Students & College Fees - Who Should Pay?

Lord Trollington

I see this whole issue is raring it's ugly head again.

The union of Students of Ireland said that "all hell will break loose" if they introduce fees for students in future.

So who should pay?

The country is broke to point that they cannot even sustain essential hospital services?

Should we be paying to put people through college,some of which wont make it past first year and are only there for the drink and a good time?

orourkeda

students should pay. preferably

ejmaztec

I think that the European Central Bank should pay for all third-level education throughout the EU, as it's in the EUs interest to have as many smart-arses as possible so that we can compete better with other economic power-houses of the world.

PrincessLola

Not this thread again :mad:

Look its a complicated question, ok. There is no doubt that the students/ parents should pay for their own education, but on the otherhand college graduates on average earn more and tend to go on to pay the most tax anyway so they do contribute more eventually, so its not exactly black and white.
For students of lower socio-economic backrounds there should be grants (and I think there are) but the key to get them into college is more then money, they need to be told they have evry right to go to third level as the middle class kids.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

Subsidised is the way to go in my opinion. If they keep increasing the fees, which they have been doing ever since I have been in college, it will not be fair on those who cannot afford to pay for college. The access to further education should not be limited to those who have money. It will separate the gap between the rich and poor even further. That's not what we want.

brummytom

Personally, I think it's incredibly unfair that politicians who got through their university educations from taxes are now the ones making us pay up to £9k a year. It's just pricing the poorer out of a decent education.

jme2010

orourkeda wrote: »

students should pay. preferably

How can a student possibly pay €1.5K themselves?

Tauriel

As a college student, I am struggling to pay for college. I have no part time job (which I've handed in CVs everywhere) and I am not getting any financial assistence from my parents.

What annoys me is that I am getting the bear minimum grant which is not enough to cover books and transport, there are people in my class that are getting the full grant that are failing subjects like I don't know what and their mommy and daddy tends to be some big sh!t with their own successful businesses.

I think those that can afford college should pay and those that aren't working very hard.

Gophur

You're 18 and want a mortgage? You get the mortgage and nobody but you is expected to pay for it.

You can get married, you can get a driving licence and be let loose on the road, and nobody but you is expected to pay for it.

Why then, if you want to go to college, is/are
1. Your parents expected to pay for it?
and
2. Your parents' income(s) taken into account if you are applying for financial assistance?


Why, in every aspect of life, is someone over 18 determined to be an individual, except when it comes to Third level fees?

melb

Students and parents. Bring in the loan system. Best solution for all.

jdooley28

Right.

If peoples parents can pay and want to pay, then its mad not let them do so. This shouldn't exclude others from a third level education.

A student loan scheme is needed where students pay back money after they graduate or if they prefer they can pay fees up front that way everyone has a chance.

The amount of fees should be based on what exam results the student gets.

Tauriel

With a bloody job.[/QUOTE]

Where are these jobs you talk about? If qualified people can't get jobs do you honestly think unqualified students can?

Mickeroo

I've been shafted with fees in college the last 3 years and I don't get a grant of the back to education allowance. If someone genuinely can't afford the fees then they should be covered by the state on the other hand considering the extortionate fees people pay in other countries like the UK and US I think there is a little bit too much complaining from some quaters not to mention education is a luxury not a virtue so if the country can't afford to run itself why should it be given out for free.

Just to set the record straight, I'm against fees but I feel the issue is not as black and white as its made out to be sometimes.

whydoibother?

Let students pay for their education, but have proper student loan schemes in place, like other countries, where they don't have to start paying back until their earnings reach a certain level. In the current climate, going to private banks for loans is unreasonably risky, given that it is so unclear whether they will earn immediately on graduating or not.

Also, have clear divisions within universities on the cost of educating students v. the cost of research. Let them pay for themselves, but not research. Industry should pay for that. Industry benefits.

fabbydabby

At the moment, the fee is around what, 1,500? 2,000?

Instead of increasing this, why not just drastically reduce the number of college places to match the available budget and keep it cheap? And also stop paying for bollocks courses like women's studies. or whatever.

That means that poor kids who are smart will still get a college education, rich kids who are dense will have their parents pay for it because they won't make the cut and poor kids who are dense will remain in Texaco pumping my gas.

An overly simplistic yet brilliant solution.

Tauriel

If you want students to pay more for their education then the quality of lecturers badly need to be improved as the fee of 2000 at the mo is too much for the lack of quality education that is been given.

In addition, my college looks like a complete sh!t hole and doesn't even have heating in the winter months and classes are overcrowded.

Also as the likes of TCD, UCD and UCC like it to be known that the are the top universities in Ireland, I think it is unfair to ask students of ITs to pay the same as them when their degrees are not considered by industry to be equal

Mickeroo

mustang shelly wrote: »

Also as the likes of TCD, UCD and UCC like it to be known that the are the top universities in Ireland, I think it is unfair to ask students of ITs to pay the same as them when their degrees are not considered by industry to be equal

Pretty sure their fees are higher than IT's.

melb

melb wrote: »

Bring in the loan system. Best solution for all.

Graduating with the burden of a massive loan to pay of, great solution alright :rolleyes:

Schism

mustang shelly wrote: »

Where are these jobs you talk about? If qualified people can't get jobs do you honestly think unqualified students can?

Unqualified students are more likely to get what menial jobs there are available. From an employers point of view they're less likely to leave than someone with a degree who's going to jump ship the minute they get a job in their field.

Oranage2

Now that i'm a recent graduate I think that student should pay - they have enough money to rent and get hammered every weekend they sure as hell can afford 3k.

I agree with a ong term loan situation -

say it cost students 3k a year in college - well when they graduate have them pay back the loan -

Tauriel

Mickeroo wrote: »

Pretty sure their fees are higher than IT's.

Sorry I thought I read somewhere that UCC anyway is the same cost as CIT.

I wouldn't mind paying fees if the Government could guarentee me that I would get the career I want with a good salary and promotional prospects after graduating but in reality I'm gonna have to find approx 15,000-20,000 to do a masters when I'm finished my degree and then either join the dole queue (which I really want to avoid) or leave the country

sock puppet

mustang shelly wrote: »

I wouldn't mind paying fees if the Government could guarentee me that I would get the career I want with a good salary and promotional prospects after graduating

Ah in fairness I'm a student and pretty much no one I know expects this. The opportunity to go and attain those things yes but there's no way to guarantee someone a good job.

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

fabbydabby wrote: »

That means that poor kids who are smart will still get a college education, rich kids who are dense will have their parents pay for it because they won't make the cut and poor kids who are dense will remain in Texaco pumping my gas.

An overly simplistic yet brilliant solution.

Keeping education in the hands of the rich? Yes thats just what the country needs.

mcjagger

i dunno, i think the universities are making alot of money from us taxpayers anyway whether students are graduating or not. seems like a pretty big waste if we're spending money on students who have to emigrate. theres no sense in that

Tauriel

sock puppet wrote: »

Ah in fairness I'm a student and pretty much no one I know expects this.

And my point being why pay more for something that is never gonna happen. Why should students be punished for the mistakes of our politicians and bankers? An increase in student fees needs to be justified and I am not seeing any reasonable explanations for why I should pay more when at the end of the day I will have a degree but no job to show for my hard work in college

Hank_Jones

fabbydabby wrote: »

At the moment, the fee is around what, 1,500? 2,000?

Instead of increasing this, why not just drastically reduce the number of college places to match the available budget and keep it cheap? And also stop paying for bollocks courses like women's studies. or whatever.

That means that poor kids who are smart will still get a college education, rich kids who are dense will have their parents pay for it because they won't make the cut and poor kids who are dense will remain in Texaco pumping my gas.

An overly simplistic yet brilliant solution.

This could actually be a solution.

I started college and thought that everyone would be like me and want to work hard and get on...that certainly wasn't how it worked out.
Large amount of wasters in college and a large number of them are probably getting grants.

Should filter out the dead wood, or else make courses so tough that anyone with less than half a brain will have to drop out soon enough.

Mr Benevolent

Loan system.

Tauriel

Hank_Jones wrote:

I started college and thought that everyone would be like me and want to work hard and get on...that certainly wasn't how it worked out.
Large amount of wasters in college and a large number of them are probably getting grants.

Should filter out the dead wood, or else make courses so tough that anyone with less than half a brain will have to drop out soon enough.

Finally someone talking sense and I would agree 100% with what you have posted

Tauriel

OSI wrote: »

The question isn't why should you be paying more, but why should the government be paying for you.

Because they are the people going on about how they want Ireland to become a knowledge economy. To show that they are serious they need to invest in what they have said otherwise we are never gonna get out of the mess they got us in

Hank_Jones

I get rather annoyed with this sort of stuff though....personally, I lost my job due to the economy.
I stayed off the dole in the hope of getting another job, got one, economy again, no job, went onto the dole.
Government says to retrain, no prospects in what I was doing previously, so why not, was getting irritated with the lack of opportunities anyway...

Go back to college and am then fcuked over again by the government.

I work and pay my college fees and struggle doing this.

Chuck Stone

1. There's no such thing as free.

2. Govenments do not have money - they get our money.

3. Universities do a lot of what I'd describe as 'hobby degrees' which are nothing but a waste of money and a way of giving people jobs in Universities - why should taxpayers fund this shite?

Examples:

Philosophy
History
Literature
Horticulture
Music
Art History
Communications
Dance (LOL)
Latin
Theater.

Cut the fat off universities and cut the salaries of €100,000+ PA lecturers who work 6 months a year.

Sky King

Chuck while I agree about the 'hobby degrees' to a point I still don't see them as totally useless.

I believe Arts courses should be the sole preserve of people with a specific aptitude or interest in it, and not just something people do to pass the time or because they don't want to make a life-changining career move at age 18.

Fewer places and stricter entry requirements would sort that out fairly simply.

Art and culture is vital for a civilised society. I believe people should have the right to be educated in History, Philosophy, Music, but I believe that those who are not worthy of recieving it from the state (i.e. the best and brightest) should have to pay for it.

And I'm an engineer, and we're supposed to 'hate' arts :rolleyes:

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

A lot of people successful in areas other than academia have degrees in subjects such as those you have outlined.

Herb Powell

Chuck Stone wrote: »

1. There's no such thing as free.

2. Govenments do not have money - they get our money.

3. Universities do a lot of what I'd describe as 'hobby degrees' which are nothing but a waste of money and a way of giving people jobs in Universities - why should taxpayers fund this shite?

Examples:

Philosophy
History
Literature
Horticulture
Music
Art History
Communications
Dance (LOL)
Latin
Theater.

Cut the fat off universities and cut the salaries of €100,000+ PA lecturers who work 6 months a year.

I would have thought that one was relatively practical? Never looked into what they actually do, but still, growing enough food to sustain the world's population is one of the big challenges of the future

Lockstep

Question to all those saying that students and parents should pay: do you want to end all government subsidies to the university sector?

I can see some merit to students contributing to their education (say, €2-3k pa) but expecting them to completely cover the costs of their degrees isn't something I'd be comfortable with. International students pay €12k+ a year, expecting Irish students to pay something like this (ie; without subsidies) seems excessive.

I'd be fairly worried about a US style system which prices the middle class out of the market.

The Irish system isn't too out of kilter with other European countries either (undergrad and post grad fees in Belgium are €560, and €1700~ in the Netherlands) Whether we can afford this is another matter.

Herb Powell

OSI wrote: »

Horticulture teaches you how to spend €2.5 Million building a big pink hanging basket. Definitely a degree we don't need any more of.

Ok, then yeah that's wasteful. Wasn't even really sure what the actual degree course involved, just horticulture itself

Chuck Stone

Chuck Stone wrote: »

3. Universities do a lot of what I'd describe as 'hobby degrees' which are nothing but a waste of money and a way of giving people jobs in Universities - why should taxpayers fund this shite?

Examples:


Horticulture


Cut the fat off universities and cut the salaries of €100,000+ PA lecturers who work 6 months a year.

Horticulture is a very practical thing to do. People with Horticulture degrees find work in things like landscape gardening and a multiple other related fields.

A friend of mine did Horticulture and has a good job advising places like golf courses and other places with large grounds what treatments they need to use or solving problems with diseases in plants. Also advising hardware stores etc what they should give customers for there various problems with plants, grass etc.

Hardly a waste of a degree.

Don't even get me started on that nonsense of lecturers working 6 months a year, lecturers work right through the summer just like everyone else, teaching is only a small part of their job, supervising research students, doing their own research and the endless search for funding takes up a lot of time and effort. Along with spending much longer in university to gain their qualification their salarys are well earned.

Also if they drop the salarys people wont lecture as they will work in industry and get paid much more. Which will result in a drop in the quality of lecturing as you wont have anywhere near the best people working in universities.

Chuck Stone

Rubbish.

Where are people who lecture in sociology or history or philosophy going to get jobs?

Chuck Stone

Duffy the Vampire Slayer wrote: »

A lot of people successful in areas other than academia have degrees in subjects such as those you have outlined.

Exactly.

Total waste of money.

Balmed Out

Lockstep wrote: »

Question to all those saying that students and parents should pay: do you want to end all government subsidies to the university sector?

I can see some merit to students contributing to their education (say, €2-3k pa) but expecting them to completely cover the costs of their degrees isn't something I'd be comfortable with. International students pay €12k+ a year, expecting Irish students to pay something like this (ie; without subsidies) seems excessive.

I'd be fairly worried about a US style system which prices the middle class out of the market.

The Irish system isn't too out of kilter with other European countries either (undergrad and post grad fees in Belgium are €560, and €1700~ in the Netherlands) Whether we can afford this is another matter.

Each year x numbers of free education positions for the expected needs of the economy. If we expect good times we employ more lecturers etc, less then less. Any demand for other positions funded purely by the students / parents.

The economy does not and has never needed the majority to go to college. Its a privelige and not a right.

We are paying far too much for it and its ridiculous having people studying things hat will never benefit the economy and paid for by the taxpayer.

theboss80

I really dont know where people expect students to get 2-3k a year to pay fees, there are no part time jobs going. Get real.

The colleges and I.T's should be doing just the courses that provide relevant degree qualifications aimed at to companies looking to invest in this country. ie engineering and IT. And possibly if people want to do degrees as outlined before which might not directly influence an upturn in the economy then they could be charged more. After all if someone does an arts degree and goes on to be a novelist they end up paying no tax, hows that fair?

On a lighter note : What has two more goals than an Arts student? A soccer pitch

I lost my job(construction) in the downturn and am now getting ready to start my 3rd yr in college, if I had to pay 2-3k in fees I wouldn't be in college as I simply could not afford to do that.

MagicSean

Students should pay the first years fees and the registration fee should be scrapped. If a person succeeds in their first year and continues in the program then the governement should pay for the rest or pay a large proportion of it. Save a lot of money not having to pay for wasters who drop out after a year of booze.

There should be a government loan scheme set up to ensure they have access to the funds with no interest until they have graduated.

steddyeddy

Students and their parents should pay were they can but at all costs students with the academic ability who cant afford to pay should be payed for by the state. Where the state cant pay there should be a tax on the wealthy which affords financial assistance to those who can afford it.

The last thing we need in society is college becoming a playground exclusively for those who are entirely dependent on their mother or father through direct handouts and/or fee paying. Having a large number of people from one socioeconomic group, in the case of the above example those supported by parents does not necessarily ensure the best graduates. To ensure the best and brightest graduate we need to maximise the amount we take from all socioeconomic groups.

aperture_nuig

In my opinion (as a student entering 4th year of my course) a grants/subsidy system should be put into effect where the amount received is considered a loan at the start of the year, and should a person p*ss it all away and fail/drop out they should be expected to pay it back.

Getting rid of grants/financial asisstance altogether is lunacy. I wouldn't have been able to finish my course without the grant as my parents both lost their jobs.

Saila

If and when they decide this they need to give 3-5 years notice, so that anyone wanting to go to college knows before doing their leaving that they will have to pay if they get in, and also give a chance for the ones who have already made a commitment to degrees and who are already in college a chance to finish without paying fees.

RussellTuring

OSI wrote: »

The government doesn't provide the education. What is effectively a private business does. And up until now the government has largely been fronting the cost for it. The question isn't why should you be paying more, but why should the government be paying for you.

Taking your argument to its logical conclusion, since when do taxpayers have to fund private businesses?

The third level institutions receive hundreds of millions of euros from us every year. Threaten to take this away and see how long it is before they stop haemorrhaging money while charging colossal fees. As it is, we're effectively giving them free money while letting them charge what they want to use their service.

steddyeddy

Balmed Out wrote: »

Each year x numbers of free education positions for the expected needs of the economy. If we expect good times we employ more lecturers etc, less then less. Any demand for other positions funded purely by the students / parents.

The economy does not and has never needed the majority to go to college. Its a privelige and not a right.

We are paying far too much for it and its ridiculous having people studying things hat will never benefit the economy and paid for by the taxpayer.

That privelige should only be based on academic ability!

Holysock

fabbydabby wrote: »

At the moment, the fee is around what, 1,500? 2,000?

I think that's the registration fee, which is paid by anyone who's not on the grant. The college fees are about 5000 a year and paid by the government for a students first undergraduate course.

johnmcdnl

Balmed Out wrote: »

The economy does not and has never needed the majority to go to college. Its a privelige and not a right.

so only the people with rich mammy's and daddy's should be allowed keep the jobs that need a college degree??? and then 20-30 years from now the children of these children will go to college because they're still the only ones that can afford to go to college... sounds fair alright..

profitius

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VpZtX32sKVE

up for anything

I came across this earlier today.

Student debt is now larger than credit card debt in the US. It is the US Government itself that has made college education so expensive by offering student loans to anyone who can fog a mirror but again they have shown their intentions by making student loan debt the only debt which can not be forgiven. A 2005 decree from the Bush Administration stated that student loan debt could not be dissolved through bankruptcy proceedings. The only other scenario where this “no-escape” clause exists is debt from criminal acts and debt from fraud. In other words, student loan debt is seen, by the US Government, as being similar to proceeds from crime!