RTE commence broadcasting free to air on satellite at 9e on KA band

seanp_25 · 26-05-2011 11:13PM

Any info on bitrates being used for the individual channels?

watty · 27-05-2011 07:24AM

The overall capacity is identical to one DTT Mux. The current content is just test loops, so bitrate is of no significance.

It's presumed that live TV will use the same transport stream as DTT to save cost of 2nd set of encoders and playout. This also makes using the satellite feed in "undecoded" Transport stream format very cheap and simple to provide backup feed to DTT sites and primary feed for self-help community TV fill-in DTT transmitters.

tmcw · 27-05-2011 08:51AM

Apogee wrote: »

If you're really desperate, you could get a Wildblue TRIA (Transmit Receive Integrated Assembly) - it's essentially the same thing as the Too-way device by CHPutney above. Make sure it's LEFT or LHCP. Be aware that it weights a bloody ton and requires 24-30v PSU to operate.

Ebay.com rather than ebay.ie
http://shop.ebay.com/i.html?_nkw=wildblue+tria&_sacat=0&_odkw=wildblue&_osacat=0&_trksid=p3286.c0.m270.l1313

I picked one up for about $30.

Hmmm, maybe I'll wait then, just drool over the pictures posted up here. I still need to decide on a HD receiver first anyway.

Seems like this is relatively new tech, nothing really suitable on the market for the Irish user who just needs to receive. Are we likely to see suitable LNBs similar in size to ones like the one below before the end of the year?

images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT3LQ1FN9wXtaJlPJcD8IkrnAIrNgfauKif0bD6O_8vKKsjAbmgdxF6_ek

images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT3LQ1FN9wXtaJlPJcD8IkrnAIrNgfauKif0bD6O_8vKKsjAbmgdxF6_ek

watty · 27-05-2011 09:53AM

Yes, I said so already.

As has Apogee.

dmm1000 · 27-05-2011 11:54AM

not sure if its too early to answer this question - but would anyone hazard a guess that Freesat HD equipped TVs will be able to tune into the frequencies that Saorsat currently / will be broadcasting on ?

Apogee · 27-05-2011 12:01PM

dmm1000 wrote: »

not sure if its too early to answer this question - but would anyone hazard a guess that Freesat HD equipped TVs will be able to tune into the frequencies that Saorsat currently / will be broadcasting on ?

In theory, yes. In practice, however, it may be difficult because the non-Freesat mode in most of the Freesat TVs is quite limited and certainly not user-friendly. Also, to the best of my knowledge, none of the Freesat TVs support Diseqc, so the TV couldn't switch between 28E and 9E automatically - you would have to do it manually or by RC.

Short answer: yes, but not without difficulty.

watty · 27-05-2011 12:12PM

There are two aspects..

1) If you ONLY want Saorsat, then with suitable dish and Ka-Band LNBF it will work via "other channels"/non-Freesat, but only true "Freesat HD", not HDTVs with "Freesat". Same applies to a setbox.

2) If you want Saorsat AND "Freesat HD" then you need a larger (solid, not mesh/perforated) dish and dual 28E / 9E Ku & Ka feeds and Diseqc switch. The receiver (TV or setbox) has to support non-Freesat AND Diseqc switching. Freesat must be on port 1. Or you can use a 2nd dish for Saorsat with Ka band LNBF and Diseqc. If you have more than one receiver or TV or a PVR, then a Multiswitch may be a better option than a Diseqc switch. Your receiver still needs to do Diseqc

http://www.saortv.info/satellite-saorsat/saorsat-reception/
http://www.techtir.ie/isaa/saorsat_saorview

dmm1000 · 27-05-2011 12:14PM

ISAA wrote: »

All,

Did a few tests today,
74cm dish :
KA band L.N.B :
Freguson averia decoder :

no feed horn, just straight waveguide flange.

Excellent pictures :

No need for a extra PSU.used standard voltage from rx, and showed up on spectrum, no problem.

Hi Gerry

do you mind me asking where could one source the part(s) that make up the LNB you used in the first pic (of the dish on wall) ?

bazza442 · 27-05-2011 12:15PM

does this mean you can tune into any free to air channel with this dish and box such as film 4?

watty · 27-05-2011 01:18PM

dmm1000 wrote: »

Hi Gerry

do you mind me asking where could one source the part(s) that make up the LNB you used in the first pic (of the dish on wall) ?

I spoke to Gerry on phone.

That is not a long term or sensible solution. There will shortly be proper LNBFs. It's unlikely that Ka-Sat will have live RTE on it before then, though I could be wrong.

That LNB has not got a mount (tied on) and it has no weatherproofing or horn.

Next week I'll test a suitable horn and see if a polarisation converter is possible (That's a plane LNB, for H or V signals, not for Left Circular Polarised).

Stinicker · 27-05-2011 02:44PM

bazza442 wrote: »

does this mean you can tune into any free to air channel with this dish and box such as film 4?

No, Saorsat when fully operational will only be a duplicate of whats available via Saorview and all that will be received from it will be RTÉ1, RTÉ2 HD, TV3, TG4, RTÉ News Now, 3e, RTÉ Jr and RTÉ 1 +1hr.

The British channels you speak of are available separately via Astra 28.2° East through the UK's Freesat platform and on Sky Television, both Sky TV and Freesat use the same Satellite position, Astra 28.2° East and the standard Sky minidish is used for reception of both platforms.

Saorsat by contrast will be broadcasting from KA-SAT at 9.0° East and will require a KA-Band LNB and a different dish.

Some satellite specialists will be able to receive both satellite positions from the same dish using multiple off set LNB's or using a specialist dish known as a Torodial Dish which allows for reception of different satellite positions on the same dish but with different LNB's.

Let me stress however that Saorsat is still in its infancy here and the KA-BAND satellite it will be broadcasting from was only launched into space over Christmas and now the RTE engineers are carrying out tests, which some of the enthusiasts here with specialised equipment have been able to receive. In due course when it launches to the consumer, equipment will be available. Until then its best to keep and eye on the boards to see what's happening and wait patiently until the equipment becomes available to the mass market.

watty · 27-05-2011 03:02PM

You don't need a Toriodal dish. A regular Triax will do 20 degree to 22 degree spread depending on size of dish and strength of satellites. They even make an adaptor specially for it. The Toriodal dish is for 45 degree to 50 degree spread, is much heavier and more expensive.

from http://www.saortv.info/satellite-saorsat/saorsat-reception/

Stinicker · 27-05-2011 03:16PM

watty wrote: »

You don't need a Toriodal dish. A regular Triax will do 20 degree to 22 degree spread depending on size of dish and strength of satellites. They even make an adaptor specially for it. The Toriodal dish is for 45 degree to 50 degree spread, is much heavier and more expensive.

from http://www.saortv.info/satellite-saorsat/saorsat-reception/

Oh I agree, a torodial is another way to do it though. I wonder will an LNB ever come to the market capable of receiving both KU and KA Bands? Or would it be an impossibility; if there did it would be handy for those on motorised systems who wanted to add Saorsat functionality to their rigs without adding another LNB.

Apogee · 27-05-2011 03:23PM

For the enthusiasts who can't wait, and for the few who pmed me looking for a source Ka-LNBs, they are Hughes branded LNBs.

So this...

... is this - note the part number. The guy who had these on ebay no longer stocks them. If someone else comes across a source?

It took me a few months to find a pic of the final unit in use, but they are used by the new Hylas service on 34w.

http://www.satellite-internet-forum.com/news/forum/europe-f181/

So if you could source one of these units, and remove the BUC, you'd have a proper feedhorn, depolariser and LNB assembly.

FWIW, the feedhorns and the depolarisers can be purchased individually from these units. It would be interesting to see if a standard 'WR42 Waveguide' Ka-LNB could be attached to the depolariser (without the need for the OMT). So then

Feedhorn

+ depolariser

+ LNB?

http://www.montanasatellitesupply.com/HughesNet_Satellite_Internet_Parts_s/67.htm

watty · 27-05-2011 04:35PM

You can regard Circular polarisation as H polarity delayed behind V polarity by 1/4 wavelength (or 90 degrees). Vice versa for the reverse handedness.

A piece of plastic will "slow" RF. (signals in Coax cables can be 0.66 of speed of light, the velocity factor), So if the plastic is shaped and orientated in the circular waveguide to slow V and not H (Rotate 90 degrees for reverse) then you get on one hand of circular polarisation a cancelling and on the other handedness only for example Horizontal. You can flair the 11mm or so pipe to rectangle to match the ka rectangular wave guide.

It can be done with screws in the wall of pipe. I will research!

I'll try Irish 1/2" (UK Metric 12.5mm might be better). It's 12.6mm ish Internal diameter. But may do for Ka-Band. A simple horn can be soldered to it at one end and the other flared to the Ka rectangular waveguide. Though I can maybe calculate the dimensions for focus rings.

A piece of shaped chopping board of enough length to slow "one polarisation" to convert Circular to horizontal (or vertical) is wedged in pipe...

Here is picture of maybe C-band using "pins" in circular waveguide to convert http://www.satsig.net/pointing/circular-polarisation-set-up.htm

Another part http://www.satellite-internet-forum.com/teflon-what-all-about-t1364.html

I don't think it has to be Teflon. I think any low loss at 20GHz plastic will work... But the screw/pin method may be easier.

watty · 27-05-2011 04:47PM

Stinicker wrote: »

Oh I agree, a torodial is another way to do it though. I wonder will an LNB ever come to the market capable of receiving both KU and KA Bands? Or would it be an impossibility; if there did it would be handy for those on motorised systems who wanted to add Saorsat functionality to their rigs without adding another LNB.

No.
Given that combo C-band / Ku-band LNBs are poor and not commercial I think a separate dish or mechanical changeover is the only Motorised solution.

Have you seen the weight, size and cost of T90 wavefrontier? Only desirable if you want more than 4 LNBs or more than 20 degrees.

Stinicker · 27-05-2011 06:20PM

watty wrote: »

Have you seen the weight, size and cost of T90 wavefrontier? Only desirable if you want more than 4 LNBs or more than 20 degrees.

I completely agree that for the average installation it would be overkill and the majority of satellites used by people here would be ranging from 9° East to 28.2° with 13, 16 and 19° East the most popular for Europeans here. I think the Torodial looks more aesthetically pleasing than the a standard Multi LNB dish however, especially if the front of my house was south facing I had no other choice I'd probably go for the torodial.

excollier · 27-05-2011 08:46PM

Has anyone considered that most satellite receivers are set for Ku and there may not be the ability in the tuner to go to the higher frequencies, ie above 12750? And yes I know that the incoming IF will be the same but when you scan or blind scan, you usually set the parameters to between 9750 and 12750, which is usually the upper limit
Same question for most satellite meters, mine is a Satlook Micro G2, and I know it's not S2 or HD, but has no facility for an LO setting higher than 12750, so unable even to detect Ka, just an observation, as Ka will be needing maybe 19000 - 20000

bog_trotter · 27-05-2011 08:51PM

Apogee wrote: »

In theory, yes. In practice, however, it may be difficult because the non-Freesat mode in most of the Freesat TVs is quite limited and certainly not user-friendly. Also, to the best of my knowledge, none of the Freesat TVs support Diseqc, so the TV couldn't switch between 28E and 9E automatically - you would have to do it manually or by RC.

Short answer: yes, but not without difficulty.

I have a Sony Bravia Kdl37w5810 which has Freesat and Diseqc and the non-Freesat mode is user-friendly enough. I think this model is no longer made but can still be found on Amazon.

Apogee · 27-05-2011 08:55PM

@excollier - The frequency the receiver or satlook displays is irrelevant. Just 'do the math' and work backwards.

Ka-band freq - Ka-LO + Ku-LO = Ku frequency which corresponds to Ka frequency at IF level.

The spectrum pics I post earlier are from a Satlook Digital which also has preset LOs. Just use the IF value instead e.g. 1435MHz for Saorsat with a Ka-LNB of LO 18.75GHz.

Apogee · 27-05-2011 09:05PM

bog_trotter wrote: »

I have a Sony Bravia Kdl37w5810 which has Freesat and Diseqc and the non-Freesat mode is user-friendly enough. I think this model is no longer made but can still be found on Amazon.

Have you ever tried it in non-Freesat mode? Could you post a few pics?

excollier · 27-05-2011 09:09PM

@ Apogee I understand that but your meter and receiver need to be able to do this too, not IF but the incoming frequency minus the LO, surely.
I am missing something here obviously, if you can't "ask" your meter or receiver to "look" for frequencies higher than 12750, then surely it will be impossible to search and receive it, it would be like asking a terrestrial receiver to search for IF frequencies.
Without the facility of a higher LO setting in the meter, then it will surely just fail to see the higher freqencies.
Anyway it's hypothetical, as I am receiving Saorview from two transmitters here, together with Freeview and Freesat.
I would not like to see lots of people to get tripped up by a simple oversight.
I will try it out when I get the correct LNB, and feed it to my Humax HDR, see what happens, if I am wrong, then you are right and happy days for us all

Apogee · 27-05-2011 09:12PM

No, you've got it wrong. ISAA has already posted a pic which shows the frequency on the meter or receiver is irrelevant.

excollier · 27-05-2011 09:15PM

Apogee wrote: »

No, you've got it wrong. ISAA has already posted a pic which shows the frequency on the meter or receiver is irrelevant.

Then I stand humbly corrected and look forward to getting hold of a Ka lnb to play with, thanks for your help.
I have the multifeed dish set up with an lnb slot for 9e waiting to be filled, can't wait.

Apogee · 27-05-2011 09:17PM

excollier wrote: »

Then I stand humbly corrected and look forward to getting hold of a Ka lnb to play with, thanks for your help.

No worries. It will work!

ISAA · 27-05-2011 09:56PM

Apogee wrote: »

No worries. It will work!

All,

I did the testing with the avaria fergusion rx, and the promax explorer II, the explorer on full spectrum, and the rx on blind scan.

The signal level with my metre :

72db,
C/N 4.2db.
dish : 74cm andrew offset.
No waveguide,
just WR 42 flange,
Signal level on receiver was 90%, and quality 80%, not bad for DIY install, with tape and cable ties

regards,

Gerry

watty · 28-05-2011 07:43AM

I pointed out last July that the only special bit is the LNB. Any DVB-S2 HD receiver will work, though having MHEG5 (Freesat HD) is an advantage. It will work will ANY LO in the receiver, just makes the displayed frequency wrong. Back in Analogue sat Era people used 9.75 GHz LO Enhanced LNBs on set-boxes with fixed internal 10.000 LO setting for Standard LNBs etc.

People have done same in past with C-Band.

ISAA wrote: »

No waveguide,
just WR 42 flange,
Signal level on receiver was 90%, and quality 80%, not bad for DIY install, with tape and cable ties

If you keep that up you might get struck off the ISAA approved installers

Not professional

Testing in 2001
Sky LNB 28E, 19E and 13E

John896 · 28-05-2011 11:55AM

If i got this from ebay uk item number,320701024946
What else would i need thanks.

bog_trotter · 28-05-2011 12:19PM

Apogee wrote: »

Have you ever tried it in non-Freesat mode? Could you post a few pics?

@ Apogee: yeah, I mainly use it in non-Freesat mode, two dishes, with Diseqc. I'd be happy to post you some screenshots, but unfortunately, especially given the launch this weekend of HD on RTE2...grrrr... it's off getting a new satellite board at the moment as it had been giving trouble on some frequencies (happily still under guarantee)

chputney · 28-05-2011 02:27PM

Here is a spectrum shot of KaSAT 9E Irish spot. The RTE signal is at 1015MHz. The other signal are Tooway. Since my LNB is 21.2GHz, the spectrum is inverted so the Tooway frequencies are lower.

RTE commence broadcasting free to air on satellite at 9e on KA band

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