What is everyones problem with "Glee"?

conorburke2011

I have decided not to post this in the Glee Forum as there obviously will be biased opinion. I just wanted to know what everyones problem with the US tv show "Glee" is? I understand why people dislike the show- but hate it? I agree that the writing was a bit sloppy in the 2nd season, and sometimes the music is a bit overtly auto-tuned but I hate the way people just despise this show for no particular reason. It generally has great storylines, great performances and I know that the cast don't need auto-tune at all. It's a shame that they use it but.... So anyway why do so many people hate it? To be honest with you I hear much worse things about "Glee"- I hardly hear anything positive about it! My opinion is that when something becomes extremely popular people automatically hate it. Also, don't get me wrong- I'm not saying you should love this show, I jsut think people should give it more of a chance.

liah

People just like to hate popular things because it makes them feel like they're better/smarter than the people who enjoy them.

I haven't watched the show, myself. Just sick of listening to the whinging. If you don't like it, turn it off. Why let it develop into hate unless you just enjoy the act of moaning?

Minstrel27

conorburke2011 wrote: »

I hate the way people just despise this show for no particular reason

Not everyone is into singing and dancing. Deal with it.

liah

Minstrel27 wrote: »

Not everyone is into singing and dancing. Deal with it.

Yeah, everyone understands dislike, that isn't the topic though - why go to the effort of actually despising something you don't actually have to have any exposure to?

Basq

I watched the whole first year and the start of the second.. I actually really enjoyed it at the start but something happened mid-way through the first year, the show started off as a biting satire against the television high school genre but characters soon became the exact clichéd persona that the show was jabbing originally.

Jane Lynch who started off hilarious appeared less and less, and her humour and comments became very watered down.

Lots of characters then became hugely dislikable - Rachel first and foremost getting the brunt of it (be it via the Internet mostly) but also Kurt's actions / decisions grew increasingly erratic and didn't make sense.

My girlfriend still watches it and it growing increasingly tired of it.. she tells me it's just not as entertaining and solid writing isn't there anymore.

I now highly dislike the show merely for not sticking to it's morals and obviously Ryan Murphy (and others) caved to network pressure.

I don't HATE the show, but I don't respect it or rate it in the slightest anymore.

amacachi

liah wrote: »

People just like to hate popular things because it makes them feel like they're better/smarter than the people who enjoy them.

I haven't watched the show, myself. Just sick of listening to the whinging. If you don't like it, turn it off. Why let it develop into hate unless you just enjoy the act of moaning?

Good to see you've found a way to feel superior to one of the groups at least.

conorburke2011

liah wrote: »

People just like to hate popular things because it makes them feel like they're better/smarter than the people who enjoy them.

I haven't watched the show, myself. Just sick of listening to the whinging. If you don't like it, turn it off. Why let it develop into hate unless you just enjoy the act of moaning?

I completley agree with you. From a critical point of view, it's not the best show in the world but what makes people think that "South Park" and "Battlestar Gallactica" are? I'm just making the point that there a lot worse shows out there than Glee, yet Glee seems to get more stick than any other TV show out there!

conorburke2011

Basq wrote: »

I watched the whole first year and the start of the second.. I actually really enjoyed it at the start but something happened mid-way through the first year, the show started off as a biting satire against the television high school genre but characters soon became the exact clichéd persona that the show was jabbing originally.

Jane Lynch who started off hilarious appeared less and less, and her humour and comments became very watered down.

Lots of characters then became hugely dislikable - Rachel first and foremost getting the brunt of it (be it via the Internet mostly) but also Kurt's actions / decisions grew increasingly erratic and didn't make sense.

My girlfriend still watches it and it growing increasingly tired of it.. she tells me it's just not as entertaining and solid writing isn't there anymore.

I now highly dislike the show merely for not sticking to it's morals and obviously Ryan Murphy (and others) caved to network pressure.

I don't HATE the show, but I don't respect it or rate it in the slightest anymore.

I agree with you on a number of points, but do you not feel that the show is suffering from the "2nd season slump?". I'm sure you've heard of tv shows that lose their quality in the 2nd season? It happens on the majority of tv shows and for some reason "Glee" is the only tv show out there that gets highly criticised for it.

Minstrel27

conorburke2011 wrote: »

From a critical point of view, it's not the best show in the world but what makes people think that "South Park" and "Battlestar Gallactica" are?

South Park is receiving criticism. It has been absolute muck compared to earlier seasons.

frag420

I hate it because I apparently look like a character call Glen in the show and get told this most weekends I am out.

And I'm more of a sex drugs and rock n roll type!!

Basq

conorburke2011 wrote: »

I agree with you on a number of points, but do you not feel that the show is suffering from the "2nd season slump?". I'm sure you've heard of tv shows that lose their quality in the 2nd season? It happens on the majority of tv shows and for some reason "Glee" is the only tv show out there that gets highly criticised for it.

No, it wasn't a second season slump. Read my post again..

Something happened the show mid-season in it's first season.. the creators obviously caved to network pressure and toned down the show. And due to this - it's writing, characters and general quality took a sharp nosedive.

Many shows lose quality in it's second season but this show didn't just suffer from "2nd season jitters" (which usually occurs with a lack of direction for a storyline or just inability to recreate the sharpless of went before it).. this show suffers from drastic network changes which made it lose all credibility and it suffered HUGELY because of it.

conorburke2011

Minstrel27 wrote: »

Not everyone is into singing and dancing. Deal with it.

You dont necessarily have to enjoy singing and dancing to enjoy it....?

conorburke2011

Basq wrote: »

No, it wasn't a second season slump. Read my post again..

Something happened the show mid-season in it's first season.. the creators obviously caved to network pressure and toned down the show. And due to this - it's writing, characters and general quality took a sharp nosedive.

Many shows lose quality in it's second season but this show didn't just suffer from "2nd season jitters" (which usually occurs with a lack of direction for a storyline or just inability to recreate the sharpless of went before it).. this show suffers from drastic network changes which made it lose all credibility and it suffered HUGELY because of it.

Okay, wait a second- why would the network (Fox) want to pressure Ryan Murphy and the writers to "tone it down"? In it's 2nd season, the show has been more controversial than the 1st, without a doubt.

Minstrel27

Oh really? What happens when they start singing and dancing? Do I ignore it? I have seen two episodes of Glee and I despised it both times. It is the type of programme I will never like. That's not going to change.

conorburke2011

Minstrel27 wrote: »

Oh really? What happens when they start singing and dancing? Do I ignore it? I have seen two episodes of Glee and I despised it both times. It is the type of programme I will never like. That's not going to change.

OK -thats fine- completley understandable- but at the end of the day this show gets way to much negative attention- and you cant really argue with me based on the fact that youve only seen two episodes!:P

conorburke2011

frag420 wrote: »

I hate it because I apparently look like a character call Glen in the show and get told this most weekends I am out.

And I'm more of a sex drugs and rock n roll type!!

Hahahaha! Um.... there's no one on the show called Glen,hahaha!

Basq

conorburke2011 wrote: »

Okay, wait a second- why would the network (Fox) want to pressure Ryan Murphy and the writers to "tone it down"?

Because Ryan Murphy clearly never envisioned Glee as a family show persé.. he envisioned it more of a "Popular 2.0" (although Popular's writing was MUCH stronger).

Then it became HUGELY successful and Fox obviously saw the need to draw in the youngsters further by pandering to them by making the humour / jokes as obvious as a punch to the head, songs became even cheesier (if that was possibly), characters became irritational
and the drama became soapy and unconvincing.

Let's face it.. the show's core audience is teenagers / tweenies.

conorburke2011 wrote: »

In it's 2nd season, the show has been more controversial than the 1st, without a doubt.

Some of the storylines may have been controversial.. but I gave up on the show after that religious episode (Grilled Cheesus) which was just insulting and horrible.

Minstrel27

conorburke2011 wrote: »

OK -thats fine- completley understandable- but at the end of the day this show gets way to much negative attention- and you cant really argue with me based on the fact that youve only seen two episodes!:P

I am not trying to argue with you about anything. I merely stated my opinion on what I believe to be a god awful television show.

conorburke2011

Minstrel27 wrote: »

I am not trying to argue with you about anything. I merely stated my opinion on what I believe to be a god awful television show.

Fair enough! I know people who feel exactly the same! But you can't say it's "a god awful tv show" if you've only seen 2 episodes! And you can't say it's terrible just because they sing and dance!

Minstrel27

conorburke2011 wrote: »

Fair enough! I know people who feel exactly the same! But you can't say it's "a god awful tv show" if you've only seen 2 episodes! And you can't say it's terrible just because they sing and dance!

Why can't I? It is my personal preference and I strongly dislike musical tv shows.

I believe the problem here is you. You cannot seem to accept that other people might hate something you like.

conorburke2011

Basq wrote: »

Because Ryan Murphy clearly never envisioned Glee as a family show persé.. he envisioned it more of a "Popular 2.0" (although Popular's writing was MUCH stronger).

Then it became HUGELY successful and Fox obviously saw the need to draw in the youngsters further by pandering to them by making the humour / jokes as obvious as a punch to the head, songs became even cheesier (if that was possibly), characters became irritational
and the drama became soapy and unconvincing.

Let's face it.. the show's core audience is teenagers / tweenies.


Some of the storylines may have been controversial.. but I gave up on the show after that religious episode (Grilled Cheesus) which was just insulting and horrible.

Yea, now that you say it I agree with you on a number of points- I just don't understand the "toning it down" aspect for kids because the show is constantly filled with sexual innuendos and storylines about homophobic bullying. As odd as this sounds, a lot of parents don't want their children exposed to this liberal view (unfortunately) so I think that by "toning the show down" Fox has actually lost a lot of viewers.

conorburke2011

Minstrel27 wrote: »

Why can't I? It is my personal preference and I strongly dislike musical tv shows.

I believe the problem here is you. You cannot seem to accept that other people might hate something you like.

I can- you just can't judge something that quick! Fyi, I find the show OK. I'm not a "gleek"- I just hold the view that some people are completley ignorant to the fact that just because it involves singing and dancing, it is AWFUL. Come on, get real like!

sonic85

have nothing against the show or the people that watch it but its rubbish. high school musical for a slightly older crowd i think and the whole thing is just a bit too camp

Minstrel27

conorburke2011 wrote: »

I just hold the view that some people are completley ignorant to the fact that just because it involves singing and dancing, it is AWFUL. Come on, get real like!

How are you failing to grasp that some people do not like shows heavily influenced by singing and dancing? Glee features a lot of this. The only one that needs to get real is you.

conorburke2011

sonic85 wrote: »

have nothing against the show or the people that watch it but its rubbish. high school musical for a slightly older crowd i think and the whole thing is just a bit too camp

Yea, its the perfect thing for some people and others just hate it! What's you opinion though- do you think it gets too heavily criticised?:)

conorburke2011

Minstrel27 wrote: »

How are you failing to grasp that some people do not like shows heavily influenced by singing and dancing? Glee features a lot of this. The only one that needs to get real is you.

Ive got a friend who is a "gleek" and he's the type of person who has nothing but Glee and..... heavy metal on his ipod. Seriously, I dont care if someone doesnt like it Im just making the point that its extremely criticised ALL the time and other shows ( which do be worse) dont.

Minstrel27

conorburke2011 wrote: »

Ive got a friend who is a "gleek" and he's the type of person who has nothing but Glee and..... heavy metal on his ipod.

That's the wonders of personal opinion and choice. I have a wide variety of music on my ipod too.

sonic85

conorburke2011 wrote: »

Yea, its the perfect thing for some people and others just hate it! What's you opinion though- do you think it gets too heavily criticised?:)

i dont think its overly criticised. no more than any other show. some people love it some people hate it - just personal preference

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

The first 13 episodes of the first season were fantastic TV. They were made in a bubble, all wrapped up before the pilot even aired on TV. Then the back nine episodes of season 1 were a mess. They were influenced by the success of the first 13 episodes and they story lines and plots went out the window in favour of "themed episodes" and silly guest star appearances.

The second season continued in much the same way with the added bonus of pretty much everything that happened in season 1 being forgotten about, and the majority of characters became one dimensional characatuers of themselves. The concept of continuity seems to be a foreign one to the writers, and the fact that there's only three writers on the show it shouldn't be that hard to keep things on track. Also there's the painfully manipulative "emotional episodes" which are so forced and random that it almost makes me angry when it happens. Not to mention the bloody ham fisted attempts at sending a "positive message to the kids" about being an individual and unique and all that. The only message the show sends is that the popular kids aren't allowed be mean to the "freaks" but if you're a freak you can bully whoever you like. Lauren is one of the worst examples of this, she's nothing but a bully but because she's not a size zero airhead it's OK for her to be a bully.

Anyway, point being that those are the reasons I hate the show. If they'd continued on like it started out then it could've been amazing and I'd still love it, but as it is I can't stand it. I think it probably gets criticised more than other shows is because it did start out so well, but then took a massive dip in quality, so comparing recent episodes to older ones is obviously going to draw a lot of criticism.
The fact that FOX picked it up for 2 seasons after season 1 seems to have given Ryan Murphy the idea that he can just write whatever crap he wants because it's not going to be canceled anyway. Plus, the fact that FOX makes a boat load of cash of those kids is kind of disgusting, but that's more of an issue with the network than with the show itself.

However, I think it's quite likely that a lot of people "hate" the show because it is so popular and it's not cool to like the same things as everyone else.

sonic85

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

However, I think it's quite likely that a lot of people "hate" the show because it is so popular and it's not cool to like the same things as everyone else.

if thats the case thats a bit sad to be honest. everybody should have their own mind and not just be working on the basis of whats cool and whats not. i watched an episode and didnt like it - not because i thought it wasnt cool but because i hated the singing and dancing and because its just not funny.

ixoy

It's alright but it could be so much more. There's too much forced happy message and, at times, it's not far off the old sermons He-Man used to give to the audience after he saved Eternia from Skeletor.

As others pointed out, it fell victim to its own success. In earlier episodes for example, I recall when Will violently shoved his then wife up against the wall. You'd never see that edgier material later on.

Anyone who has seen "Popular" knows that Ryan Murphy can produce much sharper work with more biting satire. "Popular"'s first season finale is a glorious tribute to insanity, sending up the entire high school genre. If only "Glee" could match that.

Richard Dower

I'll mirror Basq; Ioxy and TICKLE here...as y'all know those first 13 eps. i was a self declared Gleek, but it went to hell...especially in season 2. I honestly don't think the drop [not dip] in quality is network pressure....this is all Ryan Murphy.

He has an established reputation of having fantastic first seasons, well mapped out but then it goes to crap. I've said this before many times, Ryan is using Glee to push his own agendas and issues onto the audience.

He FORCED the Kurt gay plotline 2/3rds of this season, i absolutely HATED this and not because i'm homophobic but because i can't stand the fact this gay man (Ryan) is trying to tell me how to think or feel about a gay character.

Don't get me wrong here, S2 had flashes of good and brilliant, Duets was a superb episode, the odd ep. i got that old "Glee" feeling....i described this last season as having a constant smile on my face, after the episode finished i felt soooo happy, Glee filled me with joy those first 13 eps. - but something happened............?

I think those first 13 were sorta cult, underground....by late Nov./mid season break Glee exploded worldwide, it became crass and commercial. The avalanche of Glee news/interviews/spoilers etc. ruined the show.....you'd know WEEKS ahead every single plot point.

The money rolled in, egos went amock, Murphy felt like God "teaching" the kids and giving them a weekly after school special, Prof. Murphy will teach you youngin's how to think and act....ooh and don't forget "the gays", they have it much worse then you...please don't slushie them in the hallway.

Glee went Friends, roll on the weekly guest stars who add nothing and eat airtime that could be devoted to other characters, expect Tina and Mercedes because, well....there not gay or pretty blonde white.

Themed episodes, shippers, pandering, the list goes on.....i don't blame Fox i blame the three muppets who run the show. My only hope now is that Smash turns out to be what i wanted and hoped Glee would be/once was.

ixoy

Richard Dower wrote: »

He has an established reputation of having fantastic first seasons, well mapped out but then it goes to crap.

Where else has this happened? The first few seasons of "Nip/Tuck" were enjoyable and Popular's second season got de-railed due to network interference.

He FORCED the Kurt gay plotline 2/3rds of this season, i absolutely HATED this and not because i'm homophobic but because i can't stand the fact this gay man (Ryan) is trying to tell me how to think or feel about a gay character.

Don't agree with you here - he handled some of these elements very well. He was no more or less kid gloves with any group.
Having said that I wanted to smack Kurt's whining face half the time this season so he can't have done a great job making this gay man how to think about a character, unless this was his intention....

expectationlost

the lip synching i just can't stand watching it, i know most tv/films do it, but they don't even try to hide it, they do studio quality singing, in a big empty rehearsal room, its just seems so fake, why not have they singing like they are rehearsing,when they are rehearsing, i know it kinda turns into fantasy musical mode, but its just so to watch the mismatch.

PhiloCypher

Buffy musical episode > Glee

That is all .

Conor108

The first 10 episodes before the hiatus have a completely different feel to the show now and are far superior episodes. Then as someone said, after the show came back to wrap up season 1 something had changed. It's a cash cow for FOX so we'll see it for years and years...

KnifeWRENCH

Completely agree with what Basq said earlier. Glee actually started off really well, but then something happened along the way (network pressure or whatever) that completely ruined the show.

The constant overly politically correct "love yourself" messages, an insipid and uninspiring main character like Mr. Schuster, the sensitive subject of homophobia diluted by having an extremely unlikeable and selfish gay character like Kurt......it all just made me cringe. Which is a shame, because great characters like Sue, Brittany, Mr. Ryerson and even Terri (who I always liked but most people hated) that gave the show a darker, wittier edge early on got diluted or lost along the way.

Glee could have been brilliant. An oppurtunity lost.

Yakult

Never watched the show but dislike that asshat Ryan Murphy.

don ramo

my interest kinda peaked around the time gwenyth paltrow was on it, so i started watching it from the start, and at first i was kinda surprised that it was as good as it was, it had a hard enough storyline for the show that i thought it was, so i continued watching and near the end of season one it took a turn for the worse, but seeing as i had a few season 2 episodes i gave it the benefit of the doubth and watched them, i didnt finnish them,

and the reason why i didnt watch them was the fact i just didnt like the show in any way any more, it was cliche as has been said, i didnt stick around long enough to hate it becasue why the hell would i, when i dislike a show i simply just stop watching it,

why the hell would anyone continue watching a show they hate so much ill never really understand, and you cant hate a show youve never watched*

*watching a show requires at least 5 consecutive episodes as far as im concerned, in order to form a valid opinion,

Richard Dower

don ramo wrote: »

my interest kinda peaked around the time gwenyth paltrow was on it, so i started watching it from the start, and at first i was kinda surprised that it was as good as it was, it had a hard enough storyline for the show that i thought it was, so i continued watching and near the end of season one it took a turn for the worse, but seeing as i had a few season 2 episodes i gave it the benefit of the doubth and watched them, i didnt finnish them,

and the reason why i didnt watch them was the fact i just didnt like the show in any way any more, it was cliche as has been said, i didnt stick around long enough to hate it becasue why the hell would i, when i dislike a show i simply just stop watching it,

why the hell would anyone continue watching a show they hate so much ill never really understand, and you cant hate a show youve never watched*

*watching a show requires at least 5 consecutive episodes as far as im concerned, in order to form a valid opinion,

^ regarding your point about why do folks continue to watch?....it still has good moments, i like the musical elements. It's like you want the show to be better because the basic elements are fresh.

While the pilot episode was entertaining I never really got into Glee and as time wore on I found it less and less interesting. I watched an episode here and there with my girlfriend and just found it rather watchable fare but not something I would go out of my way to see. I missed most of the second part of season one but what I saw of it was trash.The kind of trite, cookie cutter fare that the network knows will appeal to 13 year old girls who will rush out and download the songs, buy the lunch box, ect. Season 2 has been even worse, I know that every show can't be the Wire of Breaking Bad and that Glee never should be compared to either but after the early promise of season 1 I was genuinely expecting that the show would mature into a new version of Popular.

The shows biggest problem is that the characters have become nothing more than 2D high school stereotypes who only seem to evolve when its convenient for the plot. In fact so stereotypical are the characters that they remind me of the characters from Not Another Teen Movie, only played completely straight without the slightest hint of irony.

There are some very questionable ideas on show. While I may be completely wrong here and correct me if I am but one of the shows constant messages seems to be that it's wrong for popular kids to pick on and make fun of the less popular "freaks." But then the show seems to show that it's perfectly acceptable and commendable when a "freak" bullies a popular character.

I cannot stand the manner in which the show seems to swing from all out attempt at comedy to a serious look at what ever issue is popular at the time. The episode about gay bullying was one of the worst things I have ever seen on TV. It was completely ridiculous and the ending where the boys sang a song usually sung by girls was insulting to be honest. It preached about inclusion and how someones sexual preference shouldn’t dictate how they are treated, which is a commendable message but it was just so badly handled. And the ending was just insulting, it seems that the writers of Glee think that having boys sing a girls song is edgy and shows how times have changed. It felt like something from the early 80s, hell the season 1 episode of Miami Vice about Crocket's gay ex partner was handled far better.

It's also hard to take any message the show has about homosexuality serious when the character of Kurt seems to have been written in so that they could make numerous cheap jokes about his femininity.

Thankfully my girlfriend is tiring of the show also meaning that soon I may no longer have to fear walking in on her watching it. Though that said I can forgive her if she never stops watching it as she let me watch an entire season of Farscape over a day last week and didn’t complain when I started into season 2 the next day.

Richard Dower

Richard Dower wrote: »

^ regarding your point about why do folks continue to watch?....it still has good moments, i like the musical elements. It's like you want the show to be better because the basic elements are fresh.

I take it by fresh you mean original and if so you really couldn't be more wrong. While the first few episodes offered a somewhat original take on the high school genre there is really nothing in Glee that hasn't been done before.

qwerty13

It's got singing and dancing in it.
Terrible lip sync.
Awful, spiteful 2D characters.
Lays on some bloody 'moral' with a trowel.
Stupid guest appearances.
Seems to be the writer's way of belatedly giving the finger to anyone who p*ssed him off in high school.
So many diversity bases covered in such a patronising way that it is like having 20 Tokens.
Cliched, cliched and more cliched.

And mostly because it is the marketing vehicle to get kids to by more music on iTunes.

Tipsy McSwagger

I don't watch it because it is sh#t. Annoying stereotypical kids myming to the latest Lady Ga Ga hit is my idea of hell.

FreudianSlippers

Yakult wrote: »

Never watched the show but dislike that asshat Ryan Murphy.

Although Nip/Tuck was probably one of my favourite shows of all time, I have to totally agree with you.

don ramo

Richard Dower wrote: »

^ regarding your point about why do folks continue to watch?....it still has good moments, i like the musical elements. It's like you want the show to be better because the basic elements are fresh.

but there by far outweiged by the bad, as i said i gave it the benifit of the doubth, i didnt see any signs of improvment from the second half of season 1 and first part of season 2, so as i said i wasnt sticking around long enough for the show to get on my nerves, and dont see any point in doing so,

the show did seem fresh with the teenage pregnancy and bullying aspects they kicked off with, but then quinn dropped and was just accepted back as head of the cheerios and abstinence club, with zero mention of the baby afterwards, and the only real bullying left was kurts, that forced him the transfer (where i stopped watching) there was noting really happening in season 2, the crossdressing coach makes no sense at all, and they are just adding people in for the sake of it, i dyed my hair blonde as i just wanted to fit in, why, that makes no sense,

i think it was on a few saturdays ago on rte and quinn and finn seemed to be back together WTF, i saw that i said WTF and then realised it was things like this that turned me off it, the show had great potential but when it got slight success the execs decided the draw in a few extra million viewers so targeted the family market as usual when they a scent of it,


a few fresh writers and the showrunner growing a pair could make the show good again, hell i could give them some ideas, i cant write but im sure if given a few days i could make up some more realistic storylines than these writers have come up with,

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

KnifeWRENCH wrote: »

The constant overly politically correct "love yourself" messages, an insipid and uninspiring main character like Mr. Schuster, the sensitive subject of homophobia diluted by having an extremely unlikeable and selfish gay character like Kurt......it all just made me cringe. Which is a shame, because great characters like Sue, Brittany, Mr. Ryerson and even Terri (who I always liked but most people hated) that gave the show a darker, wittier edge early on got diluted or lost along the way.

I agree about Kurt. I hated him the first season, and it had nothing to do with the fact that he was gay. He was selfish and a complete cow to everyone. He was absolutely horrible to Rachel for the majority of the first season even though of all the kids there she was the only one who was nice to everyone. He continually tried to force himself on Finn even though it was blatantly obvious that Finn was as straight as they come and extremely uncomfortable with Kurt's attention. The episode where Kurt's dad kicked Finn out was a particular low point as far as Kurt went.
In fairness from what I saw of season 2 they did manage to make Kurt slightly more likable but it still seemed like all Kurt was was a gay kid. But like a few others have pointed out, most of the characters have become one dimensional stereotypes, so it's not surprising that all Kurt is is the gay kid.
I know homophobic bullying is a major problem in the US and kids are killing themselves over it all the time, but I can't help but think that having a strong and confident and nice character, who also happens to be gay, would send a better message to people than just having a stereotypical gay character like Kurt is. In fact I'd go so far as to say that the little bits of Karovsky's storyline that I saw probably did a better job of portraying a teen struggling with their sexuality than all the endless Kurt stuff they push at the audience.

As for the "love yourself" message. I think it does a terrible job of that. They're not saying love yourself as you are, they're saying love yourself if you're different. What about the kids that are just the same as everyone else? What about the kids that just like to play sports, or go to parties, or do nothing? Glee puts across the idea that the talented or individual kids are far better people than the average high schoolers and that those kids who follow trends or stay in their cliques will amount to nothing when they graduate. It gives kids the attitude that if they're weird and out there that they're better than being normal. There's nothing wrong with being either way, if it's who you really are. I think Glee does a terrible job at portraying this.

It's like I said before about the bullying. Plenty of the Glee kids bully others, Santana does it, Lauren does it, and 99% of the Glee kids bullied Rachel all of season 1 and probably still do it in season 2 (I stopped watching). They have one of the Glee kids do something and it's put across as being funny or clever, but when it's done to one of them it's bullying. There should be no distinction. Bullying is bullying.

Richard Dower

^ 110% agree...Karofsky makes a better gay character then kurt. His struggle was far more belivable and realistic, also...it wasn't forced like Kurt. i was accused of homophobia because of the Glee gay agenda....i still stand by that statement.

Forcing the viewer to think and feel a certain way about Kurt turned me off, i don't need Murphy telling me how i should feel, especially when it's very blatant he's forcing the viewer to think a certain way. Also the BIGGEST bully on the show is an ADULT!, a TEACHER!!.....Sue!!

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Richard Dower wrote: »

^ 110% agree...Karofsky makes a better gay character then kurt. His struggle was far more belivable and realistic, also...it wasn't forced like Kurt. i was accused of homophobia because of the Glee gay agenda....i still stand by that statement.

I remember during season 1, when I was a big fan of the show & was posting on a Glee forum, constantly being attacked for saying that Kurt was selfish, or nasty or even just wrong about something. I was called homophobic over and over again. I think the writing of the show is to blame for this. A lot of fans (probably younger ones to be fair) seem to only see Kurt as gay and if you don't like him it must be because he's gay. It's easy to see why some of them have that idea, when everything the character does revolves around him being gay. But it's a horrible idea to take into the real world. These people think they're tolerant and understanding individuals but they don't seem to be able to see that there's more to a person than their sexuality and it's OK to not like someone who's gay when the reasons for not liking them have zero to do with their sexuality. If I was gay I would absolutely detest people who went around defining everything in my life by my sexuality.

Also the BIGGEST bully on the show is an ADULT!, a TEACHER!!.....Sue!!

This is a perfect example. When Sue does something it's hilarious and she's like a comic book villain but if one of the jocks does something it's bullying and wrong. I know Sue isn't meant to be taken seriously but there's so many mixed messages on the show that it's just too much of a mess.

ixoy

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

I remember during season 1, when I was a big fan of the show & was posting on a Glee forum, constantly being attacked for saying that Kurt was selfish, or nasty or even just wrong about something. I was called homophobic over and over again. I think the writing of the show is to blame for this. A lot of fans (probably younger ones to be fair) seem to only see Kurt as gay and if you don't like him it must be because he's gay. It's easy to see why some of them have that idea, when everything the character does revolves around him being gay. But it's a horrible idea to take into the real world. These people think they're tolerant and understanding individuals but they don't seem to be able to see that there's more to a person than their sexuality and it's OK to not like someone who's gay when the reasons for not liking them have zero to do with their sexuality. If I was gay I would absolutely detest people who went around defining everything in my life by my sexuality.

Some people in those threads - and I'm not sure if you were among them - talked about a "gay agenda" and that immediately derails the thread because it's a very loaded phrase, insinuating there's some sort of gay master plan at work. Bollocks.

I don't think anyone ever said though that you couldn't like Kurt - could you point it out to me? He was decent for most of the time in S1 but his prima donna selfish antics in the second season infuriated me at times, as was his reactions to everyone who didn't understand him. I think the show did try and make us understand him but were we always meant to sympathise with him? I didn't, my bf didn't. I'm assuming we weren't because then it was a
major failing...

As to how it defines characters flatly... I'd tend to agree. "Popular" worked by subverting those stereotypes, showing more depth to them. "Glee" started with that - and then stopped. A little bit more depth wouldn't hurt it at all.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

ixoy wrote: »

Some people in those threads - and I'm not sure if you were among them - talked about a "gay agenda" and that immediately derails the thread because it's a very loaded phrase, insinuating there's some sort of gay master plan at work. Bollocks.

I don't think anyone ever said though that you couldn't like Kurt - could you point it out to me? He was decent for most of the time in S1 but his prima donna selfish antics in the second season infuriated me at times, as was his reactions to everyone who didn't understand him. I think the show did try and make us understand him but were we always meant to sympathise with him? I didn't, my bf didn't. I'm assuming we weren't because then it was a
major failing...

I wasn't one of the ones saying there was a "gay agenda". I just think that with the character of Kurt Ryan Murphy is trying to tackle the issue of being a gay teenager and I think he's not doing a great job of it. Or perhaps I should say that based on the reactions of some people on Glee fan sites during the first season, they were missing the point completely.

As for the "not being allowed to dislike Kurt" thing, it was on a glee specific forum and in the episode discussion threads during season 1 if anybody made any reference to Kurt being annoying or selfish or whatever there would be a pile of replies calling that poster homophobic. I'd go so far as to say that none of the criticism of him was directed at his sexuality but there was always large numbers of posters leaping to his defense, who would immediately put the focus on his sexuality.
Now I know you can't judge people by what they do or say on the internet, but it was obvious that a lot of them were of the opinion that you can't call someone out on being selfish or mean or whatever if they're gay. Or they're of the misguided notion that disliking a gay person makes you homophobic even when it's their personality that you don't like.

That's probably gone off the point of this thread a bit, but the point I was trying to make is that the show has perhaps set out to deal with a very serious issue as far as this character is concerned but aren't doing it very well.