Thunderbolt but no USB3. iMac.

psycjay · 25-05-2011 10:10PM

melekalikimaka wrote: »

i don think he'll ever be happy, seems to me like its turning into trolling

I'm sorry but I would expect more from a moderator. I am in no way trolling, I am presenting arguments and engaging in a debate. Is that not what generally happens on forums? I have tried to be as fair as possible and explain my position as best I can. Some argument just are very difficult to reach a conclusion.

How exactly am I trolling? did I but into a discussion with an off topic remark aimed just for the hell of it. Oh no wait, you did.

stimpson · 25-05-2011 10:24PM

psycjay wrote: »

Yes, they innovate, like sony do, and asus, and dell, and HP etc. Most manufacturers innovate.

Dell? Seriously?

As for HP I'm surprised they were honest enough to name this the envy.

My argument was and still is that I personally do not think they set the pace for others to follow. At the end of the day the makers of components such as processors and graphics card's etc are setting the pace anyway.

The most powerful machines are built for purpose (whatever that may be). Laptops are a different story, but yet I do not see that anybody has a machine that has the best of everything. The mpb can have a very quick i7 and a good graphics card and performs brilliantly on benchmark tests, but you can get machines with better graphics capabilities if you want that, or others with better connectivity if you want that.

But were not talking about raw speed. Were talking about being able to make a better computing experience by doing something different.

To say that any brand sets the pace is wrong.

No brand sets the pace for everything but Apple have produced many unique and successful technologies and productd over the past few years. To say they dont set the pace is either ignorant or trolling.

psycjay · 25-05-2011 10:39PM

stimpson wrote: »

No brand sets the pace for everything but Apple have produced many unique and successful technologies and productd over the past few years. To say they dont set the pace is either ignorant or trolling.

I agree that no brand sets the pace for everything.

I agree that Apple have produced many unique and successful technologies over the past few years.

I do not agree that saying that apple don't "set the pace" is ignorant.

You say no brand sets the pace for everything but apple sets the pace. So what is your criteria for "the pace" surely that is subjective, as I have said.

I also do not agree that saying apple don't set the pace is trolling. Again, you are the second person with a rather unique concept of what trolling is.

If you would prefer I no longer posted in this discussion because I disagree that apple "sets the pace" and give a rational as to why, then so be it. I will not loose any sleep.

stimpson · 25-05-2011 10:58PM

psycjay wrote: »

You say no brand sets the pace for everything but apple sets the pace. So what is your criteria for "the pace" surely that is subjective, as I have said.

You said they don't set the pace. You have been provided many examples of where they have done so. I never said they set the pace for everything or that they were the only company to innovate.

I also do not agree that saying apple don't set the pace is trolling. Again, you are the second person with a rather unique concept of what trolling is.

Your first post was a blatant troll. You have constantly tried to twist the discussion to make it fit you argument or argue over syntax rather than admit you may have been wrong.

If you would prefer I no longer posted in this discussion because I disagree that apple "sets the pace" and give a rational as to why, then so be it. I will not loose any sleep.

Not at all. It's quite entertaining watching you post contradictory statements.

psycjay · 25-05-2011 11:12PM

stimpson wrote: »

You said they don't set the pace. You have been provided many examples of where they have done so. I never said they set the pace for everything or that they were the only company to innovate.

Fair enough, what you are saying is that they sometimes set the pace through innovation but not all the time.

Your first post was a blatant troll.

I appologised to the OP about that post and proceeded to engage in the discussion. You were referring to my latter views as being either ignorant or trolling.

You have constantly tried to twist the discussion to make it fit you argument or argue over syntax rather than admit you may have been wrong.

I have questioned statements and clarified my own responses. My own failings in syntax has been questioned and I have been happy to clarify. I think its necessary to know exactly what we are discussing that is all. I have admitted that I was wrong when I thought it was apples decision not to include usb3.0. I also believe that I have reached conclusions with other posters where I took them up wrong.

stimpson · 25-05-2011 11:49PM

psycjay wrote: »

I appologised to the OP about that post and proceeded to engage in the discussion. You were referring to my latter views as being either ignorant or trolling.

When I said ignorant I meant that you may not be up to date with some of the tech.

I have questioned statements and clarified my own responses. My own failings in syntax has been questioned and I have been happy to clarify. I think its necessary to know exactly what we are discussing that is all. I have admitted that I was wrong when I thought it was apples decision not to include usb3.0. I also believe that I have reached conclusions with other posters where I took them up wrong.

What I have issues with is when you are provided with an extensive list of products/tech you simply say it's not setting the pace "in your view". That's the equivalent of putting your fingers in your ears and saying "la la la...I'm not listening".

Anyway, it's getting late and I have to extract my missus from her Ruby on Rails Project. I'm happy to continue tomorrow.

muggyog · 26-05-2011 12:42AM

This is great!

I see it going along these lines.

Keep it up lads.:D

condra · 26-05-2011 12:44AM

Trolling or not, the thread has gone off on a tangent with all the tit for tat stuff.

Still, the first couple of pages were most helpful. It looks like I'm not the only one who might be holding off on an iMac purchase until 2012.

Kavrocks · 26-05-2011 11:41AM

The only item hardware wise that I have seen come up in this thread in favour of Apple's innovation is Unibody Construction.

The Ipad is a "portable computer" in the sense that it stores and processes data so is the Iphone and all smartphones however I would be dubious about including them in this such discussion (psycjay has refined his to laptops and desktops and it started off about peripherals) as I don't see them as useful computers for getting work done and more just cool gadgets which can be used to pass the time playing games or showing off to your friends/colleagues.

On to the battery issue. Comparing the Macbook 13 with the Samsung 900 X 3A. Both wiegh the same, have the same screen size, have the same size SSD drive and yet the Samsung has a longer battery life than the Mac.
Comparing the Macbook Pro 13 to the SONY S Series we see they both have the same battery life. Comparing the Macbook Pro 15 to the Dell XPS 15 the Mac has 7 hours of battery life whilst the Sony has 9. Comparing the Macbook Pro 17 to the HP Pavillion DV7 the Mac has 7 hours of battery life whilst the HP has 7.5.
Yes Mac's have superior battery life over some other laptops but to say they have "Battery performance that can't be matched" is incorrect and I know the specs differ hugely between the laptops mentioned above but that is not the issue.

I also think iTunes (and all the other crap that comes with it) is the worst program ever made and despise it but that's just my opinion.

Talisman · 26-05-2011 03:30PM

psycjay wrote: »

Yes Op did ask for thoughts. A thought is "I think TB will be the main way to connect devices going forward" but you said "TB WILL be the main way to connect devices going forward". That is a statement of which there is implied truth. My reply was pointing out that you had no basis for this statement. That IMO was worth the bother.

Your paragraph began with the conclusion that..

“Thunderbolt will be supported by just about everybody within the next year or two.”

You then proceeded to base this conclusion on a number of premises, some facts, and some speculation. Facts + Speculation = Speculation. Therefore your conclusion was speculation.

I try to stay out of these pissing contests - learned my lesson in the Blu ray debate.

Here is something to consider when you're talking about Light Peak/Thunderbolt versus USB 3.0 and beyond - Electro Magnetic Interference (EMI). All electronic products need to be certified, higher speeds of data transfer over copper wire increase the level of EMI generated. Thunderbolt will be moving to optic fibre when the price of optic connectors fall to acceptable levels and won't be affected by EMI, unlike USB. As USB transfer speeds increase they will create more EMI and in a world where producing more environmentally friendly products is the way forward the acceptable levels of EMI to meet standards are revised down, not up.

This is not speculation - it is reality and all hardware manufacturers are aware of it.

ozt9vdujny3srf · 26-05-2011 04:31PM

Havent seen a Mac vs. PC flame war in a while, although admittedly this one was of poor quality.

440Hz · 26-05-2011 04:53PM

Less flaming, more on-topic discussion please! Or this thread will reach a rapid sell-by date.

Play nicely kids

muggyog · 26-05-2011 05:42PM

Nice one Talisman. Very astute assessment of Thunderbolt and USB3 (I've seen the light!).

Johnmb · 26-05-2011 09:43PM

condra wrote: »

Trolling or not, the thread has gone off on a tangent with all the tit for tat stuff.

Still, the first couple of pages were most helpful. It looks like I'm not the only one who might be holding off on an iMac purchase until 2012.

If I were thinking of buying an iMac, I would hold off until 2012, but not because of USB3. I'd be willing to bet that USB3 will not be included in any Macs next year either, although by then there should be a lot of TB peripherals available. But the main reason I'd hold off is because of Lion. That will have new innovations for an OS, and current models may not be able to take advantage of all of them, but the models designed and built specifically for Lion will be able to use all the new innovations. If not waiting until 2012, I'd at least wait until the first major refresh after Lion is released this summer, but I do think that it will be the 2012 refreshes that will work best with the new OS.

Oafley Jones · 26-05-2011 10:42PM

Johnmb wrote: »

If I were thinking of buying an iMac, I would hold off until 2012, but not because of USB3. I'd be willing to bet that USB3 will not be included in any Macs next year either, although by then there should be a lot of TB peripherals available. But the main reason I'd hold off is because of Lion. That will have new innovations for an OS, and current models may not be able to take advantage of all of them, but the models designed and built specifically for Lion will be able to use all the new innovations. If not waiting until 2012, I'd at least wait until the first major refresh after Lion is released this summer, but I do think that it will be the 2012 refreshes that will work best with the new OS.

10.7 is no reason to put off buying a new machine.

Johnmb · 26-05-2011 10:59PM

Oafley Jones wrote: »

10.7 is no reason to put off buying a new machine.

If you need it now, no it's not. But if it's just to treat yourself, there's a good chance current hardware won't make as good use of 10.7 as hardware specifically designed for it. I'd at least wait until Lion is released to see if there's anything about it that would need new hardware (thinking here of the iOS functionality supposedly being brought over to the Mac OS). By the sounds of it, the OP isn't in need of a new iMac now, he is waiting. imho, Lion is the only thing worth waiting for, USB3 won't happen.

Kavrocks · 26-05-2011 11:08PM

Johnmb wrote: »

USB3 won't happen.

Why not?

fasty · 27-05-2011 10:39AM

Johnmb wrote: »

But the main reason I'd hold off is because of Lion. That will have new innovations for an OS, and current models may not be able to take advantage of all of them, but the models designed and built specifically for Lion will be able to use all the new innovations. If not waiting until 2012, I'd at least wait until the first major refresh after Lion is released this summer, but I do think that it will be the 2012 refreshes that will work best with the new OS.

Johnmb wrote: »

If you need it now, no it's not. But if it's just to treat yourself, there's a good chance current hardware won't make as good use of 10.7 as hardware specifically designed for it. I'd at least wait until Lion is released to see if there's anything about it that would need new hardware (thinking here of the iOS functionality supposedly being brought over to the Mac OS). By the sounds of it, the OP isn't in need of a new iMac now, he is waiting. imho, Lion is the only thing worth waiting for, USB3 won't happen.

I don't really get this. Lion is being developed for and on existing Mac hardware. Hardware that supports the sort of multitouch gestures Lion will use for new features.

As far as other components like CPU, Memory, GPU, I/O... That's not going to change drastically in a year.

The best time to buy a Macbook Pro is now, then upgrade to Lion when it launches.

Johnmb · 27-05-2011 05:16PM

Kavrocks wrote: »

Why not?

Because Apple have gone with Thunderbolt, as per thread title. They won't change their mind that quickly (if ever).

Johnmb · 27-05-2011 05:21PM

fasty wrote: »

I don't really get this. Lion is being developed for and on existing Mac hardware. Hardware that supports the sort of multitouch gestures Lion will use for new features.

As far as other components like CPU, Memory, GPU, I/O... That's not going to change drastically in a year.

The best time to buy a Macbook Pro is now, then upgrade to Lion when it launches.

The OP is looking for an iMac, not a MacBook Pro. When Lion comes out, trackpads will be essential, not optional (from what I've heard). It wouldn't surprise me to see Apple design new ones to go with the iMacs that are better than the current ones, perhaps as a single unit with the keyboard. Regardless, the OP has already said he is waiting until 2012.

fasty · 27-05-2011 05:31PM

Yeah, I was confusing this with the MBP post. Anyway, Magic Trackpads are available NOW!

Fair enough the OP is waiting, I just don't think there's any point in waiting just for Lion. iMac, MBP, it doesn't matter.

Kavrocks · 27-05-2011 07:01PM

Johnmb wrote: »

Because Apple have gone with Thunderbolt, as per thread title. They won't change their mind that quickly (if ever).

And what do you say to Intel who expect Thunderbolt and USB3.0 to be implemented side by side?

Apple are not the be all and end all of the computing world. Apple have gone with Thunderbolt only at the moment for a few reasons and none of those reasons (that I'm aware of) rule out USB3.0 ever happening in Mac's and none of them rule out USB3.0 being used in other laptops or desktops.

Johnmb · 27-05-2011 08:52PM

Kavrocks wrote: »

And what do you say to Intel who expect Thunderbolt and USB3.0 to be implemented side by side?

You ask them what business it is of theirs, they aren't relevant to any decisions to use USB3.0

Apple are not the be all and end all of the computing world.

They are the be all and end all of iMacs, and since we were talking about an iMac then Apple are the be all and end all for the purposes of this thread.

Apple have gone with Thunderbolt only at the moment for a few reasons and none of those reasons (that I'm aware of) rule out USB3.0 ever happening in Mac's and none of them rule out USB3.0 being used in other laptops or desktops.

If they were going to run TB and USB3 side by side, they'd have done it with the latest refresh. For whatever reason, they decided to focus on TB as their next gen port. Apple can be quite stubborn, so they won't change unless it is absolutely necessary, and that won't be apparent within the next year even if it turns out to be the case (and I don't believe it will be with the weight of Intel behind TB)

Johnmb · 27-05-2011 08:56PM

fasty wrote: »

Yeah, I was confusing this with the MBP post. Anyway, Magic Trackpads are available NOW!

That's what I was referring to as the current ones. I think Apple will, at the very least, develop a bigger range to go with Lion over the coming year.

Fair enough the OP is waiting, I just don't think there's any point in waiting just for Lion. iMac, MBP, it doesn't matter.

No, not worth waiting just for Lion, but if you are waiting, you stand a better chance of getting something new thanks to Lion than you have of getting USB3, imo.

Kavrocks · 27-05-2011 09:06PM

Johnmb wrote: »

You ask them what business it is of theirs, they aren't relevant to any decisions to use USB3.0

It is certainly their business considering its implementation will depend on whether or not their processors provide support for it and they are very relevant to the decision.

They are the be all and end all of iMacs, and since we were talking about an iMac then Apple are the be all and end all for the purposes of this thread.

Of iMac's yes but with the way you said it it doesn't sound like you are referring solely to iMac's which is all I was pointing out.

If they were going to run TB and USB3 side by side, they'd have done it with the latest refresh. For whatever reason, they decided to focus on TB as their next gen port. Apple can be quite stubborn, so they won't change unless it is absolutely necessary, and that won't be apparent within the next year even if it turns out to be the case (and I don't believe it will be with the weight of Intel behind TB)

One reason they didn't implement USB3.0 in their iMac's is because it is not currently compatible with the Sandy Bridge processors in the new iMac's. It would have been totally redundant and a waste of money to be included at this stage. They aren't being stubborn they were being efficient.

Johnmb · 27-05-2011 09:49PM

Kavrocks wrote: »

Of iMac's yes but with the way you said it it doesn't sound like you are referring solely to iMac's which is all I was pointing out.

I clearly was only referring to iMacs. Read the sentence you edited my quote from.

condra · 28-05-2011 12:41AM

Wait a second. I was under the impression that USB3 was only omitted from the current iMacs because of Intel Chipset specifications, an issue which will be resolved in early 2012.

I assumed Apple would be happy to feature USB3 alongside TB as soon as possible.

Kavrocks · 28-05-2011 08:59AM

condra wrote: »

Wait a second. I was under the impression that USB3 was only omitted from the current iMacs because of Intel Chipset specifications, an issue which will be resolved in early 2012.

Exactly.

Talisman · 28-05-2011 04:23PM

Johnmb wrote: »

If they were going to run TB and USB3 side by side, they'd have done it with the latest refresh. For whatever reason, they decided to focus on TB as their next gen port. Apple can be quite stubborn, so they won't change unless it is absolutely necessary, and that won't be apparent within the next year even if it turns out to be the case (and I don't believe it will be with the weight of Intel behind TB)

For whatever reason being that Intel don't have native support for USB 3.0 in their current chipset, nor do AMD. Manufacturers are providing USB 3.0 support using third party controllers - Apple don't see the point in doing this as next year's chipsets from both AMD (Fusion) and Intel (Ivy Bridge) will have the native support.

When the hardware supports USB 3.0 then OS X will handle it - there have been reports of Hackintoshes using USB 3.0 since late 2010. All that was required was a hacked kernel extension so that the system could recognise the hardware.

Johnmb · 28-05-2011 05:59PM

condra wrote: »

Wait a second. I was under the impression that USB3 was only omitted from the current iMacs because of Intel Chipset specifications, an issue which will be resolved in early 2012.

I assumed Apple would be happy to feature USB3 alongside TB as soon as possible.

Nope, apparently Jobs doesn't consider it particularly relevant according to many reports from earlier this year/late last year. That's probably a much bigger obstacle to TB on an iMac than Intel chipset specs.

Thunderbolt but no USB3. iMac.

Comments