Parents decide to bring up "genderless" child

prinz

philologos wrote: »

Perhaps I'm the nutty one I don't know anymore.

It's not cool to acknowledge differences these days. The elephant in the room must be ignored and papered over at all costs.

silverspoon

I've seen stories about this kind of thing before, and it's interesting that these parents all choose to garner publicity for themselves in the process. Smacks of self-glorification to me really.

I completely agree with a poster above who said that instead of ensuring that gender isn't important for the child, this 'genderless' schtick is putting the focus entirely on gender.

For someone who feels that they are born into the wrong sex, how would have being raised genderless have alleviated the struggle that would naturally surround such an issue? Surely if one feels they are born to the wrong sex and gender, then there must have been a way of you identifying why this gender was wrong for you and identifying the natural gender you are. Probably talking in riddles here, and I'm not saying I can imagine what it's like to deal with transgender issues, but I'm struggling to see how this kind of approach would do or solve anything.

Surely the better approach, to be taken with all one's children, is to be accepting and open to letting them conduct their own experiments - i.e., dressing up, playing with all sorts of different toys, and try to stay away from using stereotypes - e.g., boys don't cry etc. The child must figure this stuff out for him/herself, not have experiments imposed on him/her. Anyway, if the child grow up and decides, I am a girl, that won't exactly circumvent the fact that if she has a male body, she's going to have to go through the whole gender reassignment thing. I don't see how growing up as 'neutral' does anything that just being an accepting and loving parent wouldn't, and furthermore, would it not just confuse the heck out of the poor thing?

prinz

deirdre_dub wrote: »

Would it not be "deception" if the parents said that the child is male (based on the presence of a pen1s), and the child later on in life said "no, actually, I'm transgender female"?

No it wouldn't. Just like it's not a deception to say your child is well behaved when they are if they later grow up to be a scumbag.

St.Spodo

I used to play football with really masculine young girls in my childhood. Similarly, a friend of mine used to play girly games with his sisters. By the time they reached pre-pubescence, they had adopted the cultural norms of girls and boys respectively. I would imagine this was due to biological reasons as opposed to any external pressures.

philologos

deirdre_dub wrote: »

Would it not be "deception" if the parents said that the child is male (based on the presence of a pen1s), and the child later on in life said "no, actually, I'm transgender female"?

Not at all, because that child is male. If the child wants to change their appearance in later life that is up to them.

Now that I think of it Romulus and Remus did just fine being raised as wolves.

deirdre_dub

Da Shins Kelly wrote: »

I don't think that what the parents are doing is right, because gender socialisation is important to an extent for identity purposes and all the rest.

Do you really think that what the parents are doing is going to stop that process of "gender socialisation"?!

However, the idea that a child will be completely without gender socialisation is ludicrous

Agreed! There is nothing that the parents are doing, or could do, short of locking the child in a windowless dungeon, that could stop that process!

As soon as the child goes into the playground, reads a book, sees a movie or goes to school, they are going to be bombarded with all sorts of different examples of gender socialisation. It's a part of growing up, and it's completely unavoidable.

Totally agreed! As soon as the child goes into the playground, reads a book, sees a movie, or goes to school, he/she is going to know, instinctively, which group he/she belongs to.

deirdre_dub

philologos wrote: »

Not at all, because that child is male. If the child wants to change their appearance in later life that is up to them.

Being transgendered isn't a "decision to change appearance".

As I said earlier on, I neither choose nor want to be a woman. I don't take hormones because I "want to change appearance" - I take hormones because I need them to function properly. My brain runs on estrogen - as someone else put it, "having testosterone in my system is like putting deisel into a petrol car".

So, no, if the child later on says that they are transgendered female, then you assertion that the "child is male" is, in fact, in a most extremely important way, false.

El Guapo!

@Deirdredub-
To be perfectly honest, and I don't want to offend you but I think your talking out of your arse.
Your making excuses for something that should not be excused. These parents are setting their child up for a life of torment and bullying just to satisfy their hippy egos. And you try and say its not their fault its the fault of the bully.

Yes the bully shouldn't be doing what they are doing but its gonna happen and as a parent its your job to protect the kid. Its like saying "I send my son to school in a tutu and high-heels and a stick on tail and he gets bullied, but its not my fault, the bully is to blame". Total bollocks.

Your contradicting yourself all the time. You're defending this purely because of the situation you're in. You'd be the very first person to say that nobody chooses to be gay or to have gender issues and they're born that way-So by that reasoning this kid will turn out whatever way it's destined to turn out regardless of what their hippy parents do. So why should they just put the child up for public ridicule??
It's not fair and the only loser here is the child.

philologos

deirdre_dub: That's your opinion and if you want to change your appearance and how you identify that's your prerogative. People will differ in terms of how they understand gender and sex ultimately though.

AudreyHepburn

Links234 wrote: »

do you mean to suggest that a child brought up without strictly defined gender roles could turn out to be transgender?

Yes this is entirely possible, in fact I have read of many such cases. This Eurovision this year featured Dana International, a transexual/transgender woman from Israel who was born male but is now female.

To me I can certainly see where the parents are coming from in their decision.

As I see they are saying ' we are not going to force an indentity on you, we will let you decide for yourself'. And allowing a person to decide who they are, as opposed to who society says they should be, is never a bad thing.

Forcing some-one to be male when they feel they are female or vice aversa is akin to trying to force some-one who is gay to be straight.

sensibleken

philologos wrote: »

Not at all, because that child is male. If the child wants to change their appearance in later life that is up to them.

Now that I think of it Romulus and Remus did just fine being raised as wolves.

apart from the murder you mean

philologos

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

Forcing some-one to be male when they feel they are female or vice aversa is akin to trying to force some-one who is gay to be straight.

This is about forcing someone not to know what sex they were born as or introducing a lot of confusion where none is necessary. It's not about "not forcing anything". People are free to make choices but to lie to people about who they are is crossing the line.

sensibleken: A bit of light humour never did anyone any harm.

AudreyHepburn

deirdre_dub wrote: »

Would it not be "deception" if the parents said that the child is male (based on the presence of a pen1s), and the child later on in life said "no, actually, I'm transgender female"?

It would certainly be a case of the parents forcing the child to be something he or she isn't.

Physically you are born one or the other but emotionally and mentally it is a whole different kettle of fish.

prinz

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

Forcing some-one to be male when they feel they are female or vice aversa is akin to trying to force some-one who is gay to be straight.

....and just how long after birth did Storm announce that it felt male/female as opposed to female/male?

silverspoon

Dean09 wrote: »

You'd be the very first person to say that nobody chooses to be gay or to have gender issues and they're born that way-So by that reasoning this kid will turn out whatever way it's destined to turn out regardless of what their hippy parents do. So why should they just put the child up for public ridicule??
It's not fair and the only loser here is the child.

I think a bit of your post is kind of harsh, but I agree completely with this. Raising one's child gender neutral won't do anything to pervert the natural course of a person's realisation that he/she is gay/straight, or identifies with being male/female. If someone is gay, they're gay. End of. If someone is born male, but identifies herself as female, that's that. You are who you are, and no amount of bullsh*t parenting is going to change that. Children who struggle with issues of sexuality/gender aren't going to have their lives made any easier by this androgyny experiment. None of us can escape our sexual orientation or gender identification, so I don't see how being 'It' until puberty is realised will be anything but destructive for the child.

AudreyHepburn

philologos wrote: »

This is about forcing someone not to know what sex they were born as or introducing a lot of confusion where none is necessary. It's not about "not forcing anything". People are free to make choices but to lie to people about who they are is crossing the line.

sensibleken: A bit of light humour never did anyone any harm.

Yes exactly, by not telling the child he or she is a girl or boy they are allowing him or her to decide for themselves.

To be honest I think a lot of the negativity to do with this is simply because people think its 'weird' or 'sick' etc, not out of concern for the child.

AudreyHepburn

prinz wrote: »

....and just how long after birth did Storm announce that it felt male/female as opposed to female/male?

Em.....I don't think he or she has yet.

But imo he/she won't ever just be it because he/she will know for him/herself what they are.

philologos

AudreyHepburn: but their sex is something very significant to who they are. I could imagine warping something as significant as this will impede child development.

prinz

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

Em.....I don't think he or she has yet..

So just what are they forcing on the kid then? If the kid is biologically male it will most likely want to be male and the same if the kid is female. What you are saying is that the tiniest percentage chance that the kid doesn't feel whatever biological sex they are is grounds enough to hide their sex from the world? What else? What if the kid doesn't like the name Storm? What if she/he grows up to hate it? What's the solution? Don't name any kids? How dare they force that name on it? Or you know, the kid will grow up and know all by itself if it wants to keep the name or change it...

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

But imo he/she won't ever just be it because he/she will know for him/herself what they are.

Doesn't that happen now anyway? So what's the difference?

sensibleken

philologos wrote: »

deirdre_dub: That's your opinion and if you want to change your appearance and how you identify that's your prerogative. People will differ in terms of how they understand gender and sex ultimately though.

Its not that simple.

Transgender does not have anything to do with interpretation of gender. It is a medical condition whereby the brain is physically a different gender to that of the rest of the body.

Although I don't think the issue has much to do with the story as the kid has not been clasified transgender nor is it possible to do that for quite a while. A liberal approach to traditional gender roles is healthy, however I believe this may lead the child to more confusion

AudreyHepburn

prinz wrote: »

So just what are they forcing on the kid then?

Nothing, that's my point.

If the kid is bioligically male it will most likely want to be male and the same if the kid is female.

Not necessarily as you well know. You know what it means to be transgender/transexual I assume?

What you are saying is that the tiniest percentage chance that the kid doesn't feel whatever biological sex they are is grounds enough to hide their sex from the world? What else? What if the kid doesn't like the name Storm? What if she/he grows up to hate it? What's the solution? Don't name any kids?

Well then she could change her name when she's old enough.

Look there is no point in stating conclusively what sort of outcome this will have because we simply don't know.

I think the child will be fine, you think not but we cannot know.

Doesn't that happen now anyway? So what's the difference?

I don't understand what you're asking me?

Links234

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

Yes this is entirely possible, in fact I have read of many such cases. This Eurovision this year featured Dana International, a transexual/transgender woman from Israel who was born male but is now female.

Did she have an upbringing like the child in this case though?

AudreyHepburn

philologos wrote: »

AudreyHepburn: but their sex is something very significant to who they are. I could imagine warping something as significant as this will impede child development.

How is letting the child decide warping it?

AudreyHepburn

Links234 wrote: »

Did she have an upbringing like the child in this case though?

That I don't know. I'll look it up.

Edit: I see nothing to say what kind of childhood she had but I gather a fairly normal one in so far as was possible for a a little biy who was actuallu a girl.

steddyeddy

Their rasing their child as an experiment. It comes pretty close to child abuse imo.

deirdre_dub

philologos wrote: »

deirdre_dub: That's your opinion and if you want to change your appearance and how you identify that's your prerogative. People will differ in terms of how they understand gender and sex ultimately though.

It's not an opinion - it is a biological fact that gender isn't a binary. It is a fact of nature that sometimes, the development of a child's gender in the womb doesn't go according to plan.

I've included links above to articles on intersexism, and to an article describing an XY woman who has given birth, if you are interested.

philologos

You're conflating sex (biology) and gender (identity).

Links234

Oh, and another, people are going on about the child being bullied. This is the same kinda thing that comes up with the question of same sex couples adopting is posed... oh no! the kid will be bullied! that's not really on the ball, it's a bit more paranoia of something different.

the sky isn't gonna fall people

Dean820

Action Man & Barbie are genderless and they're pretty cool.

Duggy747

Using your own child for a pointless social experiment and denying it's own identity in society, classy.

This stupidity won't last long when the kid realises what the difference between a male and a female is and which group it'll put itself into.

Genderless child, what a load of bullshìt.