What is everyones problem with "Glee"?

Richard Dower · 05-06-2011 12:16AM

I'll mirror Basq; Ioxy and TICKLE here...as y'all know those first 13 eps. i was a self declared Gleek, but it went to hell...especially in season 2. I honestly don't think the drop [not dip] in quality is network pressure....this is all Ryan Murphy.

He has an established reputation of having fantastic first seasons, well mapped out but then it goes to crap. I've said this before many times, Ryan is using Glee to push his own agendas and issues onto the audience.

He FORCED the Kurt gay plotline 2/3rds of this season, i absolutely HATED this and not because i'm homophobic but because i can't stand the fact this gay man (Ryan) is trying to tell me how to think or feel about a gay character.

Don't get me wrong here, S2 had flashes of good and brilliant, Duets was a superb episode, the odd ep. i got that old "Glee" feeling....i described this last season as having a constant smile on my face, after the episode finished i felt soooo happy, Glee filled me with joy those first 13 eps. - but something happened............?

I think those first 13 were sorta cult, underground....by late Nov./mid season break Glee exploded worldwide, it became crass and commercial. The avalanche of Glee news/interviews/spoilers etc. ruined the show.....you'd know WEEKS ahead every single plot point.

The money rolled in, egos went amock, Murphy felt like God "teaching" the kids and giving them a weekly after school special, Prof. Murphy will teach you youngin's how to think and act....ooh and don't forget "the gays", they have it much worse then you...please don't slushie them in the hallway.

Glee went Friends, roll on the weekly guest stars who add nothing and eat airtime that could be devoted to other characters, expect Tina and Mercedes because, well....there not gay or pretty blonde white.

Themed episodes, shippers, pandering, the list goes on.....i don't blame Fox i blame the three muppets who run the show. My only hope now is that Smash turns out to be what i wanted and hoped Glee would be/once was.

ixoy · 05-06-2011 12:37AM

Richard Dower wrote: »

He has an established reputation of having fantastic first seasons, well mapped out but then it goes to crap.

Where else has this happened? The first few seasons of "Nip/Tuck" were enjoyable and Popular's second season got de-railed due to network interference.

He FORCED the Kurt gay plotline 2/3rds of this season, i absolutely HATED this and not because i'm homophobic but because i can't stand the fact this gay man (Ryan) is trying to tell me how to think or feel about a gay character.

Don't agree with you here - he handled some of these elements very well. He was no more or less kid gloves with any group.
Having said that I wanted to smack Kurt's whining face half the time this season so he can't have done a great job making this gay man how to think about a character, unless this was his intention....

expectationlost · 05-06-2011 01:58AM

the lip synching i just can't stand watching it, i know most tv/films do it, but they don't even try to hide it, they do studio quality singing, in a big empty rehearsal room, its just seems so fake, why not have they singing like they are rehearsing,when they are rehearsing, i know it kinda turns into fantasy musical mode, but its just so to watch the mismatch.

PhiloCypher · 05-06-2011 02:25PM

Buffy musical episode > Glee

That is all .

Conor108 · 05-06-2011 04:10PM

The first 10 episodes before the hiatus have a completely different feel to the show now and are far superior episodes. Then as someone said, after the show came back to wrap up season 1 something had changed. It's a cash cow for FOX so we'll see it for years and years...

KnifeWRENCH · 05-06-2011 06:05PM

Completely agree with what Basq said earlier. Glee actually started off really well, but then something happened along the way (network pressure or whatever) that completely ruined the show.

The constant overly politically correct "love yourself" messages, an insipid and uninspiring main character like Mr. Schuster, the sensitive subject of homophobia diluted by having an extremely unlikeable and selfish gay character like Kurt......it all just made me cringe. Which is a shame, because great characters like Sue, Brittany, Mr. Ryerson and even Terri (who I always liked but most people hated) that gave the show a darker, wittier edge early on got diluted or lost along the way.

Glee could have been brilliant. An oppurtunity lost.

Yakult · 05-06-2011 06:12PM

Never watched the show but dislike that asshat Ryan Murphy.

don ramo · 05-06-2011 08:46PM

my interest kinda peaked around the time gwenyth paltrow was on it, so i started watching it from the start, and at first i was kinda surprised that it was as good as it was, it had a hard enough storyline for the show that i thought it was, so i continued watching and near the end of season one it took a turn for the worse, but seeing as i had a few season 2 episodes i gave it the benefit of the doubth and watched them, i didnt finnish them,

and the reason why i didnt watch them was the fact i just didnt like the show in any way any more, it was cliche as has been said, i didnt stick around long enough to hate it becasue why the hell would i, when i dislike a show i simply just stop watching it,

why the hell would anyone continue watching a show they hate so much ill never really understand, and you cant hate a show youve never watched*

*watching a show requires at least 5 consecutive episodes as far as im concerned, in order to form a valid opinion,

Richard Dower · 06-06-2011 03:41AM

don ramo wrote: »

my interest kinda peaked around the time gwenyth paltrow was on it, so i started watching it from the start, and at first i was kinda surprised that it was as good as it was, it had a hard enough storyline for the show that i thought it was, so i continued watching and near the end of season one it took a turn for the worse, but seeing as i had a few season 2 episodes i gave it the benefit of the doubth and watched them, i didnt finnish them,

and the reason why i didnt watch them was the fact i just didnt like the show in any way any more, it was cliche as has been said, i didnt stick around long enough to hate it becasue why the hell would i, when i dislike a show i simply just stop watching it,

why the hell would anyone continue watching a show they hate so much ill never really understand, and you cant hate a show youve never watched*

*watching a show requires at least 5 consecutive episodes as far as im concerned, in order to form a valid opinion,

^ regarding your point about why do folks continue to watch?....it still has good moments, i like the musical elements. It's like you want the show to be better because the basic elements are fresh.

06-06-2011 05:28AM

While the pilot episode was entertaining I never really got into Glee and as time wore on I found it less and less interesting. I watched an episode here and there with my girlfriend and just found it rather watchable fare but not something I would go out of my way to see. I missed most of the second part of season one but what I saw of it was trash.The kind of trite, cookie cutter fare that the network knows will appeal to 13 year old girls who will rush out and download the songs, buy the lunch box, ect. Season 2 has been even worse, I know that every show can't be the Wire of Breaking Bad and that Glee never should be compared to either but after the early promise of season 1 I was genuinely expecting that the show would mature into a new version of Popular.

The shows biggest problem is that the characters have become nothing more than 2D high school stereotypes who only seem to evolve when its convenient for the plot. In fact so stereotypical are the characters that they remind me of the characters from Not Another Teen Movie, only played completely straight without the slightest hint of irony.

There are some very questionable ideas on show. While I may be completely wrong here and correct me if I am but one of the shows constant messages seems to be that it's wrong for popular kids to pick on and make fun of the less popular "freaks." But then the show seems to show that it's perfectly acceptable and commendable when a "freak" bullies a popular character.

I cannot stand the manner in which the show seems to swing from all out attempt at comedy to a serious look at what ever issue is popular at the time. The episode about gay bullying was one of the worst things I have ever seen on TV. It was completely ridiculous and the ending where the boys sang a song usually sung by girls was insulting to be honest. It preached about inclusion and how someones sexual preference shouldn’t dictate how they are treated, which is a commendable message but it was just so badly handled. And the ending was just insulting, it seems that the writers of Glee think that having boys sing a girls song is edgy and shows how times have changed. It felt like something from the early 80s, hell the season 1 episode of Miami Vice about Crocket's gay ex partner was handled far better.

It's also hard to take any message the show has about homosexuality serious when the character of Kurt seems to have been written in so that they could make numerous cheap jokes about his femininity.

Thankfully my girlfriend is tiring of the show also meaning that soon I may no longer have to fear walking in on her watching it. Though that said I can forgive her if she never stops watching it as she let me watch an entire season of Farscape over a day last week and didn’t complain when I started into season 2 the next day.

06-06-2011 05:30AM

Richard Dower wrote: »

^ regarding your point about why do folks continue to watch?....it still has good moments, i like the musical elements. It's like you want the show to be better because the basic elements are fresh.

I take it by fresh you mean original and if so you really couldn't be more wrong. While the first few episodes offered a somewhat original take on the high school genre there is really nothing in Glee that hasn't been done before.

qwerty13 · 06-06-2011 05:45AM

It's got singing and dancing in it.
Terrible lip sync.
Awful, spiteful 2D characters.
Lays on some bloody 'moral' with a trowel.
Stupid guest appearances.
Seems to be the writer's way of belatedly giving the finger to anyone who p*ssed him off in high school.
So many diversity bases covered in such a patronising way that it is like having 20 Tokens.
Cliched, cliched and more cliched.

And mostly because it is the marketing vehicle to get kids to by more music on iTunes.

Tipsy McSwagger · 06-06-2011 10:23AM

I don't watch it because it is sh#t. Annoying stereotypical kids myming to the latest Lady Ga Ga hit is my idea of hell.

FreudianSlippers · 06-06-2011 10:34AM

Yakult wrote: »

Never watched the show but dislike that asshat Ryan Murphy.

Although Nip/Tuck was probably one of my favourite shows of all time, I have to totally agree with you.

don ramo · 06-06-2011 10:54AM

Richard Dower wrote: »

^ regarding your point about why do folks continue to watch?....it still has good moments, i like the musical elements. It's like you want the show to be better because the basic elements are fresh.

but there by far outweiged by the bad, as i said i gave it the benifit of the doubth, i didnt see any signs of improvment from the second half of season 1 and first part of season 2, so as i said i wasnt sticking around long enough for the show to get on my nerves, and dont see any point in doing so,

the show did seem fresh with the teenage pregnancy and bullying aspects they kicked off with, but then quinn dropped and was just accepted back as head of the cheerios and abstinence club, with zero mention of the baby afterwards, and the only real bullying left was kurts, that forced him the transfer (where i stopped watching) there was noting really happening in season 2, the crossdressing coach makes no sense at all, and they are just adding people in for the sake of it, i dyed my hair blonde as i just wanted to fit in, why, that makes no sense,

i think it was on a few saturdays ago on rte and quinn and finn seemed to be back together WTF, i saw that i said WTF and then realised it was things like this that turned me off it, the show had great potential but when it got slight success the execs decided the draw in a few extra million viewers so targeted the family market as usual when they a scent of it,

a few fresh writers and the showrunner growing a pair could make the show good again, hell i could give them some ideas, i cant write but im sure if given a few days i could make up some more realistic storylines than these writers have come up with,

TICKLE_ME_ELMO · 06-06-2011 01:39PM

KnifeWRENCH wrote: »

The constant overly politically correct "love yourself" messages, an insipid and uninspiring main character like Mr. Schuster, the sensitive subject of homophobia diluted by having an extremely unlikeable and selfish gay character like Kurt......it all just made me cringe. Which is a shame, because great characters like Sue, Brittany, Mr. Ryerson and even Terri (who I always liked but most people hated) that gave the show a darker, wittier edge early on got diluted or lost along the way.

I agree about Kurt. I hated him the first season, and it had nothing to do with the fact that he was gay. He was selfish and a complete cow to everyone. He was absolutely horrible to Rachel for the majority of the first season even though of all the kids there she was the only one who was nice to everyone. He continually tried to force himself on Finn even though it was blatantly obvious that Finn was as straight as they come and extremely uncomfortable with Kurt's attention. The episode where Kurt's dad kicked Finn out was a particular low point as far as Kurt went.
In fairness from what I saw of season 2 they did manage to make Kurt slightly more likable but it still seemed like all Kurt was was a gay kid. But like a few others have pointed out, most of the characters have become one dimensional stereotypes, so it's not surprising that all Kurt is is the gay kid.
I know homophobic bullying is a major problem in the US and kids are killing themselves over it all the time, but I can't help but think that having a strong and confident and nice character, who also happens to be gay, would send a better message to people than just having a stereotypical gay character like Kurt is. In fact I'd go so far as to say that the little bits of Karovsky's storyline that I saw probably did a better job of portraying a teen struggling with their sexuality than all the endless Kurt stuff they push at the audience.

As for the "love yourself" message. I think it does a terrible job of that. They're not saying love yourself as you are, they're saying love yourself if you're different. What about the kids that are just the same as everyone else? What about the kids that just like to play sports, or go to parties, or do nothing? Glee puts across the idea that the talented or individual kids are far better people than the average high schoolers and that those kids who follow trends or stay in their cliques will amount to nothing when they graduate. It gives kids the attitude that if they're weird and out there that they're better than being normal. There's nothing wrong with being either way, if it's who you really are. I think Glee does a terrible job at portraying this.

It's like I said before about the bullying. Plenty of the Glee kids bully others, Santana does it, Lauren does it, and 99% of the Glee kids bullied Rachel all of season 1 and probably still do it in season 2 (I stopped watching). They have one of the Glee kids do something and it's put across as being funny or clever, but when it's done to one of them it's bullying. There should be no distinction. Bullying is bullying.

Richard Dower · 06-06-2011 02:00PM

^ 110% agree...Karofsky makes a better gay character then kurt. His struggle was far more belivable and realistic, also...it wasn't forced like Kurt. i was accused of homophobia because of the Glee gay agenda....i still stand by that statement.

Forcing the viewer to think and feel a certain way about Kurt turned me off, i don't need Murphy telling me how i should feel, especially when it's very blatant he's forcing the viewer to think a certain way. Also the BIGGEST bully on the show is an ADULT!, a TEACHER!!.....Sue!!

TICKLE_ME_ELMO · 06-06-2011 02:24PM

Richard Dower wrote: »

^ 110% agree...Karofsky makes a better gay character then kurt. His struggle was far more belivable and realistic, also...it wasn't forced like Kurt. i was accused of homophobia because of the Glee gay agenda....i still stand by that statement.

I remember during season 1, when I was a big fan of the show & was posting on a Glee forum, constantly being attacked for saying that Kurt was selfish, or nasty or even just wrong about something. I was called homophobic over and over again. I think the writing of the show is to blame for this. A lot of fans (probably younger ones to be fair) seem to only see Kurt as gay and if you don't like him it must be because he's gay. It's easy to see why some of them have that idea, when everything the character does revolves around him being gay. But it's a horrible idea to take into the real world. These people think they're tolerant and understanding individuals but they don't seem to be able to see that there's more to a person than their sexuality and it's OK to not like someone who's gay when the reasons for not liking them have zero to do with their sexuality. If I was gay I would absolutely detest people who went around defining everything in my life by my sexuality.

Also the BIGGEST bully on the show is an ADULT!, a TEACHER!!.....Sue!!

This is a perfect example. When Sue does something it's hilarious and she's like a comic book villain but if one of the jocks does something it's bullying and wrong. I know Sue isn't meant to be taken seriously but there's so many mixed messages on the show that it's just too much of a mess.

ixoy · 06-06-2011 04:58PM

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

I remember during season 1, when I was a big fan of the show & was posting on a Glee forum, constantly being attacked for saying that Kurt was selfish, or nasty or even just wrong about something. I was called homophobic over and over again. I think the writing of the show is to blame for this. A lot of fans (probably younger ones to be fair) seem to only see Kurt as gay and if you don't like him it must be because he's gay. It's easy to see why some of them have that idea, when everything the character does revolves around him being gay. But it's a horrible idea to take into the real world. These people think they're tolerant and understanding individuals but they don't seem to be able to see that there's more to a person than their sexuality and it's OK to not like someone who's gay when the reasons for not liking them have zero to do with their sexuality. If I was gay I would absolutely detest people who went around defining everything in my life by my sexuality.

Some people in those threads - and I'm not sure if you were among them - talked about a "gay agenda" and that immediately derails the thread because it's a very loaded phrase, insinuating there's some sort of gay master plan at work. Bollocks.

I don't think anyone ever said though that you couldn't like Kurt - could you point it out to me? He was decent for most of the time in S1 but his prima donna selfish antics in the second season infuriated me at times, as was his reactions to everyone who didn't understand him. I think the show did try and make us understand him but were we always meant to sympathise with him? I didn't, my bf didn't. I'm assuming we weren't because then it was a
major failing...

As to how it defines characters flatly... I'd tend to agree. "Popular" worked by subverting those stereotypes, showing more depth to them. "Glee" started with that - and then stopped. A little bit more depth wouldn't hurt it at all.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO · 06-06-2011 05:39PM

ixoy wrote: »

Some people in those threads - and I'm not sure if you were among them - talked about a "gay agenda" and that immediately derails the thread because it's a very loaded phrase, insinuating there's some sort of gay master plan at work. Bollocks.

I don't think anyone ever said though that you couldn't like Kurt - could you point it out to me? He was decent for most of the time in S1 but his prima donna selfish antics in the second season infuriated me at times, as was his reactions to everyone who didn't understand him. I think the show did try and make us understand him but were we always meant to sympathise with him? I didn't, my bf didn't. I'm assuming we weren't because then it was a
major failing...

I wasn't one of the ones saying there was a "gay agenda". I just think that with the character of Kurt Ryan Murphy is trying to tackle the issue of being a gay teenager and I think he's not doing a great job of it. Or perhaps I should say that based on the reactions of some people on Glee fan sites during the first season, they were missing the point completely.

As for the "not being allowed to dislike Kurt" thing, it was on a glee specific forum and in the episode discussion threads during season 1 if anybody made any reference to Kurt being annoying or selfish or whatever there would be a pile of replies calling that poster homophobic. I'd go so far as to say that none of the criticism of him was directed at his sexuality but there was always large numbers of posters leaping to his defense, who would immediately put the focus on his sexuality.
Now I know you can't judge people by what they do or say on the internet, but it was obvious that a lot of them were of the opinion that you can't call someone out on being selfish or mean or whatever if they're gay. Or they're of the misguided notion that disliking a gay person makes you homophobic even when it's their personality that you don't like.

That's probably gone off the point of this thread a bit, but the point I was trying to make is that the show has perhaps set out to deal with a very serious issue as far as this character is concerned but aren't doing it very well.

ejmaztec · 06-06-2011 06:09PM

I never watched it, nor do I intend to, because I hate musicals.

conorburke2011 · 07-06-2011 03:42PM

I still don't agree with people here saying that the characters have become "2 dimensional". I mean, haven't they always been? In the pilot we were introduced to the sterotpical gay kid (Kurt) bad boy (Puck) jock (Finn) the strong independent black woman (Mercedes), mean cheerleaders (Quinn, Brittany and Santana). So my opinion is this season the characters have actually become less 2 dimensional than they were in the 1st. An example is being Santana's sexuality, Karofsky being gay and Blaine Kurts boyfriend being gay. This is not 2-dimensional in the least.

Richard Dower · 07-06-2011 04:19PM

ixoy wrote: »

Some people in those threads - and I'm not sure if you were among them - talked about a "gay agenda" and that immediately derails the thread because it's a very loaded phrase, insinuating there's some sort of gay master plan at work. Bollocks.

I don't think anyone ever said though that you couldn't like Kurt - could you point it out to me? He was decent for most of the time in S1 but his prima donna selfish antics in the second season infuriated me at times, as was his reactions to everyone who didn't understand him. I think the show did try and make us understand him but were we always meant to sympathise with him? I didn't, my bf didn't. I'm assuming we weren't because then it was a
major failing...

As to how it defines characters flatly... I'd tend to agree. "Popular" worked by subverting those stereotypes, showing more depth to them. "Glee" started with that - and then stopped. A little bit more depth wouldn't hurt it at all.

I'll only speak for myself but yes i 100% did say Ryan Murphy was pushing his gay agenda, i still stand by that and i won't apologise for it. It was CLEAR Murphy was PUSHING/FORCING a gay plotline on the audience....forcing us how to think and feel about Kurt.

You cannot tell me that as a gay man Murphy has agendas, storylines, and issues concerning gay characters/people he does not want to push, and i say push for a reason, on the audience.

Richard Dower · 07-06-2011 04:25PM

conorburke2011 wrote: »

I still don't agree with people here saying that the characters have become "2 dimensional". I mean, haven't they always been? In the pilot we were introduced to the sterotpical gay kid (Kurt) bad boy (Puck) jock (Finn) the strong independent black woman (Mercedes), mean cheerleaders (Quinn, Brittany and Santana). So my opinion is this season the characters have actually become less 2 dimensional than they were in the 1st. An example is being Santana's sexuality, Karofsky being gay and Blaine Kurts boyfriend being gay. This is not 2-dimensional in the least.

^ this is true, but as Basq and others pointed out they were DELIBERATE sendups, it was satire...ala Popular, but then they became the cliches they were sending up.

The humour was darker, it mocked popular culture not embraced it like now, i mean....now Murphy weavs every damn fad of the moment into the show, Rebacca Black anyone?

They were a huge shift in tone, feel and direction once the back 9 of season 1 dropped. Glee initially was very culty, it had adult humour, it had adult situations, it took risks, it was verging on cable content.

Now it's Disney.

Richard Dower · 07-06-2011 04:27PM

conorburke2011 wrote: »

I still don't agree with people here saying that the characters have become "2 dimensional". I mean, haven't they always been? In the pilot we were introduced to the sterotpical gay kid (Kurt) bad boy (Puck) jock (Finn) the strong independent black woman (Mercedes), mean cheerleaders (Quinn, Brittany and Santana). So my opinion is this season the characters have actually become less 2 dimensional than they were in the 1st. An example is being Santana's sexuality, Karofsky being gay and Blaine Kurts boyfriend being gay. This is not 2-dimensional in the least.

:rolleyes: came outta nowhere, shoehorned in....no buildup, just...oh hey guess what guys?....i'm gay too! :rolleyes:

TICKLE_ME_ELMO · 07-06-2011 04:51PM

conorburke2011 wrote: »

I still don't agree with people here saying that the characters have become "2 dimensional". I mean, haven't they always been? In the pilot we were introduced to the sterotpical gay kid (Kurt) bad boy (Puck) jock (Finn) the strong independent black woman (Mercedes), mean cheerleaders (Quinn, Brittany and Santana). So my opinion is this season the characters have actually become less 2 dimensional than they were in the 1st. An example is being Santana's sexuality, Karofsky being gay and Blaine Kurts boyfriend being gay. This is not 2-dimensional in the least.

They were presented as these stereotypes but over some of the episodes in the first season they were shown to have more depth and issues of their own that made them present themselves in a certain way. Season 2 undid all of that and put them all back to the people they were at the start and they've shown no growth at all.
Look at the growth Puck showed in season 1 while Quinn was pregnant, he tried to be a better person and pull himself out of the rut he was in and to a small degree he succeeded. Then season 2 comes along and forgets that Puck and Quinn had a baby together or that they even bloody know each other. Puck goes right back to being the "bad boy stud" and Quinn who showed some growth while dealing with the baby is right back to being the cold bitch desperate to be on top of the social pyramid. Don't even get me started on how they went back to Finn/Quinn.

Sesudra · 07-06-2011 04:54PM

Richard Dower wrote: »

:rolleyes: came outta nowhere, shoehorned in....no buildup, just...oh hey guess what guys?....i'm gay too! :rolleyes:

Santana and Brittany being more than just friends was definitely mentioned on a few occasions before Santana had her big realisation in S2.I remember someone talking about kissing making you a couple (or something to that effect) and Brittany saying "Well I guess me and Santana are a couple then", and that wasn't the only time it was mentioned in S1

AnalogueKid · 07-06-2011 05:02PM

I don't watch it because the parts I've seen have been not in the least bit interesting or entertaining. It simply grates on me, both the dialogue and the horribly auto-tuned vocals. That's my problem with Glee anyway.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO · 07-06-2011 05:05PM

AnalogueKid wrote: »

I don't watch it because the parts I've seen have been not in the least bit interesting or entertaining. It simply grates on me, both the dialogue and the horribly auto-tuned vocals. That's my problem with Glee anyway.

That annoys me no end. Especially when they've got proper talented singers there and they're auto tuning them to sound like robots. Lea Michele was on Broadway for years, singing live every night, and they make her sound like any run of the mill talentless pop star.

Jaxxy · 07-06-2011 05:05PM

I stopped watching it when I started to feel patronised. It was always "rubbish", but at least in the beginning it was entertaining, slightly edgy rubbish, now it's just plain old boring, samey, stop preaching at me damn you rubbish.

What is everyones problem with "Glee"?

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