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Parents decide to bring up "genderless" child

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,207 ✭✭✭The King of Moo


    What stupid parents. Obviously unaware of the fact that while there is a difference between sex (purely biological) and gender (a broader cultural construct), the two are pretty hard to separate. If they want the child to choose whether they want to play with guns or dolls fair enough. But Storm's still gonna have a penis or a vagina and very soon (s)he's gonna get very confused. How is Storm gonna feel when (s)he realises that all the kids in school are boys and girls and (s)he's apparently not one or the other?
    Idiot parents wanting to score ideological points at the cost of their child's happiness and upbringing.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 11,581 ✭✭✭✭TheZohanS


    Indeed, but sexuality is only one aspect of gender. A big part, but still only one part.

    It was probably a poor choice of words, I meant sexuality as in encompassing gender too.

    The child will probably start school around 4 or 5, I'd say at that age a child would have a fairly good idea if they are male or female themselves and wouldn't need prompting from people around them, no? Maybe a parent can comment on that?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,673 ✭✭✭mahamageehad


    Also does anybody else think it sounds a little like parents who already have two sons, wished desperately for a daughter, didn't get one and are now making the best of it..??


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,146 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    It's been done before, approximately. I can't remember the names right now to do a Google and find the story for you, but something along the lines of twin boys born, some crazy accident happens to one boy, various operations, boy becomes girl, boy brought up as girl, birl is all confused through life, birl finally discovers what happened (possibly from reading some paper written by the doc that messed with his bits and realised it was about him/ her) and I think eventually tops themselves.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,944 ✭✭✭✭Links234


    I don't want to point a finger at you, or back you into a corner or anything of that nature, but am I right in thinking that you had/have gender-identity issues? Would you wish that on the child when it could be avoided?

    Apologies if I've remembered incorrectly.

    I think leaving the child to self-identify would reduce the possibility of them having gender identity issues, as they're not being forced into anything.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,439 ✭✭✭Kevin Duffy


    TheZohan wrote: »
    It was probably a poor choice of words, I meant sexuality as in encompassing gender too.

    The child will probably start school around 4 or 5, I'd say at that age a child would have a fairly good idea if they are male or female themselves and wouldn't need prompting from people around them, no? Maybe a parent can comment on that?

    But so, so much of your development, in all areas, comes before starting school. You can't hold their gender identity back until then. You can encourage balance and openness, but not actively hold it back, as the parents in this case seem to be saying they will.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,673 ✭✭✭mahamageehad


    This was just brought to my attention:
    "David Reimer (August 22, 1965 – May 4, 2004) was a Canadian man who was born as a healthy male, but was sexually reassigned and raised as female after his penis was accidentally destroyed during circumcision.[1] Psychologist John Money oversaw the case and reported the reassignment as successful, and as evidence that gender identity is primarily learned. Academic sexologist Milton Diamond later reported that Reimer never identified as female, and that he began living as male at age 15. Reimer later went public with his story to discourage similar medical practices. Eventually he committed suicide, due to suffering years of severe depression, financial instability and a dissolving marriage."

    He was reassigned gender at 22 months.
    Reimer's account, written with John Colapinto two decades later, described how - contrary to Money's reports - when living as Brenda, Reimer did not identify as a girl. He was ostracized and bullied by peers, and neither frilly dresses (which he was forced to wear during frigid Calgary winters) nor female hormones made him feel female. By the age of 13, Reimer was experiencing suicidal depression, and told his parents he would commit suicide if they made him see John Money again. In 1980, Reimer's parents told him the truth about his gender reassignment, following advice from Reimer's endocrinologist and psychiatrist. At 14, Reimer decided to assume a male gender identity, calling himself David. By 1997, Reimer had undergone treatment to reverse the reassignment, including testosterone injections, a double mastectomy, and two phalloplasty operations. He also married Jane Fontaine and became a stepfather to her three children.

    His case came to international attention in 1997 when he told his story to Milton Diamond, an academic sexologist who persuaded Reimer to allow him to report the outcome in order to dissuade physicians from treating other infants similarly. Soon after, Reimer went public with his story and John Colapinto published a widely disseminated and influential account in Rolling Stone magazine in December 1997.[4] They went on to elaborate the story in a book, As Nature Made Him: The Boy Who Was Raised as a Girl.[3]
    The Intersex Society of North America, which opposes involuntary sex reassignment, treats the story of David Peter Reimer as a cautionary tale about why the genitals of unconsenting minors should not be needlessly modified.[6]

    Thats a rough overview of the wiki page- full page here


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 113 ✭✭thisguy


    robinph wrote: »
    It's been done before, approximately. I can't remember the names right now to do a Google and find the story for you, but something along the lines of twin boys born, some crazy accident happens to one boy, various operations, boy becomes girl, boy brought up as girl, birl is all confused through life, birl finally discovers what happened (possibly from reading some paper written by the doc that messed with his bits and realised it was about him/ her) and I think eventually tops themselves.

    Yea I think I remember seeing something about that before, poor lad...perfect example to show that gender is fundamentally hard wired into a person, and the negative consequences that this could have for the child.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,439 ✭✭✭Kevin Duffy


    Links234 wrote: »
    I think leaving the child to self-identify would reduce the possibility of them having gender identity issues, as they're not being forced into anything.

    I honestly think you have that completely wrong. If the child has its own identity, that needs to be allowed to develop early, not later on. It's one thing to not force them into something, quite another to actively plan to impede their development, in any area.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,583 ✭✭✭mconigol


    “If you really want to get to know someone, you don’t ask what’s between their legs.’

    So not knowing if someone is male or female allows you to really get to know them how exactly??


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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,146 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    This was just brought to my attention:

    He was reassigned gender at 22 months.

    Thats a rough overview of the wiki page- full page here

    David Reimer, that's the chap I was thinking of, although remembered it a bit wrong.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,225 ✭✭✭JCDUB


    Links234 wrote: »
    I think leaving the child to self-identify would reduce the possibility of them having gender identity issues, as they're not being forced into anything.

    Self-identify? Identify what exactly? There is no mystery to what gender you are (unless you are hermaphrodite.) You are what you are.

    If you are not happy with this, of course you are free to change it when you are ready.

    But why project extremely complicated gender issues onto the child to satisfy your own craving to be "different" parents?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 11,581 ✭✭✭✭TheZohanS


    But so, so much of your development, in all areas, comes before starting school. You can't hold their gender identity back until then. You can encourage balance and openness, but not actively hold it back, as the parents in this case seem to be saying they will.

    Right I don't have kids so I can't speak with authority here and I'm probably going to get crucified for the analogy...but I have a wee mutt and he always peed like a female dog if he was inside (using his puppy pad,an asborbant pad on a tray) and when he was outside he did the same, honkered down and away he went. Then one day I brought him for a walk and he raised his little leg and peed against a bush, I was proud as punch and he didn't need any mentoring to know how pee like a male dog, it came naturally eventually....and before anyone starts yes I'm well aware babies aren't dogs!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,944 ✭✭✭✭Links234


    I honestly think you have that completely wrong. If the child has its own identity, that needs to be allowed to develop early, not later on. It's one thing to not force them into something, quite another to actively plan to impede their development, in any area.

    The child's identity will develop on it's own though, that sense of self, of whether we are male or female, is something we are born with. My identity developed in spite of my upbringing, so I don't think that the parents of this child are impeding anything. I'd bet the kid will turn out perfectly fine tbh.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 255 ✭✭Floodric


    TheZohan wrote: »
    Right I don't have kids so I can't speak with authority here and I'm probably going to get crucified for the analogy...but I have a wee mutt and he always peed like a female dog if he was inside (using his puppy pad,an asborbant pad on a tray) and when he was outside he did the same, honkered down and away he went. Then one day I brought him for a walk and he raised his little leg and peed against a bush, I was proud as punch and he didn't need any mentoring to know how pee like a male dog, it came naturally eventually....and before anyone starts yes I'm well aware babies aren't dogs!

    But dont all puppys wee like that, before they reach sexual maturity? I could be wrong


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 11,581 ✭✭✭✭TheZohanS


    Floodric wrote: »
    But dont all puppys wee like that, before they reach sexual maturity? I could be wrong


    Exactly, nature will out.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,439 ✭✭✭Kevin Duffy


    TheZohan wrote: »
    Right I don't have kids so I can't speak with authority here and I'm probably going to get crucified for the analogy...but I have a wee mutt and he always peed like a female dog if he was inside (using his puppy pad,an asborbant pad on a tray) and when he was outside he did the same, honkered down and away he went. Then one day I brought him for a walk and he raised his little leg and peed against a bush, I was proud as punch and he didn't need any mentoring to know how pee like a male dog, it came naturally eventually....and before anyone starts yes I'm well aware babies aren't dogs!

    Yes, but I'm gonna guess you didn't refuse to tell people what the puppy was, in the hope that it would make its own choice of píssing stance when the time came.

    FWIW, I don't buy into the argument that you have to have kids to comment on these things - we were all children, some of us are siblings, we are or might be parents,we have parents around us to see what they do etc, so we all know something about it and it is in our nature as humans. Being argued down for not having kids is facistic.
    Or, as Frasier put it so much better than I could, "I can't wait to have kids so I can win every argument". :)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,028 ✭✭✭✭--LOS--


    Police! This is TLL, we've been robbed....again!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,439 ✭✭✭Kevin Duffy


    Links234 wrote: »
    I'd bet the kid will turn out perfectly fine tbh.


    I hope you're right, but I doubt it. Not all conformity is good obviously, but I have a suspicion these kids will have a lot of issues, in particular the last one.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 11,581 ✭✭✭✭TheZohanS


    Yes, but I'm gonna guess you didn't refuse to tell people what the puppy was, in the hope that it would make its own choice of píssing stance when the time came.

    He has hairy balls and a willy, people could see.:D


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,229 ✭✭✭deirdre_dub


    Here's the deal. In terms of gender identity, the kid is most likely either male or female (there are other gender identities, but male or female are the two most likely by a long margin).

    Most likely, the kids gender identity can be determined by looking between its legs.

    However, that is not guaranteed to work in all cases. All the parents have done here is allowed some time and space for the kid to say whether he is male or she is female.

    Most likely, the kid will say something that is in agreement with what's between his/her legs. All the parents are doing is allowing space for the other answer to make itself known.

    It is, surely, more respectful to say to someone "who are you", rather than say to them "this is what I see, therefore you are that".


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,439 ✭✭✭Kevin Duffy


    TheZohan wrote: »
    He has hairy balls and a willy, people could see.:D

    Are we still talking about your puppy here?? :pac:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 27,252 ✭✭✭✭stovelid


    Let's not be harsh.

    There's a entertainment niche for fucked up androgynous kids at the minute. Being a twin and having ADHD helps though.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,439 ✭✭✭✭El Guapo!


    Here's the deal. In terms of gender identity, the kid is most likely either male or female (there are other gender identities, but male or female are the two most likely by a long margin).

    Most likely, the kids gender identity can be determined by looking between its legs.

    However, that is not guaranteed to work in all cases. All the parents have done here is allowed some time and space for the kid to say whether he is male or she is female.

    Most likely, the kid will say something that is in agreement with what's between his/her legs. All the parents are doing is allowing space for the other answer to make itself known.

    It is, surely, more respectful to say to someone "who are you", rather than say to them "this is what I see, therefore you are that".

    Tbh this is hippy BS in my opinion. You dont decide if your male or female. Your one or the other. If your not happy with that then your free to do whatever makes you happy as you get older.
    What the parents should've just done is been open and accepting to whatever the child grows up to be, and to let the kid know that whatever they choose is perfectly fine.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 27,252 ✭✭✭✭stovelid



    It is, surely, more respectful to say to someone "who are you", rather than say to them "this is what I see, therefore you are that".

    Never before has a post made me so want to flee to e-bay and buy as much gung-ho, gender-codifying, war toys for my sons.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,028 ✭✭✭✭--LOS--


    Gender is not a choice!






    But if it is I think I'm missing something....


    from between my legs


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,567 ✭✭✭delta_bravo


    Links234 wrote: »
    The child's identity will develop on it's own though, that sense of self, of whether we are male or female, is something we are born with. My identity developed in spite of my upbringing, so I don't think that the parents of this child are impeding anything. I'd bet the kid will turn out perfectly fine tbh.

    Definitely disagree with this. A persons identity is totally shaped and influenced by their family, peers and surroundings.

    Gender is something a child is born with and to deprive that from them makes absolutely no sense whatsoever and would be tantamount to neglect in my opinion.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,000 ✭✭✭spinandscribble


    As parents its their job to raise their kids to prepare for society as it is now, NOT their idealised notion of how society should be.

    The strange thing is that by not allowing their child to be who they naturally are, be it a girly boy or boyish girl of whatever, they're placing importance on gender, ie. it'll decide if its a boy or girl, as in i must be a boy coz i wanna dress that way.

    They're not doing this for their child's sake then, its a lesson for society. I'm disgusted that their place their ideals above the welfare of their child.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 11,581 ✭✭✭✭TheZohanS


    As parents its their job to raise their kids to prepare for society as it is now, NOT their idealised notion of how society should be.

    The strange thing is that by not allowing their child to be who they naturally are, be it a girly boy or boyish girl of whatever, they're placing importance on gender, ie. it'll decide if its a boy or girl, as in i must be a boy coz i wanna dress that way.

    They're not doing this for their child's sake then, its a lesson for society. I'm disgusted that their place their ideals above the welfare of their child.
    Kathy and David feel strongly about releasing their children from the constraints that society poses on males and females and want them to make their own decisions about how they act and look.

    They're not stopping the child from being who they naturally are, they're allowing the child to be whatever they choose to be. Chances as the child will see a toy car or a doll and make up their own mind, they won't need prompting.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,818 ✭✭✭Minstrel27


    What nonsense. Attention seeking bastards is all these parents are. And to do so at the expense of their child is wrong.


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