of religion in school or education is not the panacea that some atheists/secular people think that will result in a world free of religion.

The world will never be free of religion, but at least kids whose parents don't drag them to after-school indoctrination - i.e. most of them - will have the right to make their own minds up.

jank · 09-06-2011 04:22AM

CerebralCortex wrote: »

Wow this describes you pretty well.

So you don't want to argue the point at all?

Harvard, Princeton, Notre Dame, Trinity, Cambridge, Oxford and hundreds of others of the world's top learning centers have been founded by religious orders or clergymen.

These are the facts. Now I know saying ANYTHING even remotely good about religion is like a lightning rod in this forum. I have made my position clear on this issue but to have a world view where 4000 years of history where every single event where there was any affiliation with religion or religious people is ALL BAD is a world view that is just as misguided where it was ALL GOOD.

If one made a list of the top 50 schools in Ireland I would be confident that the vast majority of them would have been founded by religious orders (sure most of them don't have any nuns or brothers left teaching in them so they are pretty secular anyway..). As I said lets not throw the baby out with the bathwater here. I know ideologically that might be hard for some to hear.

jank · 09-06-2011 04:40AM

Dades wrote: »

Hmmm, and where did the church acquire the funds to set up universities and schools?.

Taxes and endowements, like most other institutions.

Dades wrote: »

You said it yourself - they are the kids of the vulnerable. It's their parents pushing them into the clutches of the church that they themselves hope will help them in this life or the next..

No, not at all. Most of the kids I see are from families that are secular. In fact I know of 3 people my own age who's parents do not give a $hit about religion (they are Asian so they are more eastern philosophy then religious) yet they are now born again christians. Go figure.
Also no parents in sight to bring these kids (we are talking about young adults here!!! 18-30) on the bus to hill song.

I think there is an over emphasis on that fact that it is parents who are the ones to blame for their kids turning to religion. Kids will rebel. Most of the people I know who have had strict religious parents are exactly the ones to be totally anti-religious. Secular parents may often lead to secular kids but there is also a strong possibility that these kids will turn to religion for whatever reason.

I dont think its that simple to blame "indoctrinating" parents for all this.

Dades wrote: »

The world will never be free of religion, but at least kids whose parents don't drag them to after-school indoctrination - i.e. most of them - will have the right to make their own minds up.

Most of them do in fairness make up their own mind, kids will either grow out of it, stay with religion for their own proposes, id say only a very very small minority are bullied into it like you are saying.

So going back to the point, the parents should have a right to choose to send their kids to a secular school or a religious school. If someone has an easier answer that does NOT curtails individuals civil rights then I am all ears... otherwise, there is no argument.

What to tell a child who asks? Afterlife etc.

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