Students & College Fees - Who Should Pay?

Sky King · 03-06-2011 04:49PM

Chuck while I agree about the 'hobby degrees' to a point I still don't see them as totally useless.

I believe Arts courses should be the sole preserve of people with a specific aptitude or interest in it, and not just something people do to pass the time or because they don't want to make a life-changining career move at age 18.

Fewer places and stricter entry requirements would sort that out fairly simply.

Art and culture is vital for a civilised society. I believe people should have the right to be educated in History, Philosophy, Music, but I believe that those who are not worthy of recieving it from the state (i.e. the best and brightest) should have to pay for it.

And I'm an engineer, and we're supposed to 'hate' arts :rolleyes:

Duffy the Vampire Slayer · 03-06-2011 04:50PM

A lot of people successful in areas other than academia have degrees in subjects such as those you have outlined.

Herb Powell · 03-06-2011 04:52PM

Chuck Stone wrote: »

1. There's no such thing as free.

2. Govenments do not have money - they get our money.

3. Universities do a lot of what I'd describe as 'hobby degrees' which are nothing but a waste of money and a way of giving people jobs in Universities - why should taxpayers fund this shite?

Examples:

Philosophy
History
Literature
Horticulture
Music
Art History
Communications
Dance (LOL)
Latin
Theater.

Cut the fat off universities and cut the salaries of €100,000+ PA lecturers who work 6 months a year.

I would have thought that one was relatively practical? Never looked into what they actually do, but still, growing enough food to sustain the world's population is one of the big challenges of the future

Lockstep · 03-06-2011 04:55PM

Question to all those saying that students and parents should pay: do you want to end all government subsidies to the university sector?

I can see some merit to students contributing to their education (say, €2-3k pa) but expecting them to completely cover the costs of their degrees isn't something I'd be comfortable with. International students pay €12k+ a year, expecting Irish students to pay something like this (ie; without subsidies) seems excessive.

I'd be fairly worried about a US style system which prices the middle class out of the market.

The Irish system isn't too out of kilter with other European countries either (undergrad and post grad fees in Belgium are €560, and €1700~ in the Netherlands) Whether we can afford this is another matter.

Herb Powell · 03-06-2011 04:58PM

OSI wrote: »

Horticulture teaches you how to spend €2.5 Million building a big pink hanging basket. Definitely a degree we don't need any more of.

Ok, then yeah that's wasteful. Wasn't even really sure what the actual degree course involved, just horticulture itself

03-06-2011 05:13PM

Chuck Stone wrote: »

3. Universities do a lot of what I'd describe as 'hobby degrees' which are nothing but a waste of money and a way of giving people jobs in Universities - why should taxpayers fund this shite?

Examples:

Horticulture

Cut the fat off universities and cut the salaries of €100,000+ PA lecturers who work 6 months a year.

Horticulture is a very practical thing to do. People with Horticulture degrees find work in things like landscape gardening and a multiple other related fields.

A friend of mine did Horticulture and has a good job advising places like golf courses and other places with large grounds what treatments they need to use or solving problems with diseases in plants. Also advising hardware stores etc what they should give customers for there various problems with plants, grass etc.

Hardly a waste of a degree.

Don't even get me started on that nonsense of lecturers working 6 months a year, lecturers work right through the summer just like everyone else, teaching is only a small part of their job, supervising research students, doing their own research and the endless search for funding takes up a lot of time and effort. Along with spending much longer in university to gain their qualification their salarys are well earned.

Also if they drop the salarys people wont lecture as they will work in industry and get paid much more. Which will result in a drop in the quality of lecturing as you wont have anywhere near the best people working in universities.

Chuck Stone · 03-06-2011 05:36PM

Rubbish.

Where are people who lecture in sociology or history or philosophy going to get jobs?

Chuck Stone · 03-06-2011 05:40PM

Duffy the Vampire Slayer wrote: »

A lot of people successful in areas other than academia have degrees in subjects such as those you have outlined.

Exactly.

Total waste of money.

Balmed Out · 03-06-2011 05:47PM

Lockstep wrote: »

Question to all those saying that students and parents should pay: do you want to end all government subsidies to the university sector?

I can see some merit to students contributing to their education (say, €2-3k pa) but expecting them to completely cover the costs of their degrees isn't something I'd be comfortable with. International students pay €12k+ a year, expecting Irish students to pay something like this (ie; without subsidies) seems excessive.

I'd be fairly worried about a US style system which prices the middle class out of the market.

The Irish system isn't too out of kilter with other European countries either (undergrad and post grad fees in Belgium are €560, and €1700~ in the Netherlands) Whether we can afford this is another matter.

Each year x numbers of free education positions for the expected needs of the economy. If we expect good times we employ more lecturers etc, less then less. Any demand for other positions funded purely by the students / parents.

The economy does not and has never needed the majority to go to college. Its a privelige and not a right.

We are paying far too much for it and its ridiculous having people studying things hat will never benefit the economy and paid for by the taxpayer.

theboss80 · 03-06-2011 06:03PM

I really dont know where people expect students to get 2-3k a year to pay fees, there are no part time jobs going. Get real.

The colleges and I.T's should be doing just the courses that provide relevant degree qualifications aimed at to companies looking to invest in this country. ie engineering and IT. And possibly if people want to do degrees as outlined before which might not directly influence an upturn in the economy then they could be charged more. After all if someone does an arts degree and goes on to be a novelist they end up paying no tax, hows that fair?

On a lighter note : What has two more goals than an Arts student? A soccer pitch

I lost my job(construction) in the downturn and am now getting ready to start my 3rd yr in college, if I had to pay 2-3k in fees I wouldn't be in college as I simply could not afford to do that.

MagicSean · 03-06-2011 06:22PM

Students should pay the first years fees and the registration fee should be scrapped. If a person succeeds in their first year and continues in the program then the governement should pay for the rest or pay a large proportion of it. Save a lot of money not having to pay for wasters who drop out after a year of booze.

There should be a government loan scheme set up to ensure they have access to the funds with no interest until they have graduated.

steddyeddy · 03-06-2011 06:59PM

Students and their parents should pay were they can but at all costs students with the academic ability who cant afford to pay should be payed for by the state. Where the state cant pay there should be a tax on the wealthy which affords financial assistance to those who can afford it.

The last thing we need in society is college becoming a playground exclusively for those who are entirely dependent on their mother or father through direct handouts and/or fee paying. Having a large number of people from one socioeconomic group, in the case of the above example those supported by parents does not necessarily ensure the best graduates. To ensure the best and brightest graduate we need to maximise the amount we take from all socioeconomic groups.

aperture_nuig · 03-06-2011 07:11PM

In my opinion (as a student entering 4th year of my course) a grants/subsidy system should be put into effect where the amount received is considered a loan at the start of the year, and should a person p*ss it all away and fail/drop out they should be expected to pay it back.

Getting rid of grants/financial asisstance altogether is lunacy. I wouldn't have been able to finish my course without the grant as my parents both lost their jobs.

Saila · 03-06-2011 07:17PM

If and when they decide this they need to give 3-5 years notice, so that anyone wanting to go to college knows before doing their leaving that they will have to pay if they get in, and also give a chance for the ones who have already made a commitment to degrees and who are already in college a chance to finish without paying fees.

RussellTuring · 03-06-2011 07:22PM

OSI wrote: »

The government doesn't provide the education. What is effectively a private business does. And up until now the government has largely been fronting the cost for it. The question isn't why should you be paying more, but why should the government be paying for you.

Taking your argument to its logical conclusion, since when do taxpayers have to fund private businesses?

The third level institutions receive hundreds of millions of euros from us every year. Threaten to take this away and see how long it is before they stop haemorrhaging money while charging colossal fees. As it is, we're effectively giving them free money while letting them charge what they want to use their service.

steddyeddy · 03-06-2011 07:26PM

Balmed Out wrote: »

Each year x numbers of free education positions for the expected needs of the economy. If we expect good times we employ more lecturers etc, less then less. Any demand for other positions funded purely by the students / parents.

The economy does not and has never needed the majority to go to college. Its a privelige and not a right.

We are paying far too much for it and its ridiculous having people studying things hat will never benefit the economy and paid for by the taxpayer.

That privelige should only be based on academic ability!

Holysock · 03-06-2011 08:09PM

fabbydabby wrote: »

At the moment, the fee is around what, 1,500? 2,000?

I think that's the registration fee, which is paid by anyone who's not on the grant. The college fees are about 5000 a year and paid by the government for a students first undergraduate course.

johnmcdnl · 03-06-2011 08:21PM

Balmed Out wrote: »

The economy does not and has never needed the majority to go to college. Its a privelige and not a right.

so only the people with rich mammy's and daddy's should be allowed keep the jobs that need a college degree??? and then 20-30 years from now the children of these children will go to college because they're still the only ones that can afford to go to college... sounds fair alright..

profitius · 03-06-2011 09:33PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VpZtX32sKVE

up for anything · 03-06-2011 09:39PM

I came across this earlier today.

Student debt is now larger than credit card debt in the US. It is the US Government itself that has made college education so expensive by offering student loans to anyone who can fog a mirror but again they have shown their intentions by making student loan debt the only debt which can not be forgiven. A 2005 decree from the Bush Administration stated that student loan debt could not be dissolved through bankruptcy proceedings. The only other scenario where this “no-escape” clause exists is debt from criminal acts and debt from fraud. In other words, student loan debt is seen, by the US Government, as being similar to proceeds from crime!

tatabubbly · 03-06-2011 09:46PM

In my opinion, students should pay more towards their education in third level.

I have a degree and paid to do my masters in the north. Because i paid fees in the north, I work harder cos i had to earn that €4000 to do the course.

Grants should only be made available to those who truly need it. I know if i didn't have mine, no way could i have even thought about college, let alone pay for it.
Those living off mammy and daddy and still getting their hair done in peter marks as a student getting a grant should be mortified.

Wolfe Tone · 03-06-2011 09:49PM

What does a student do if he:

Can't get a job
His parents work but refuse to pay/can't pay

And the level of income his parents get/their savings mean that he doesn't qualify for a grant?

Is he fcuked?

previous user · 03-06-2011 09:50PM

Who needs college theres no jobs anyway.

Naikon · 03-06-2011 09:54PM

College is becoming a bit of a money racket these days. We don't want to end up in a situation similar the states, where grads are paying upwards of 80k or more for bull3hit courses like sociology or Surf studies. Lets not forget "Davaid Beckham studies". Yeah, that is really going to stretch the mind. Propogating the myth that everyone and their mother needs a degree is not good in the long run. I have seen jobs that would not actually require a degree for the tasks advertised. It's a filter.

Honestly, I don't think tax payers should be subsidising college for the masses. Grants should be available to those that are very academically inclined or can benefit most. College should only cater to those that can produce original research. 99% of the population is probably not cut out for "real" academic work. Like sociology? Go to a library and get a book FFS. You don't have to pay upwards of 6k a year to do that.

I don't agree that college is a waste of time. It's just we need to stop convincing every man in the street it's their ticket to success. It's a supporting factor. You don't hire a degree.

elefant · 03-06-2011 10:34PM

I agree with the poster who said there are too many college places. The amazing increase in use of the library at exam times (in NUIG at any rate) in the week or two before exams is an eye-opener. Being a student should be a full-time privilege, not a two week memory test. A large percentage of students wouldn't see the inside of the library outside of 2 weeks at Christmas and Summer.

I don't know exactly how it could be done, but I'd like to see a situation where only students who deserve the taxpayers' money (because they will actually benefit the state by the knowledge they gain through hard work and natural ability) get subsidised education. This isn't making a college degree for the rich, although perhaps it is making a college degree elitist. Someone who scrapes a pass by compensation in an Arts degree doing Archaeology and Classics is a waste of time and money. Someone that gets a first class honour in, I don't know, Quantum Physics (or even an Arts degree in Archaeology and Classics for that matter), clearly isn't.

In summary, get rid of the wasters and put the money into people who deserve it. If you're not intelligent enough to benefit from this the you're not cut out for academics so college isn't for you anyway. Maybe that's harsh, but that's what I think.

Phill Ewinn · 03-06-2011 11:32PM

People aren't going to agree with each other on this thread. Colleges are playing every side on this and winning two fold. Getting money from state and student alike. What we do need is affordable third level education for the majority of people. I got by doing a degree course at night. I suspect many more people could also if it was cheap and they could work regular hours (if recession lets you)

Gary4279 · 03-06-2011 11:42PM

Why do people constantly assume that its only 18 year old that get subsidised education. There are more matures now than ever before.

Also many students pay taxes myself included and pay their own registration fees.

Conor_M1990 · 03-06-2011 11:49PM

Thinking out loud here but would this system work that I just came up with in here. cut the number of courses with no numbers/low numbers cut the number of courses where theres an oversupply of grads and cut the number of courses which are complete bollix. Bring in an Internship which works like an apprenticeship but do with across the board business science etc. Have a flat fee of about a 1000 euro across the board no matter who you are everyone has to pay it. scrap grants btea unless you are seriously underprevilaged and bring in a loan system that anyone cant avial of which you pay back once you are earning a certain amount.

Bottle_of_Smoke · 04-06-2011 12:19AM

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

What does a student do if he:

Can't get a job
His parents work but refuse to pay/can't pay

And the level of income his parents get/their savings mean that he doesn't qualify for a grant?

Is he fcuked?

Yeah. Pretty much. In a similar situation myself. Parents have too high an income but they also have large outgoings(mortgage). Grant office don't take that into account.

People will say "why don't they sell the house?" Sort of an irrelevant question seeing as I have no control over that decision

IMHO the tradition of parents paying for college needs to be destroyed. We should be seen as independent adults. Everyone entitled to student grants or loans at any age.

If loans were neccesary they would only be repayable on graduation after the graduate is earning a decent wage. If travelling or lose job the loan goes on hold. Interest repayments would be linked to inflation so not for profit.

daedal · 04-06-2011 12:35AM

Student fees should be paid by farce/failed politicians and bankers! They should be forcibly made to donate their life savings to student fees as they didn't deserve their baloney salary in the first place. Fuck Ireland i give up!! why cant you sheeple get your head out of your ass and stand up for your rights and beliefs??

Students & College Fees - Who Should Pay?

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