Is David Norris Toast?

zuroph · 31-05-2011 02:19PM

later10 wrote: »

Not for a fifteen year old. But for a twenty five year old to suggest that such a thing has, in retrospect, something to be said for it, yes I would find that unacceptable.

David Norris said that he would have liked such a thing when he was a boy - sure - no problem there at all.

But for him to say, as an adult, that such a situation has merit, is what I have trouble in excusing.

but thats not what he did, as you're abandoning the context again. he's saying theres something to be said for "it".. as in, remove the sex, and the mentoring, education and chance to speak frankly about his sexuality with someone would have been something he would have benefitted from. Nowhere in it does he mention any explicit acts, so you cannot presume that he means the aspect of pederasty you have a problem with, perhaps he just means a chat and a pint?? the "something" does not necessarily refer to sex.

zuroph · 31-05-2011 02:22PM

later10 wrote: »

Not for a fifteen year old. But for a twenty five year old to suggest that such a thing has, in retrospect, something to be said for it, yes I would find that unacceptable.

But I just said, as a 28 year old, that, as a 15 year old, I would have enjoyed it. I'm not saying 28 year olds should be with 15 year olds, but I'm saying when I was 15 I wouldnt have said no. You didnt brand me a pervert.

That's what he said also.

d'Oracle · 31-05-2011 02:27PM

This is a restaurant critic.

Why is a restaurant critic a viable source for political information?

Nodin · 31-05-2011 02:29PM

d'Oracle wrote: »

This is a restaurant critic.

Why is a restaurant critic a viable source for political information?

Why is a programme hosted by Joe Duffy a platform for attack on a presidential candidate by a restaurant critic, even?

d'Oracle · 31-05-2011 02:31PM

Indeed.
I'd say "only in Ireland", but unfortunately I reckon it could happen everywhere.

later12 · 31-05-2011 02:34PM

zuroph wrote: »

but thats not what he did, as you're abandoning the context again. he's saying theres something to be said for "it".. as in, remove the sex, and the mentoring, education and chance to speak frankly about his sexuality with someone would have been something he would have benefitted from. Nowhere in it does he mention any explicit acts

Oh come on. If you are going to defend this you should at least be realistic. Do you think that Norris was referring to going for milkshakes here? Why else would he mention classical paedophilia or pederasty, and qualify it by mentioning what it does not appeal to him? By the way, there is certainly no suggestion that David Norris has done anything wrong, or that he is interested in pedaristic behaviour - that notion needs to be nipped in the bud. But so does yours.

in terms of classic paedophilia, as practised by the Greeks, for example, where it is an older man introducing a younger man to adult life, there can be something said for it. Now, again, this is not something that appeals to me.

But I just said, as a 28 year old, that, as a 15 year old, I would have enjoyed it. I'm not saying 28 year olds should be with 15 year olds, but I'm saying when I was 15 I wouldnt have said no. You didnt brand me a pervert.

Of course not. I am convinced that the vast majority of kids, whether gay or straight, would have felt similarly to Norris when he was a boy. Nor is remarking on those feelings in retrospect any way perverse.

Saying that you now find that to have merit in the more considered wisdom of adulthood, as Norris was saying, is what most people would probably take issue with.

FoxT · 31-05-2011 02:35PM

I am not associated with David Norris, but I plan to vote for him.

I heard a bit of the Joe Duffy show yesterday & was gobsmacked. I dimly recalled this bubbling up years ago & being put to bed. Reread the Magill article & Joe Jackson interview, and his Bio.

David Norris's father died when David was 6 years of age, and David himself was gay at a time when it was very difficult/isolating.

In this context I think it is understandable that David might say that a relationship with an older man could have been a positive thing for him.

My impression is that this is what he meant - but of course he stepped on a landmine when he started talking about 'Classical pederasty'. He also shot himself in the foot when he explained his views on the age of consent.

So, he made a mistake in an interview 9 years ago. It is probably a good thing that this has bubbled up again, now, it would be worse for him if it came up closer to, or after, the election.

I remain convinced that he would be a good president, and a good ambassador for Ireland.

-Foxt

Nodin · 31-05-2011 02:36PM

d'Oracle wrote: »

Indeed.
I'd say "only in Ireland", but unfortunately I reckon it could happen everywhere.

O indeed, indeed.

Anyhoo, its now 14.35 as I'm typing this and nobody with a stronger stomach than me has reported hearing the tape on Mr Bluffys show....

d'Oracle · 31-05-2011 02:37PM

Nodin wrote: »

O indeed, indeed.

Anyhoo, its now 14.35 as I'm typing this and nobody with a stronger stomach than me has reported hearing the tape on Mr Bluffys show....

I'm listening to it. No tape there, just her quoting the article.
She is getting hammered.

zuroph · 31-05-2011 02:39PM

so you interpret it one way, I interpret another. Having read the magill article first, such was the push, I was taken aback. However, once I read Norris put it in to context, it made sense to me.
You say that you agree he (probably) hasnt any interest in such things. However, HLB yesterday called it a sinful evil way of thinking. evocative language. That, and the "holiday in thailand" were the two stand out parts of her conversation that helped make my mind up on just who was trying to play to peoples emotions.

d'Oracle · 31-05-2011 02:42PM

John Waters was Editor of McGill at the time.....

later12 · 31-05-2011 02:44PM

d'Oracle wrote: »

I'm listening to it. No tape there, just her quoting the article.
She is getting hammered.

What are you talking about, she is not on Radio 1. They are trying to convert the tape to radio.

d'Oracle · 31-05-2011 02:45PM

later10 wrote: »

What are you talking about, she is not on Radio 1. They are trying to convert the tape to radio.

Helen Lucy Burke is on Joe Duffy right now.
What are you talking about?

Wolfe Tone · 31-05-2011 02:47PM

d'Oracle wrote: »

Helen Lucy Burke is on Joe Duffy right now.
What are you talking about?

lol no she aint, he is still on about seminar crap/cult

Judgement Day · 31-05-2011 02:49PM

d'Oracle wrote: »

This is a restaurant critic.

Why is a restaurant critic a viable source for political information?

Why should being a restaurant critic invalidate her article? Don't like the message, shoot the messenger.....:rolleyes:

PS I don't what Joe Duffy Show you're listening to as the tape has not been on or HLB.

d'Oracle · 31-05-2011 02:49PM

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

lol no she aint, he is still on about seminar crap/cult

I'm listening online.
And I have not heard a thing about seminars.

Maybe I'm listening to yesterdays.
Was she on yesterday?

later12 · 31-05-2011 02:51PM

zuroph wrote: »

You say that you agree he (probably) hasnt any interest in such things. However, HLB yesterday called it a sinful evil way of thinking. evocative language.

I think the use of the word evil was a bit silly on her part, certainly I would agree that this way of thinking is unacceptable in a country like Ireland which did in 2002, and still does have today, a particularly brutal history in terms of paedophilia and-or pederasty.

We also have a particularly sad history of sticking up for public figures who seem to advance crazy commentary on such issues, going all the way back to corporal punishment and paedophilia by some members of the Roman Catholic clergy in the mid 20th century. It is in that light that I find the more illogical defenses of David Norris to be in particularly bad taste. People are sticking up for him here by using rebuttals that he has not even attempted himself, and denying his having made comments which he is not presently denying having made, and which are currently on a Phillips tape in an RTE studio.

dvpower · 31-05-2011 02:52PM

d'Oracle wrote: »

I'm listening online.
And I have not heard a thing about seminars.

Maybe I'm listening to yesterdays.
Was she on yesterday?

She was on yesterday - the seminar thing is today.

later12 · 31-05-2011 02:52PM

d'Oracle wrote: »

Helen Lucy Burke is on Joe Duffy right now.
What are you talking about?

You are listening to a repeat of the show yesterday.
The tape is in RTE, it is being prepared for radio.

31-05-2011 02:53PM

Where are you getting the information that it is a phillips tape and that rte are in the process of converting it for radio?

d'Oracle · 31-05-2011 02:53PM

Judgement Day wrote: »

Why should being a restaurant critic invalidate her article? Don't like the message, shoot the messenger.....:rolleyes:

Being a restaurant critic doesn't lend itself well to proper interviewing.
It is not reporting on affairs nor objective interpretation of an interview.

What it is is giving (often undeserved) extra weight to ones own opinion.
Basically she is not really qualified to dispense this. And from the sounds of what I am listening to my concerns would be valid.

This is not good journalism, it sounds like he said something that she didn't like and unjustly coloured her opinion of his beliefs, that is what invalidates her article.

Judgement Day · 31-05-2011 02:54PM

d'Oracle wrote: »

I'm listening online.
And I have not heard a thing about seminars.

Maybe I'm listening to yesterdays.
Was she on yesterday?

Breathe in, breathe out....:pac::pac::pac:

zuroph · 31-05-2011 02:54PM

d'Oracle wrote: »

I'm listening online.
And I have not heard a thing about seminars.

Maybe I'm listening to yesterdays.
Was she on yesterday?

yes she was on yesterday. lol. can you fast forward?

i'm listening live online, its about "landmark courses" all afternoon.

PS, they sound like a total scam.

Zubeneschamali · 31-05-2011 02:54PM

zuroph wrote: »

However, HLB yesterday called it a sinful evil way of thinking.

Not "perverted and criminal". Not "wrong and harmful". Sinful and evil.

Okey dokey.

zuroph · 31-05-2011 02:56PM

later10 wrote: »

I think the use of the word evil was a bit silly on her part, certainly I would agree that this way of thinking is unacceptable in a country like Ireland which did in 2002, and still does have today, a particularly brutal history in terms of paedophilia and-or pederasty.

We also have a particularly sad history of sticking up for public figures who seem to advance crazy commentary on such issues, going all the way back to corporal punishment and paedophilia by some members of the Roman Catholic clergy in the mid 20th century. It is in that light that I find the more illogical defenses of David Norris to be in particularly bad taste. People are sticking up for him here by using rebuttals that he has not even attempted himself, and denying his having made comments which he is not presently denying having made, and which are currently on a Phillips tape in an RTE studio.

I havent seen many directly deny the quotation, bar people who have questioned what he said, on both sides. What most people have questioned is the context.

d'Oracle · 31-05-2011 02:57PM

Judgement Day wrote: »

Breathe in, breathe out....:pac::pac::pac:

Sorry?

Judgement Day · 31-05-2011 02:59PM

d'Oracle wrote: »

Sorry?

Forget it. I'm just puzzled as to how you can be contributing to this thread without realising that the Joe Duffy interview was yesterday.

later12 · 31-05-2011 03:00PM

zuroph wrote: »

i'm listening live online, its about "landmark courses" all afternoon.

PS, they sound like a total scam.

They do, and likely to remind posters of another Presidential nominee-candidate Kathleen O Meara (Labour) who was involved in a Landmark mini controversy a few years back.

Joe really is hammering the potential nominees this week!

Tomorrow -- Mairead McGiuinness steals lunch money from disabled school children.

tbh · 31-05-2011 03:01PM

Judgement Day wrote: »

Why should being a restaurant critic invalidate her article? Don't like the message, shoot the messenger.....:rolleyes:

it's all about context.

unless the interview is being reproduced verbatim, then you have to accept that a certain amount of conscious or unconscious editorialising is being done - you are experiencing the interview through the filter of HLB, and all her opinions, experiences and bias - positive or negative.

For example, if Gerry Adams and, say, Tom Elliot interviewed Martin McGuinness, asked him the same questions to which he gave the exact same answers, the two published articles would likely be very different.

So in this case, I think the fact that HLB being a restaurant critic, and not, say, a political analyst or an academic does throw up the possibility that she misinterpreted some of what DN was saying. I'm not saying that is what happened, but her previous body of work is definitely relevant.

Wolfe Tone · 31-05-2011 03:01PM

d'Oracle wrote: »

Being a restaurant critic doesn't lend itself well to proper interviewing.
It is not reporting on affairs nor objective interpretation of an interview.

What it is is giving (often undeserved) extra weight to ones own opinion.
Basically she is not really qualified to dispense this. And from the sounds of what I am listening to my concerns would be valid.

This is not good journalism, it sounds like he said something that she didn't like and unjustly coloured her opinion of his beliefs, that is what invalidates her article.

Helen Lucy Burke is originally of Galway origin but now based in Dublin. For years she was prominent in the Equal Pay and the Womens' Rights movements. At the same time she was also working as a freelance journalist, mainly writing on political and economics issues. Then she was asked by the Sunday Tribune to write restaurant reviews, which she did for years, changing several times to write for other periodicals.

At present she is the restaurant reviewer for the Dubliner Magazine. She has also written a best-selling novel, and prize-winning short stories.

http://www.irishfoodwritersguild.ie/members/helen.php

Is David Norris Toast?

Comments