Interviews with British target shooters

It wasn't me! · 02-06-2011 01:04PM

I did a budget a while back for what someone looking to transition from developmental level shooting (MQS levelish) to international (Top 20s in WC level on a regular basis) would have to be doing in prone rifle. I think it came in around €19k a year for everything: Ammo, kit replacements and upgrades, travel and so forth. I think that was based on all of the world level competitions a year, every high level ISSF shoot in the UK and Ireland and the IoM and as many Grand Prix type events on the continent as possible: Hannover, Plzen and so forth. Maybe a training camp as well. Think the budget was for about twelve thousand rounds of ammo as well. Basically, crazy expensive, but the only way to get good at shooting in big venues with big attendances and high level shooters is to do it, all the time, and to train well, a lot. That's hard to do. Even if a good developmental shooter could get 10k, that would be a massive increase, but currently they'd be looking at getting 3k for that, which means coughing up nearly twice as much of your own cash.

Bananaman · 02-06-2011 01:35PM

Is it verbotten to have a job and do this?

The top athletes in the GAA all have jobs - go to work of a Monday - train in the evenings - finish work on a Friday and compete most weekends all year round - including frequently throwing multiple 100km journeys a week into the mix.

And these guys - in this day and age - are top athletes.

19K is nothing to sneeze at but if you are working to fund your competition it is very do-able.

B'Man

demonloop · 02-06-2011 01:47PM

Bananaman wrote: »

Is it verbotten to have a job and do this?

The top athletes in the GAA all have jobs - go to work of a Monday - train in the evenings - finish work on a Friday and compete most weekends all year round - including frequently throwing multiple 100km journeys a week into the mix.

And these guys - in this day and age - are top athletes.

19K is nothing to sneeze at but if you are working to fund your competition it is very do-able.

B'Man

Shooting, unlike GAA, is an international sport. They do travel around the county, and country if they make the county team, but they don't travel internationally to compete.

Also the equipment, boots aside, is supplied by the club/county.

Its comparing apples and pears to be honest.

They also get fuel expenses for travelling, and a scheme where they get paid a wage if they get injured playing.

They have the sort of money we can only dream of.

It wasn't me! · 02-06-2011 01:47PM

Bananaman wrote: »

Is it verbotten to have a job and do this?

The top athletes in the GAA all have jobs - go to work of a Monday - train in the evenings - finish work on a Friday and compete most weekends all year round - including frequently throwing multiple 100km journeys a week into the mix.

And these guys - in this day and age - are top athletes.

19K is nothing to sneeze at but if you are working to fund your competition it is very do-able.

B'Man

It's doable, if you don't have a family to support and a mortgage to pay, but those are decisions to be made by individual athletes, and they're not easy decisions. Average industrial wage is somewhere around the 32k mark. Spending two thirds of that a year on your hobby alone is pretty extreme. Frankly, most athletes abroad have jobs which effectively direct their training. in addition, you need a job that gives you time to train. You can't be competitive without putting in five or six days a week, four or five hours a day, minimum, and to really succeed, you pretty much need to do it full time. Jobs really are the hard part.

Sparks · 02-06-2011 01:57PM

Bananaman wrote: »

Is it verbotten to have a job and do this?
The top athletes in the GAA all have jobs

There are a few differences though:

Most GAA athletes aren't married with kids - most target shooters are;
Most GAA athletes finish with their sport in their 20s - most target shooters don't really get going until that point (and in Ireland, can't even until start an age where GAA athletes are already competing nationally) - which means that target shooters are worrying about mortgages, school fees, pensions, and a dozen other things that a 20-something-year-old doesn't have on their radar.
Most GAA athletes don't have to spend upwards of a grand for every away match
Most GAA athletes don't have to spend around €1500 on their football clothes or up to €6000 on thier other football kit
Most GAA athletes have a club within a few miles of home, that doesn't have to pay thousands in licences and tens of thousands in construction costs to come up to code
Most GAA athletes don't have to have licences to play
Absolutely no GAA athletes face the technical level or depth of competition that you see in international ISSF shooting. Ever. Not even close.

I'm not saying that they're not hard-working people or that it's easy for them or anything so ridiculous - but you really are comparing chalk and cheese here B'man.

Bananaman · 02-06-2011 02:09PM

It wasn't me! wrote: »

It's doable, ....... to really succeed, you pretty much need to do it full time. Jobs really are the hard part.

I know - but they are the reality - the money will not come from anywhere else but your own arse pocket - the ISC may throw a few scraps from the table - doubtful - but in theory it could happen - at which point a whole pack of dogs will tear each other apart going for it - and even if you were to get ALL of it - it would still not amount to a hill of beans.

Like you said - if you really want to get on in this sport (or any other) you have to make sacrifices.

If you have a job you have to give up all your personal time to train.
If you have a family - they have to put up with that - or not.

(if you don't have a job you wont be able to afford to train - so not really an option)

Much like I had to give up playing football and hurling when I started working (This software lark back in 1990 really did involve 72 hour shifts at the keyboard and weekends is when you did backups - lotsa qic-120s) - I moved on and did something else (Softball/Tag Rugby) - that also fell by the wayside as deadlines got in the way of scheduled matches - and I took up something else - target shooting - and it stuck as I could do it whenever I was available.

Back when we were allowed to do IPSC I was starting to get good at it - I put many tonnes of lead downrange in practice and many hours dry fire practice a week - I travelled to an international a few times a year - admittedly 'near' internationals in Europe but still €500 for the weekend - with ammo and entry fees on top of that.

Our "betters" put an end to that - but the kids would have limited it anyway.

Time is an issue - I give a good twelve months notice for an 'away' match these days - but whatever 'spare', 'discretionary' spend that was there - was gone.

As usual the "irish solution" to the "irish problem" means I am totally screwed now as I have to travel abroad to practice - which means I get feck all of that anymore and will gradually be useless at it in a short while.

So count your blessings - if you get yourself a few bob - you can train - when you have some free time - and if you're good enough - and work allows it - you can go to the Internationals - and if your good enough you could win a few medals - then go to the ISC who will pay for your baseball cap - and then the weekend is over and you go back to work.

But at least you can do it.

B'Man

Sparks · 02-06-2011 02:13PM

Sparks wrote: »

Absolutely no GAA athletes face the technical level or depth of competition that you see in international ISSF shooting. Ever. Not even close.

Let me just expand on that (because I don't think anyone outside of the NTSA/ICPSA circle really understands it). Look at the results from the AR60 match in Ft.Benning recently. 91 shooters, each of which was picked to represent his country and compete for olympic quota places (the bottom few are usually sent for experience or competing outside their regular events just because they're there anyway). The top eighty of that 91 are all scoring in the 580s. We have one shooter who can currently hit that in AR60, maybe two on a good day. (To get into the top 30 for a "Developmental" grant, they'd need to hit 593, which so far as I know, noone has ever done in Ireland, even in training).

And they're going up against eighty other people, most of whom are full-time, nationally funded athletes with support teams and sponsorship deals in countries where sport is a recognised, supported and accepted career path. Half of those who work jobs, work jobs in the firearms industry and their job responsibilities are to train and occasionally to help with new product testing.

But that's just the breadth of the field.

The depth comes from the fact that these people we're competing against have been shooting from age eight or younger. Some will have been in formal coaching and training since they started (remember - that gets you arrested here). And some have absolutely nothing else in their lives. Remember the chinese girl who won the air pistol match in Beijing crying after she won? She was crying because winning meant she was finally going to be allowed to call her family for the first time in nearly six months (only to learn her mother had breast cancer).

Ever seen a GAA player (or Rugby player or Golf player) go up against that kind of competition?

It wasn't me! · 02-06-2011 02:17PM

Preaching to the choir there Bman. I'm heading into my last year in college and one of the big concerns is where I look for work if I'm going to keep shooting competitively. I don't mind making my own sacrifices, but you still need to have the opportunities, and that means being smart to create them. All the best opportunities in the world though and you still have to find the money. It's all well and good having time to attend matches and train and even having the money to do it, but how many jobs give you a couple of months leave a year at your own discretion to be abroad and competing? It's a really hard situation because we don't have the infrastructure that exists for our contemporaries abroad. And I'm not interested in just going abroad. That's not the endgame. It's about going abroad and, having gotten into that scene, winning, and that's the difference. It's not too hard in terms of job requirements, finances or personal commitment to actually get abroad. Being competitive there is where that changes.

IRLConor · 02-06-2011 02:22PM

Bananaman wrote: »

Is it verbotten to have a job and do this?

It's only really at the very high end of the scale that you start to see fully-funded shooters. The vast majority have full-time jobs.

If I was shooting at a high enough level that I was going to lots of World Cups and similar-level competitions, I'd pretty much have to change jobs to one where it didn't matter if I was away for several weeks a year and could guarantee they'd only expect to see me between 0900 and 1730 (or similar).

Right now, I do my best to fit in training around work. To get to a very high level I'd need to fit work around training. It's possible, but those jobs are tricky enough to arrange. You know well yourself that jobs in tech with <= 40 hour weeks and lots of holidays are few and far between! Fewer still leave you with ammo money after the mortgage/rent is paid!

I've pretty much resigned myself to the fact that I'll probably never see a cent in funding. If by some miracle I do it'll be a nice bonus, but I'm not going to hold my breath. I'll do my best with what I have and try to keep enjoying it.

Sparks · 02-06-2011 02:23PM

Bananaman wrote: »

I travelled to an international a few times a year - admittedly 'near' internationals in Europe but still €500 for the weekend - with ammo and entry fees on top of that.

B'man, the only international ISSF match you can get to for €500 might be the Isle of Man Easter shoot. Anything on the continent (where the actual ISSF matches start, at least for airgun) and you're looking at at least twice that. Hell, we pay nearly €500 in excess baggage charges alone.

But at least you can do it.

No, we can't, not really - that's the point. We can do the same sport, yes. Can we effectively compete at the levels that the ISC expects? No, not with the level of support we have and the amount of legislation we currently operate under.

That's not a whinge - that's me listing the two things that have to change. And I think putting the guts of a decade into trying to fix them means I get to list them without being classed as a whinger

Bananaman · 02-06-2011 02:24PM

In truth I don't see your point.

I just gave it as an example of people who

a) have jobs
b) have families
c) train every day of the week
d) compete every week
e) train all year round: sun, wind, rain, hail, snow, etc.
e) travel to train
f) travel to compete
g) have to maintain an extremely high degree of fitness/stamina and skill
h) have to contend with injuries (Equipment failure)
i) have to pay the bills

but just get it done - hundreds of them (at inter county level) - no whinging - no complaining - the vast majority of them never getting to lift a cup - yet they keep doing it until they cannot do it anymore

You cannot commit more than they do to their sport - but you could commit as much as they do. If you're not good enough at that point it wont be because the ISC didn't give you a pat on the arse.

You are only really competing with yourself at the end of the day. Even if you manage to get up on a podium at the Olympics - you will still only have done your best and got lucky that the other guy didn't.

B'Man

Sparks · 02-06-2011 02:25PM

IRLConor wrote: »

I've pretty much resigned myself to the fact that I'll probably never see a cent in funding.

I reckon I won't be able to resign myself to that until I no longer have to pay licence fees and taxes

Sparks · 02-06-2011 02:33PM

Bananaman wrote: »

In truth I don't see your point.

Okay, to simplify:

The ISC doesn't support our sport fairly
ISSF shooting is a damn sight harder than anyone fully understands
Some of us aren't content with Bisley Week as the pinnaccle of our shooting career and are ticked off that we have to pay money into the exchequer to shoot in our sport, but don't get enough back for people with potential to actually realise it.

If I could settle for inter-county level shooting B'man (which in our terms translates to being the club champion), I probably wouldn't have a problem.

I just gave it as an example of people who
a) have jobs

GAA jobs are infamous, don't forget, for being support grants in effect.

b) have families

Most successful GAA athletes don't.

f) travel to compete

Not as far as we have to.

g) have to maintain an extremely high degree of fitness/stamina and skill

Yup.

h) have to contend with injuries (Equipment failure)

Injuries aren't equipment failure. We get both of those ourselves too.

i) have to pay the bills

Their bills are far smaller than ours.

but just get it done - hundreds of them (at inter county level) - no whinging - no complaining

Never heard of the GPA, eh?

You cannot commit more than they do to their sport - but you could commit as much as they do.

No, we couldn't, because of things we have to do that they don't have to do - and that's why the comparison is a bad one.

demonloop · 02-06-2011 02:33PM

B'man, a few have hinted at this, but there is no comparison between a GAA player at the highest level possible in his sport, to a world class international shooter.

You can be the best footballer in Ireland, but you will only ever be that. We're talking about being one of the best shooters in the world.

Read back to my previous post about the financial differences and remember when we talk about travelling to compete, we're not talking about travelling to away games, 50 miles up the road, we're talking 14 days away from home half way around the worls, competing against the best other countries have to offer, not counties.

@Sparks - you need to start DHLing your gear

Sparks · 02-06-2011 02:36PM

demonloop wrote: »

@Sparks - you need to start DHLing your gear

Actually, Daniel and myself were looking into that during the Kuortane training camp the last time we were there (and facing the €250 excess charge on the way back). Turns out it's not quite as easy as we'd like - couriering firearms around gets complicated

Best we could do was to change airlines and routes, and go via an SAS flight into Vaasa and then drive overland to Kuortane with the Canadians. Things may have changed since then though...

Sparks · 02-06-2011 02:36PM

demonloop wrote: »

B'man, a few have hinted at this, but there is no comparison between a GAA player at the highest level possible in his sport, to a world class international shooter.

Much as a Kerryman hates to say it...
...he's right.

It wasn't me! · 02-06-2011 02:37PM

demonloop wrote: »

@Sparks - you need to start DHLing your gear

Actually, I wonder how viable this is. I know that for some matches, shooters can fly with rifles and ammo while the gearbags travel in a van, but that means a support team trekking across the continent with the team's gear.

Sparks · 02-06-2011 02:48PM

It might be possible to do something like that - DHL the kitbags and clothes and travel with the rifles and ammo. We were looking at doing it the other way round...

intershoot · 02-06-2011 02:50PM

demonloop wrote: »

Sparks,

To be honest, most of my post was aimed squarely at the north's sporting bodies, as that's where I've gathered most of my experience from, but I'm sure 90% of it applies to the south too.

Whilst we do have a few athletes in the north on funding programmes, there doesn't seem to be a red cent for a development shooter, nor a promising shooter, nor anyone else.

Now I've no problem with the majority of the funding being pushed towards the 'elite' - I agree with that whole-heartedly - but if you were a promising shooter, worthy of 'development' then unless you have the cash to put on the table, you're screwed.

When we went to Hannover last month it cost me around £800 (if you include the £200 phone bill) - and let's face it, if you want to progress you need to be doing 3/4 of those comps a year. Thats serious money.

PS I'm in ranting mood today, probably the heat...

I agree that "promising young shooters" may need assistance, you fail to meet about three of criteria in that description!!!

Bananaman · 02-06-2011 03:11PM

You can be the best footballer in Ireland, but you will only ever be that. We're talking about being one of the best shooters in the world.

And when you are you will only ever be that too.

I am highlighting that getting the time to do the training is do-able - even with a job - example GAA Athletes - train or compete seven days a week.
(Whether you do sit ups, fling a javelin or shoot lead - training = time)

I am highlighting that having a job - which would allow you to fund your training is do-able - example GAA Athletes
(whether they fund themselves is not relevant - they have jobs and train or compete 7 days a week)
(Don't belittle their jobs - go get one - then you too can have the life of riley you believe they have)

I am highlighting that these are a good example of athletes - hundreds of them - right here in your own backyard - there is no need to compare them to other sports - you do not compare a PR60 shooter to a chess player for dedication do you?

They are the BEST IN THE WORLD at what they do - nuf said.

If you commit the time and resources and make the same sacrifices as GAA players do - you should be so good that the money will come find you - if not - well then at least you'll know how good you could have been.

The point is that ISC funding is not the be all and end all - you will be old and gray if you wait for that before being able to do better.

B'Man

It wasn't me! · 02-06-2011 03:23PM

Bananaman wrote: »

If you commit the time and resources and make the same sacrifices as GAA players do - you should be so good that the money will come find you

This is head off a wall stuff. You commit that time and energy and the enormous amounts of your own money to get to that point (And it's huge - this is where comparing the athletes of the GAA falls down, because it costs a fortune to get good in the first place) and then there's no money. You can pursue the goal then and run yourself into destitution, but that's not something anyone would recommend. And therein, you have the nub of why there isn't a clear route to the top, which is exactly what the ISC needs to provide in terms of funding. There needs to be a visible path to meaningful finances, rather than a minefield to get an absolutely token amount. The point is that you need all the following: Time, dedication, money, support. You're emphasising dedication, saying it'll find the time, and to a large extent, you're right; people certainly aren't maximising the time available to them, but what happens when the family leaves you because you're not home because you're training all the time and spending all your money on travelling and competing? What happens when your employer drops you because you keep asking for time off to travel and compete? (Don't need to look too far to find painful examples along this line - Ask FLOYDSTER). Let's say the family is 100% behind you, the job allows you the time required (and don't underestimate it, it's enormous) and you have support from the ISC in the form of funding and access to their network of physiotherapists and sports scientists, then you're in with a real shot. Lose any single aspect of that and you're shagged, completely. Frankly, dragging the GAA into it isn't really a useful comparison. If you look at the numbers involved in either sport, particularly at the ultimate level, and the strength and depth of competition, then it's obvious. However, if you think about it in terms of the commitment required to be a successful runner internationally, then you're more on the money, and look at the infrastructure in place there for a more useful comparison of what we need.

IRLConor · 02-06-2011 03:25PM

In fairness to the two of ye Sparks and Bananaman, I think ye're not quite talking about the same thing exactly.

Maybe I can clarify it a little with this:

If I trained as hard and as long as GAA players, would I be a much better shooter? Undoubtedly.
If I trained as hard and as long as GAA players, would I (all other things like "talent" being equal) be worrying the likes of Matt Emmons when I appeared on a firing line? Maybe, if he was having a tough day.

It wasn't me! · 02-06-2011 03:27PM

IRLConor wrote: »

In fairness to the two of ye Sparks and Bananaman, I think ye're not quite talking about the same thing exactly.

Maybe I can clarify it a little with this:
If I trained as hard and as long as GAA players, would I be a much better shooter? Undoubtedly.

If I trained as hard and as long as GAA players, would I (all other things like "talent" being equal) be worrying the likes of Matt Emmons when I appeared on a firing line? Maybe, if he was having a tough day.

And if you trained as long and as hard as the GAA players, would you have the funds to get you to the match to compete against Emmons in the first place? Oh my, the funding body for sports doesn't appear to be anywhere to be seen.

Sparks · 02-06-2011 03:29PM

Bananaman wrote: »

I am highlighting that getting the time to do the training is do-able - even with a job - example GAA Athletes - train or compete seven days a week.

And we're trying to gently point out that the jobs that sustain GAA athletes will not sustain target shooters, who have to worry about things GAA athletes - by and large - don't, because of their different age profiles. Gooch doesn't have a wife and young kids and a mortgage for example. Can't say that about our international shooters.

I am highlighting that having a job - which would allow you to fund your training is do-able - example GAA Athletes

And we're trying to gently remind you that from long before we were born, GAA athlete's jobs at intercounty level weren't so much jobs as support structures. Time for training, time for matches, and so on, were all built into the jobs for them. Nothing wrong with that - but saying it's a burden when it's a support mechanism isn't on. We don't say that the jobs the USAMU shooters have are burdens for the same reason, and we don't think they shouldn't have them either, it's just that if that's what the competition has, you have to accept that that's what's needed to compete. These people live in places where sport is an accepted career path. Here, we don't. (example: if your kid said he wanted to grow up to be a PE teacher, would you really think that was a real job? Honestly?)
Choosing to compete against people with that kind of support structure means chosing to not have a pension in Ireland. Or health insurance. Or a house. Or to be able to afford to have a family.

I am highlighting that these are a good example of athletes - hundreds of them - right here in your own backyard - there is no need to compare them to other sports - you do not compare a PR60 shooter to a chess player for dedication do you?

Actually, they're pretty close. Except that since Fischer, chess players make enough money that choosing to follow chess is not choosing to die in penury.

They are the BEST IN THE WORLD at what they do - nuf said.

And we're competing with them.

And - and this is the bit that everyone is annoyed at - the ISC is saying all we need to do that is €3k a year.

The point is that ISC funding is not the be all and end all - you will be old and gray if you wait for that before being able to do better.

Yeah, I don't think you'll find much waiting around going on B'man.
You will find people (like me) who're quite ticked off that the criteria for the basic developmental level of ISC grants are set so that you have to be beyond world-class and into the top of the world class before you get even the smallest amount of money; and who're even more ticked off that fixing that has not only been held up by the Department of Sport and the Irish Sports Council, but by other shooters.

And when the ISC classes us as a minority sport because we don't win enough Olympic medals while operating under those criteria....

...well, that gets on everyone's teeth. And it affects more than just the ISSF shooters. You think if olympic shooting was as big in Ireland as (say) cricket or sailing, that any of the shooting sports have to cope with the level of crap we have to?

Bananaman · 02-06-2011 03:30PM

Sparks wrote: »

Okay, to simplify:
Some of us aren't content with Bisley Week as the pinnaccle of our shooting career and are ticked off that we have to pay money into the exchequer to shoot in our sport, but don't get enough back for people with potential to actually realise it.

A veiled "your sport" thingy from you again huh?

The degree of prejudice you show towards anything that is not the specific subset of target shooting you take part in - or the people who take part in it - if breathtaking - it borders on racist.

Hundreds of people train hard all year to take part in The Pheoenix match @ Bisley.

Many people scrimp and save all year to have the funds to travel to that match. They practice long and hard to be as good as they can to win individually or to be part of a team representing their country.

Why belittle someone who trains hard all year for a specific match?
Why would you do that? What have you to gain?

Why is that any more or less important than you training hard all year to go to a match - whether it was in Meath, Munich or Montevideo?

It is not - it is of equal importance.

Shame on you!!

B'Man

Bananaman · 02-06-2011 03:33PM

It wasn't me! wrote: »

You can pursue the goal then and run yourself into destitution, but that's not something anyone would recommend.

Agreed - so you do what you cna and be happy with it.

Being pissed off will not help.

B'man

IRLConor · 02-06-2011 03:35PM

It wasn't me! wrote: »

And if you trained as long and as hard as the GAA players, would you have the funds to get you to the match to compete against Emmons in the first place? Oh my, the funding body for sports doesn't appear to be anywhere to be seen.

Yeah, I would.

In theory at least, I could just about squeeze their hours in around my job. I earn enough (and thanks to a smallish mortgage and no kids, have enough surplus) to make it to a few high level matches a year. I'd run out of holidays a little before I ran out of cash.

I don't know if I could physically hack that lack of sleep, keep my job and still see my better half awake more than once a week though.

It wasn't me! · 02-06-2011 03:39PM

Bananaman wrote: »

Agreed - so you do what you cna and be happy with it.

Being pissed off will not help.

B'man

No, you do all that you can, get to the point where you need the support to get further, and then you need the support infrastructure to get further, so it should be there, and if it's not, then that's something that needs to change. I'm not interested in getting good for giggles. I'm not doing it because I like loud noises. I want to win, and I want to win big, and that means support, because it is just absolutely not possible otherwise. It doesn't happen anywhere else and it's certainly not going to happen here. I don't plod down to the range on a sunday for the tea and chat. I'm there to get work done, and I'm constantly working on my shooting, at home and on the range, with the one goal of winning abroad in mind, so no, getting to "wherever I can and being happy with it" is not the objective. That's not a goal. I'm working my ass off to get good enough and currently, when I am good enough, there's no support there, and that needs to change. The day it costs a GAA player upwards of 19k a year just to compete, you can make that comparison, then take away all their funding and support infrastructure, then we'll talk.

IRLConor · 02-06-2011 03:40PM

Bananaman wrote: »

A veiled "your sport" thingy from you again huh?

The degree of prejudice you show towards anything that is not the specific subset of target shooting you take part in - or the people who take part in it - if breathtaking - it borders on racist.

Hundreds of people train hard all year to take part in The Pheoenix match @ Bisley.

Many people scrimp and save all year to have the funds to travel to that match. They practice long and hard to be as good as they can to win individually or to be part of a team representing their country.

Why belittle someone who trains hard all year for a specific match?
Why would you do that? What have you to gain?

Why is that any more or less important than you training hard all year to go to a match - whether it was in Meath, Munich or Montevideo?

It is not - it is of equal importance.

Shame on you!!

B'Man

I don't think he was referring to The Phoenix shoot. More probably the Bisley Week smallbore prone competitions which would not be equivalent to The Phoenix in terms of shooting standard.

The smallbore prone stuff at Bisley week is a higher standard than domestic competition but it wouldn't compare to a European Championships or Hanover or Plzen.

Sparks · 02-06-2011 03:47PM

Bananaman wrote: »

A veiled "your sport" thingy from you again huh?

Actually, Bisley Week is the pinaccle of a lot of the smallbore shooters shooting goals in NTSA shooting, and it's in August and it's where the Earl Roberts Cup is won each year - it's not a reference to the Phoenix Match, which has never been called Bisley Week by any shooter I've ever met. Before you call someone racist, maybe you should know what they're talking about.

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