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Is it reasonable to expect men to remain monogamous?

  • 29-05-2011 02:33PM
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    I was reading the Sunday Independent this morning just before I went to church and there was naturally a good bit of discussion about the whole Ryan Giggs fiasco, but I never expected that I would see an article essentially justifying the affair saying that men just can't remain faithful to one partner (which I think is nonsense and is just a means of scapegoating). The author makes reference to his own behaviour:
    When the urge strikes, we men can't seem to stop ourselves from straying, writes John McEntee MY heart goes out to Ryan Giggs. Allegedly caught with his trousers round his superbly trained ankles over his affair with former Big Brother star Imogen Thomas, he felt obliged to resort to lawyer to the stars Keith Schilling to keep his guilty secret from the gorgeous Mrs Giggs. For weeks, he must have squirmed as his expensively obtained legal shield crumbled to dust via Twitter and the feverish gossip of the internet.
    His superinjunction backfired spectacularly and as fellow London lawyer Mark Stephens remarked last week: "Schillings made a disaster out of a crisis". At least Ryan gave his missus two weeks notice of impending Armageddon. But on mature reflection, the Welsh international must wonder why he bothered.
    At £600-an hour the Manchester United star might feel that Schillings have not served him well. A simple case of (alleged) adultery has turned into an international debate about privacy. Years ago when the writer Clive James accused the then editor of Private Eye Richard Ingrams of writing stories which sent children home from school weeping, Ingrams retorted that it was not Private Eye but the behaviour of the parents which had made the children cry.
    But Ryan Giggs was only following the well-trodden path of his species and doing what us men can't seem to help doing. I don't mean going to expensive lawyers but remaining monogamous. Women can vow to love, honour and obey at the altar and stick to that promise. Men, it seems, can't. From former Taoiseach Charlie Haughey to Boyzone warbler Ronan Keating, we can't seem to stay faithful to the love of our lives.
    Many women feel complete by giving birth. We delight in replicating ourselves but that does not seem sufficient. We retain a wandering eye.
    For us males, getting an illicit leg over is raging against ageing, rebelling at mortality, dodging the drop, kicking out against the shroud, rejoicing in life and to hell with the awful consequences.
    How do I know? I am as guilty as Charlie and Ronan and, with an eye on Ryan Giggs's legal eagles just as fallible as the veteran Old Trafford footballer. I can't seem to stay faithful. Try as I might, the urges take over.
    Long ago, and based in Dublin, I was blissfully engaged to the apple of my eye, the love of my life and the subsequent mother of three adorable children.
    What do I do? I find myself churning through the Irish Sea between Dublin's North Wall and Liverpool on a bachelor trip to England. In the bar of the B&I Leinster I get into conversation with an extremely well-nourished Moore Street trader on her way to buy merchandise in Merseyside. Her particular mission was to purchase a wholesale consignment of a plastic male doll who peed like a water pistol when his trousers were slid down. He was called Cheeky Charlie.
    After much non-intellectual conversation fuelled by Guinness, Cheeky John adjourned at 3am to the deserted upper deck lounge of the good ship Leinster. Frantic fumbling and slobbering kisses were followed by the most unromantic congress imaginable. Cheerio then, Bridie, or whoever, I thought. We'll never meet again. I was wrong.
    Weeks later , strolling down Henry Street on a sunny Saturday afternoon hand in hand with my cherub, the focus of my affection, the light of my life, all seemed right with the world. Passing the entrance to Moore Street, a roly poly female vendor was bellowing: "Get Your Cheeky Charlies. Get Your Cheeky Charlies".
    I failed to recognise her. Unfortunately I couldn't say the same about her. Suddenly she started to wave in my direction. "Howya, John, how's it going?"
    Crikey, the penny dropped. I recognised her. I ignored her and urged my precious petal to accelerate. She noticed the old slapper bellowing in my direction: "She's waving at you, John. She knows you."
    I insisted she was mistaken, that she was a demented harridan from Mary Street, ignore her, dear, move along. My thwarted and furious Moore Street squeeze got the message and immediately changed tack. With an outburst that could be heard in O'Connell Street she roared, "Jaysus, John, you weren't so f***ing shy when you were riding me on the Leinster."
    I draw a discreet veil over the inevitable repercussions -- except to say that the love of my life and I are now divorced following further manifestation of this male need to be unfaithful. And her successor, equally lovely and utterly faithful, has had every justifiable reason to give me the elbow following my recent, illicit, amorous encounter with a delightful Indian lady in the disabled toilets of a four-star hotel off Trafalgar Square.
    Unbeknownst to me my mobile telephone, located in the breast pocket of my suit inadvertently dialled my inamorata's telephone number while I was, for want of a better expression, furiously 'at it'. Every grunt and howl was duly transmitted, courtesy of Vodaphone, to my peerless darling.
    No superinjunction, however turbo-charged, universal and copper-fastened, would have gotten Ryan Giggs out of that one.

    I was thinking of posting this in After Hours but I think I might get a better discussion going in here.

    Do you think the author is justified in saying that women are able to keep better control of men in a relationship?

    Do you think that the author is making a valid argument in excusing both his and Ryan Giggs' behaviour?

    Personally it disgusts me to see him justify something that can destroy peoples lives and families as if it is insignificant.

    Is it reasonable to expect men to remain monogamous? 81 votes

    Yes
    0%
    No
    87%
    Rev HellfireGerardKeatingCrucifixFighting Irishvibe666matrimjimmycrackcormZuludlofnepjill_valentineCathyMoranBizzyCaxerKevomikemacphilologosWibbs[Deleted User]Ickle Magooaidan24326 71 votes
    Unsure
    12%
    CorkfeenFreudianSlippersdaingeanrobpaulgalwayBullseye1MoragsealgaireThe HighwaymanPaddy De PlastererGrassey 10 votes


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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 199 ✭✭mystique150


    No
    He comes across as a wanker who clearly hasn't realised that a fling with a trollop cost him his relationship an is now attempting to justify his behaviour by comparing himself to other eejits. Instead of standing up like a man and attempt to reconcile his mistake, he attempts (rather poorly) to put it down to an innate inability to keep his cock in his pants. He did the wife a favour and she obviously found someone better.


  • Posts: 81,310 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Milena Big Walkway


    No
    Funny how it's always the cheaters proclaiming that all men have to cheat, just to make the cheater themselves feel better. And of course I suppose all the genuinely happy monogamous men are just in denial!
    No, it's the same old "everyone does it" excuse with little basis in reality, as far as I am concerned.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    No
    Oh, and also, if you vote no please explain why :)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 63 ✭✭cakeisgood


    No
    That article annoyed me. Men CAN stay faithful, this jerk is just making an excuse for his disgusting behaviour. No-one forced him to cheat did they? Many men stay faithful so why cant the likes of Ryan Giggs and this idiot? I dont know about the author, but with Ryan Giggs (and it seems many celebrities) they seem to get so egotistical that they think that they can do what they want. Its stupidity too, they actually seem to think they will get away with it but the truth always comes out-Look at Tiger Woods, Ronan Keating, Ashley Cole, Wayne Rooney etc etc Footballers seem to be the worst cheater-too much money and too much ego. They deserve the repercussions, its their wives/girlfriends I feel sorry for


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,798 ✭✭✭goose2005


    Women can vow to love, honour and obey at the altar and stick to that promise.

    That's a bit naive tbh. How does he even know that Cheeky Charlie woman wasn't married?


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,475 ✭✭✭drkpower


    The story from the Indo is clearly nonsense. Both examples he gives of being rumbled are essentialy urban legends; the type of fantastical horror stories blokes recite to one another in the pub.

    Leaving aside this 'journalist's' tales, and on topic, of course men can remain faithful. And of course women can remain faithful. But many men and women dont. Arrogance ('I can get away with this'), insecurity, a lack of empathy (not caring about the repurcussions on your loved one) and irresponsibility (just doing what feels good now whilst ignoring the consequences) are, imo, some of the key factors, which perhaps explains why men tend to be unfaitful more than women. Whilst not exclusively male traits, they tend to be more common in men.

    However, infidelity can occur in so many contexts that it is probably far too complicated to discuss properly in this format.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,565 ✭✭✭southsiderosie


    No
    Perhaps one should add "if they are in a committed relationship".

    If a man wants to have an open relationship, and his partner is ok with it, well that is between them. If this particular man knows he can't keep it in his pants, then he has no business getting married.

    I have several male friends who got married for the 'social respectability' factor, and who wanted to have kids with a 'nice girl', but also want to run around with anyone who tickles their fancy. It's incredibly selfish.

    It's also silly to think that it is just a male thing - women also cheat. Yet mysteriously this is never chalked up to something innately female...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    No
    That was assumed by the article really.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,485 ✭✭✭Denerick


    No
    Women cheat just as much as men if you ask me. Typical scapegoating by feminazi's determined to paint men as some kind of primitive cave man.

    It takes two to tango.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 917 ✭✭✭Bloody Nipples


    No
    Denerick wrote: »
    Women cheat just as much as men if you ask me. Typical scapegoating by feminazi's determined to paint men as some kind of primitive cave man.

    Which feminazis would that be exactly? Considering the author of the article was male and all the women posting here have rubbished his argument.

    I personally believe men can easily remain faithful. I'd have been a bit of a player before I met my gf but I haven't so much as kissed another girl since the night I met her. I'd be a fool to screw up a good thing so why would I?


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  • Posts: 81,310 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Milena Big Walkway


    No
    Denerick wrote: »
    Women cheat just as much as men if you ask me. Typical scapegoating by feminazi's determined to paint men as some kind of primitive cave man.

    It takes two to tango.

    How is the male author a feminazi? In fact, just - what? :confused:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,745 ✭✭✭Eliot Rosewater


    I think cheating is a far more serious issue for people in relationships than the author of the article or, in my opinion, the average person in a relationship is willing to admit.

    I think that if someone cheats on their partner it is a proof of a fundamental unhappiness with the relationship. This is particularly true of relationships which are founded primarily on base animal instincts like the desire to procreate and the desire to have a stable other member of the species as a partner. Cheating is all to do with the base animal instincts. "(S)he's hot, and I want to have them." So if one's relationship is itself based on these instincts, the act of cheating effectively nullifies it. It shows that what you get out of the relationship can be gotten elsewhere (and easily enough, too).


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,872 ✭✭✭strobe


    I'd say it is about as reasonable as expecting a hungry person not to steal food from their best friend.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12 cungryhunt


    Has anybody here actually cheated?

    Its way more common than you realise.

    The fact is that people who cheat get good at cheating and you will probably not find out that your husband or wife was balls deep in "some trollop" (if youre not the 50% who are trollops).
    For example, a survey I was reading recently showed 63% of latin americans have cheated.
    Everybody thinks that their husband or wife is completely faithful, but the truth of the matter is that about half of all people will at some stage cheat.

    In my opinion, much of the outrage that accompanies reports of people cheating is perhaps fear? Statistically speaking, half of those outraged above will probably or have probably been cheated on.

    Hatemail on a postcard to the usual address.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,872 ✭✭✭strobe


    cungryhunt wrote: »
    Has anybody here actually cheated?

    Its way more common than you realise.

    The fact is that people who cheat get good at cheating and you will probably not find out that your husband or wife was balls deep in "some trollop" (if youre not the 50% who are trollops).
    For example, a survey I was reading recently showed 63% of latin americans have cheated.
    Everybody thinks that their husband or wife is completely faithful, but the truth of the matter is that about half of all people will at some stage cheat.

    In my opinion, much of the outrage that accompanies reports of people cheating is perhaps fear? Statistically speaking, half of those outraged above will probably or have probably been cheated on.

    Hatemail on a postcard to the usual address.

    Any chance of some sources for the research that concluded that 50% (but 63% of Latin Americans) cheated? I'm not disputing the numbers really, but it's nice to have something more than someones say so. 71% of all people agree my sentiments.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,565 ✭✭✭southsiderosie


    No
    cungryhunt wrote: »
    Has anybody here actually cheated?

    Its way more common than you realise.

    The fact is that people who cheat get good at cheating and you will probably not find out that your husband or wife was balls deep in "some trollop" (if youre not the 50% who are trollops).
    For example, a survey I was reading recently showed 63% of latin americans have cheated.
    Everybody thinks that their husband or wife is completely faithful, but the truth of the matter is that about half of all people will at some stage cheat.

    In my opinion, much of the outrage that accompanies reports of people cheating is perhaps fear? Statistically speaking, half of those outraged above will probably or have probably been cheated on.

    Hatemail on a postcard to the usual address.

    I have never seen any data on marital cheating at the levels you are reporting here. A 2008 NY Times article suggests otherwise:
    The most consistent data on infidelity come from the General Social Survey, sponsored by the National Science Foundation and based at the University of Chicago, which has used a national representative sample to track the opinions and social behaviors of Americans since 1972. The survey data show that in any given year, about 10 percent of married people — 12 percent of men and 7 percent of women — say they have had sex outside their marriage.

    But detailed analysis of the data from 1991 to 2006, to be presented next month by Dr. Atkins at the Association for Behavioral and Cognitive Therapies conference in Orlando, show some surprising shifts. University of Washington researchers have found that the lifetime rate of infidelity for men over 60 increased to 28 percent in 2006, up from 20 percent in 1991. For women over 60, the increase is more striking: to 15 percent, up from 5 percent in 1991.

    The researchers also see big changes in relatively new marriages. About 20 percent of men and 15 percent of women under 35 say they have ever been unfaithful, up from about 15 and 12 percent respectively.

    Apparently the data is quite patchy, but this article suggests that the rate of infidelity is higher in poor countries - but still not anywhere near 60-70%.

    Also, the question is, is it reasonable to expect men to remain monogamous? Considering that getting married is an obvious commitment to a monogamous relationship (in Western society anyway), and that millions of men manage to remain committed to their partners, then I would say yes. If that is not what he wants, or feels capable of, then he should not get married.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,577 ✭✭✭✭Sleepy


    I've come across more women cheating on their husbands than vice versa to be honest.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    No
    strobe wrote: »
    I'd say it is about as reasonable as expecting a hungry person not to steal food from their best friend.

    I wasn't expecting this from you admittedly. How can you compare adultery to this? A marriage doesn't imply chastity, it should be possible to be sexually satisfied in a marriage. Besides even if you weren't the principled thing to do would be to end the marriage if you really wanted to pursue a relationship elsewhere?
    cungryhunt wrote: »
    In my opinion, much of the outrage that accompanies reports of people cheating is perhaps fear? Statistically speaking, half of those outraged above will probably or have probably been cheated on.

    Amount of people cheating != makes cheating better

    It's patently immoral, people should be outraged if that happened to them.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 29 LisaLowlife


    No
    Yeah there's loads of people who cheat regardless of gender. It is without a doubt that it is reasonable to expect men and woman alike to remain monogamous.

    This shouldn't even be a discussion


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,016 ✭✭✭✭vibe666


    No
    as a man and a husband i can confidently say that it's perfectly reasonable to expect both men and women to stay monogamous if they are in a loving relationship, it's not hard to do at all, you just avoid having sex with other people.

    and given the apparently high incidences of cheating that is going on in the world, assuming you've had at least a couple of previous partners in your life then it's reasonable to assume you've had someone cheat on you in the past so there's a good chance that you know exactly how it feels to have it done to you.

    how anyone can claim to love someone and then go out and intentionally put them through that pain is completely beyond me.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    No
    What should be up for discussion is whether or not I should read Sunday papers anymore, or rather the Sunday Independent? :pac:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,016 ✭✭✭✭vibe666


    No
    philologos wrote: »
    What should be up for discussion is whether or not I should read Sunday papers anymore, or rather the Sunday Independent? :pac:
    i'm actually starting to believe that society as a whole is going to hell in a handbasket because of the mainstream media. everything from tabloids to reality tv dumbing us down more and more to lead us straight to idiocracy.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,042 ✭✭✭✭28064212


    philologos wrote: »
    strobe wrote: »
    I'd say it is about as reasonable as expecting a hungry person not to steal food from their best friend.
    I wasn't expecting this from you admittedly. How can you compare adultery to this? A marriage doesn't imply chastity, it should be possible to be sexually satisfied in a marriage. Besides even if you weren't the principled thing to do would be to end the marriage if you really wanted to pursue a relationship elsewhere?
    I read it as strobe implying the opposite i.e. saying it's not reasonable to steal food from your best friend just because you're hungry. You might be entitled to ask, it's not reasonable to take. Could have read it wrong though.

    It's perfectly reasonable to expect people to be monogamous. However, I do think far too many people get married "for the sake of it"., which is definitely a factor

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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    No
    Perhaps I misread the analogy!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,925 ✭✭✭aidan24326


    No
    It's a really terrible article. He condones cheating while relaying almost certainly made-up stories of his own infidelities. A fat Moore St trader on the ferry? Classy.

    This is the nonsense that seems to pass for journalism in The Indo these days. Third-rate hacks who just make sh1t up when they've nothing else to write about (there are notable exceptions such as Gene Kerrigan and Vincent Hogan).


  • Posts: 7,344 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    No
    Although it is true for most monogamy and not cheating are not always the same thing. As such I am not sure asking if men can stay monogamous is entirely the correct question.

    There are those in open relationships for example who are allowed be with other people. There are still rules and expectations in the relationship however. There are those of us who are in a committed relationship but the number of people in that relationship is greater than 2. Clearly monogamy does not apply there either despite the fact that the same rules apply to those people on cheating and sleeping around that apply to any “normal” couples.

    It is worth recognizing therefore that you do not just commit to the person or people in the relationship but to the relationship itself. It is something you build together and it is a lot more than keeping your sexual organs away from people outside that relationship.

    Making that recognition makes the Ops question easier to answer. It is very much reasonable to expect men – and women – to stay committed to the relationship they are in just like it is to expect them to stay committed to any project that requires work and trust and from which we expect some returns – whether measured in happiness or success or protecting what has been invested in that project (such as our hearts and trust).

    That someone would throw so much time, energy and commitment into building such a project – and worse allow others to do the same – and then throw that all away merely for a bit of momentary sexual gratification on the side is for me not excusable.

    There is a lot more to relationships than sex. We put a lot more into them than sex and we get much more out of them too. People who are in them with us also add much of themselves to the mix. I can not only say genuinely that it is reasonable therefore to expect me to stay committed to that relationship – but that I can never envision me even considering to sleep around or seek sexual gratification behind the girls backs.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 435 ✭✭doopa


    No
    From an evolutionary perspective it seems humans are pretty much monogamous. The ratio of males to females is about 10 to 11. In species that allow polygamy this ratio deviates more i.e. say 7 males to 12 females. In more monogamous species it would be closer say for every 20 males there would be 21 females. Humans are pretty much monogamous.If we weren't then there would be fewer men as less of men would be required!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,770 ✭✭✭Bottle_of_Smoke


    Its a bit of a nonsense argument, end of the day if a guy cheats his girlfriend is gonna feel terrible and in many cases end the relationship

    Whether he has more genes that push him toward infidelity or not is irrelevant to her feelings.
    From an evolutionary perspective it seems humans are pretty much monogamous. The ratio of males to females is about 10 to 11. In species that allow polygamy this ratio deviates more i.e. say 7 males to 12 females. In more monogamous species it would be closer say for every 20 males there would be 21 females. Humans are pretty much monogamous.If we weren't then there would be fewer men as less of men would be required!

    Wouldn't pay any heed to that. In the other species it could just be the weaker males are killed off or their parents don't feed them as much as females.

    That wouldn't happen in modern human society so the runts make it through.

    Then other's suggest male size in relation to female (being bigger) suggests we shouldn't be monogomous.

    All these things are irrelevant to me. We aren't controlled by genes - they have an effect on our thinking of course, but sentience allows us to realise our spouse ain't gonna be pleased if we cheat.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,872 ✭✭✭strobe


    philologos wrote: »
    I wasn't expecting this from you admittedly. How can you compare adultery to this? A marriage doesn't imply chastity, it should be possible to be sexually satisfied in a marriage. Besides even if you weren't the principled thing to do would be to end the marriage if you really wanted to pursue a relationship elsewhere?

    Yeah 28064212 is right. I was going for something along the lines of "I can understand people doing it (cheating) but do not believe it is right". Not sure why I chose to be so cryptic rather than just saying that. While I don't think monogamy is for everyone, I think there is a responsibility for the people who don't wish to abide by it to be honest with anyone they become involved with about that fact.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,582 ✭✭✭finbarrk


    Not everybody tells the truth in these polls. It's not like' whats your favourite drink' or similar.
    I would speculate that the % is not correct on here.


This discussion has been closed.
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