Respect for Pickpockets?

Coriolanus · 24-05-2011 03:22PM

Seachmall wrote: »

The article that inspired this post,

http://www.slate.com/id/2286010/

Harvard economists can be surprisingly stupid.

nobody3 · 24-05-2011 03:22PM

Seachmall wrote: »

The world ain't black and white. People have different reasons for doing different things.

It's easier to demonize anyone who doesn't follow your moral code then understand what and why they do things.

Its obvious you haven't been the victim of one of these crooks.

People have choices to make. Pickpockets choose a life of crime, there cannot be a moral code as they are doing an immoral act.

Seachmall · 24-05-2011 03:24PM

hullaballoo wrote: »

Do you also admire drug dealers for their business acumen?

Some I do, is that a problem?

AnonoBoy wrote:

Tell us the story of how you got accused of pickpocketing.

I was leaving a club, a guy pointed a finger at me, a bouncer grabbed me and I spent about 30 minutes talking to gardai. Not that interesting.

nobody3 wrote:

Its obvious you haven't been the victim of one of these crooks

I have, at least once and possibly twice.

there cannot be a moral code as they are doing an immoral act.

I disagree. A person who steals a wallet isn't morally on-par with someone who slaughters a family. I'm sure such a petty-thief would find that a terrible crime even if he justifies his own. It's not a "Break one moral; break them all" situation. People may rationalize crime against one person (punching a man) but find it disgusting against another (punching a woman).

listermint · 24-05-2011 03:25PM

hullaballoo wrote: »

Sounds fantastic.

I think you mean fantastical

Paparazzo · 24-05-2011 03:28PM

I was shocked to see plenty of people had respect for that hacker because of the "skill" involved. Why not for the pickpocket? Requires more skill and definitely more balls.

Laisurg · 24-05-2011 03:30PM

Seachmall wrote: »

I'm serious, many do follow such a code. They don't target woman or drunks (those are known as 'bag dippers' and 'lushes' respectively), they don't take anything but money (although I imagine some take cards) and they only target men who look like they've money.

The ones who work this way are known as 'Canons'.

Hollywood seems to have embraced pickpocketing as a sort of respectable lifestyle, and skillful crime in general (look at any film about Conmen). I'm just curious if anybody shares the opinion.

Well that doesn't apply to Ireland, only pickpockets i've ever seen have looked like they're from romania or bulgaria and i've only ever seen them chuck their hands into a womans bag and leg it, the ones in italy pickpocket anyone, they would pick pocket 2 euro, theres no such thing as the pickpockets code or any of that lark, and when i was like 7 i used to actually take my dads wallet out of his pocket quite easily when i wanted to go get some sweets so it's not really that hard to be honest.

ejmaztec · 24-05-2011 03:30PM

We should have a limited introduction of Sharia law, for hackers and pick-pockets.

hullaballoo · 24-05-2011 03:32PM

Seachmall wrote: »

Some I do, is that a problem?

Ya I think so.

I'm just testing a theory here, but do you also admire the organisation and planning abilities needed for bank robbery?

Seachmall · 24-05-2011 03:37PM

hullaballoo wrote: »

Ya I think so.

I'm just testing a theory here, but do you also admire the organisation and planning abilities needed for bank robbery?

Yep.

Doesn't mean I appreciate the crime.

I admire the dexterity of a pickpocket in the same sense I admire the dexterity of a magician.
I admire the technical skills of a bomb-maker in the same I admire the technical skill of a electrician.
I admire the business mind of a drug dealer in the same sense I admire the business mind of an entrepreneur.
I admire the organisation and planning abilities of a bank robber in the same sense I admire the organisation and planning abilities of a manager.

In fact I find it hypocritical to appreciate one without appreciating the other. I find all the crimes up there despicable but I can appreciate the skills and knowledge they take without respecting their uses, maybe that's just me though.

Elle Collins · 24-05-2011 03:40PM

I've been known to pickpocket men who get into rubbing up too close to me in pubs/clubs. I've done it a couple of times and get a great thrill and a deep satisfaction out of it. Moral of the story for the perves of this world: You'd want to watch who you're letchin over - you might find yourself goin home broke.

problemchimp · 24-05-2011 03:54PM

Seachmall wrote: »

So there's noone appreciates the skill?

Obviously it's theft and I'm not asking anyone to excuse that I'm just wondering if anybody respects the methods, despite the criminality.

Firing a high callibre gun to blow a young psni officers head off and leaving his family destroyed also takes a lot of skill. Should we admire that skill and convenientley forget the actual crime?

Seachmall · 24-05-2011 03:56PM

problemchimp wrote: »

Firing a high callibre gun to blow a young psni officers head off and leaving his family destroyed also takes a lot of skill. Should we admire that skill and convenientley forget the actual crime?

Don't think I asked that at all, in fact I specifically addressed it in your quote.

Nice strawman though.

AnonoBoy · 24-05-2011 04:04PM

Ah for gawd's sake Seachmall. Tell us why you were accused of pickpocketing?

PLEASE!!!!!!

problemchimp · 24-05-2011 04:06PM

Seachmall wrote: »

Don't think I asked that at all, in fact I specifically addressed it in your quote.

Nice strawman though.

My point is that I find it impossible to seperate the so called skill of the crime from the crime itself and as You can seperate them, I used an extreme example to see how far you could go with your respect.
Sorry, don't know what a strawman is.

Seachmall · 24-05-2011 04:06PM

AnonoBoy wrote: »

Ah for gawd's sake Seachmall. Tell us why you were accused of pickpocketing?

PLEASE!!!!!!

Random accusation as far as I'm aware.

problemchimp · 24-05-2011 04:06PM

Seachmall wrote: »

Don't think I asked that at all, in fact I specifically addressed it in your quote.

Nice strawman though.

My point is that I find it impossible to seperate the so called skill of the crime from the crime itself and as you can seperate them, I used an extreme example to see how far you could go with your respect.
Sorry, don't know what a strawman is.

Dravokivich · 24-05-2011 04:07PM

Elle Collins wrote: »

I've been known to pickpocket men who get into rubbing up too close to me in pubs/clubs. I've done it a couple of times and get a great thrill and a deep satisfaction out of it. Moral of the story for the perves of this world: You'd want to watch who you're letchin over - you might find yourself goin home broke.

:cool:

problemchimp · 24-05-2011 04:07PM

Sorry, posted twice by mistake.

jimthemental · 24-05-2011 04:08PM

I've lifted my friends wallets in pubs and order a round from my own money then hand them back their wallet with the pint. I always get a laugh for it.

Guy I know was being interviewed by RTE after winning the Paddy Power Grehound Derby and had his wallet taken while talking!

ejmaztec · 24-05-2011 04:11PM

Seachmall wrote: »

Random accusation as far as I'm aware.

As a matter of interest, what size is the gap between your eyes?

Seachmall · 24-05-2011 04:12PM

problemchimp wrote: »

My point is that I find it impossible to seperate the so called skill of the crime from the crime itself

That's all I'm asking.

...as You can seperate them, I used an extreme example to see how far you could go with your respect.

Can I respect an accurate shot? Yep. The same way I respect the skill of a target shooter. I still think the shooter should be hung from his balls.

Skills are independent from those who use them. In my opinion you can't differentiate between the skills used by a pickpocket and magician. If you respect one your respect both, skill sets don't concern themselves with uses and the morals of those who use them.

In other words you shouldn't judge someone by what they know or what skills they have, instead you should judge them on how they uses those skills.

Sorry, don't know what a strawman is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strawman_argument

Liam Byrne · 24-05-2011 04:13PM

Seachmall wrote: »

Yep.

Doesn't mean I appreciate the crime.

How about the strength and fitness of the thug who beats you senseless?
Or the sexual stamina of the bas***d who rapes your sister?

Where do you draw your line?

AnonoBoy · 24-05-2011 04:13PM

Seachmall wrote: »

Random accusation as far as I'm aware.

I was wrong.

That's not interesting at all.

Seachmall · 24-05-2011 04:20PM

Liam Byrne wrote: »

How about the strength and fitness of the thug who beats you senseless?
Or the sexual stamina of the bas***d who rapes your sister?

Where do you draw your line?

Seriously? Do you have any idea what this thread is about or why I differentiate between skills and those who utilize them?

A skill is a tool, like a hammer. If you can't differentiate between a hammer and a builder you have serious issues.

I'm not asking anyone to judge the criminals, I'm asking them if they can differentiate between the criminal and his skills independent of the criminals intentions and respect one without justifying the other.

You can't. Clearly.

problemchimp · 24-05-2011 04:25PM

Seachmall wrote: »

Seriously? Do you have any idea what this thread is about or why I differentiate between skills and those who utilize them?

A skill is a tool, like a hammer. If you can't differentiate between a hammer and a builder you have serious issues.

I'm not asking anyone to judge the criminals, I'm asking them if they can differentiate between the criminal and his skills independent of the criminals intentions and respect one without justifying the other.

You can't. Clearly.

I take your point but Liam Byrne asks the question of using, let's say, Karate to overcome your sister and then rape her violently. Could you admire his martial arts skills in that situation?

Liam Byrne · 24-05-2011 04:25PM

Seachmall wrote: »

Seriously? Do you have any idea what this thread is about or why I differentiate between skills and those who utilize them?

A skill is a tool, like a hammer. If you can't differentiate between a hammer and a builder you have serious issues.

I'm not asking anyone to judge the criminals, I'm asking them if they can differentiate between the criminal and his skills independent of the criminals intentions and respect one without justifying the other.

You can't. Clearly.

I didn't claim to be able to (or even want to) distinguish between them.

You're the one who said that you could, so I gave you two perfect examples - can you or can you not ?

Sexual technique is a skill.
Keeping optimum fitness and fighting technique is a skill (unless you're claiming that professional boxers have no skills?)

So I'll ask again - where do you draw YOUR line?

Seachmall · 24-05-2011 04:33PM

Liam Byrne wrote: »

I didn't claim to be able to (or even want to) distinguish between them.

Great. There's my answer. Thanks.

You're the one who said that you could, so I gave you two perfect examples - can you or can you not

For the first one: Yes.
For the rape one: No, I don't think sexual stamina is much of skill as it is a trait. But if he could backflip on top of her then that's pretty cool.

Lets break this down:

Skill : Learning how to box.
Use A : Beating up a defenseless kid.
Use B : Competitive Boxing.

I can respect the skill.
I can't justify it's use in Use A, nor do I respect the user.
I can justify it's use in Use B, I can respect the user in this instance.

Regardless if someone learnt the Skill for Use A or Use B it is the same skill and thus is respected and admired independently of it's use.

In summary: Skills don't require moral justifications; actions do.

So let me ask you a question, do you admire the Boxer's skill? If you do, does that mean your respect the Bully's skill (lets assume the victim is able to box himself and has finally stood up for himself)?

If not how do you differentiate between the skills (not the practitioner)? Remember that they're the exact same.

Liam Byrne · 24-05-2011 04:45PM

Seachmall wrote: »

Great. There's my answer. Thanks.

For the first one: Yes.
For the rape one: No, I don't think sexual stamina is much of skill as it is a trait. But if he could backflip on top of her then that's pretty cool.

Lets break this down:

Skill : Learning how to box.
Use A : Beating up a defenceless kid.
Use B : Competitive Boxing.

.......lets assume the victim is able to box himself and has finally stood up for himself

There's no need to be patronising - I know exactly what you mean.

But here's what you're missing - or worse, you alluded to it in your "let's assume the victim was ready and able", but you asked us to overlook it - the challenge/difficulty level presented by the opponent. You started off with "defenceless kid" and then changed to "able and ready" precisely because you couldn't follow through - your own brain / conscience wouldn't allow it because you KNOW the argument doesn't hold up.

Would, say, Gareth Bale need to use much skill to get a ball past me ?
No, even if I was ready for him.

Would a pickpocket need extra skill if you knew they were a pickpocket and were ready for their intended attack ?

So the pickpocket is like the pathetic cowardly schoolyard bully striking with a sucker punch.

If they held up a sign saying "I'm a pickpocket" and STILL managed to get away with it, THEN you might have an argument.

jan shyr · 24-05-2011 04:55PM

So there's noone appreciates the skill?

This particular skill comes from practice, training, and experience of stealing and robbing. I have no respect for these people or their skill.

I can imagine myself feeling great respect towards a thief, and even patting him/her on a shoulder and saying "Nice steal!".

Seachmall · 24-05-2011 04:58PM

Liam Byrne wrote: »

There's no need to be patronising - I know exactly what you mean.

Unintentional, apologies if it came across that way.

But here's what you're missing - the challenge/difficulty level presented by the opponent.

If you put Ali (from his prime) in a ring with an absolute beginner he will obviously win. You will however still see flawless technique, regardless of his opponent you will clearly see skill.

If they held up a sign saying "I'm a pickpocket" and STILL managed to get away with it, THEN you might have an argument.

Here's a blog by pickpocket expert Bob Arno:

Thief Hunters

In it Bob and his wife travel the world locating and interview pickpockets. On their travels they look to be targeted and do what they need to see the skill levels of these pickpockets. They then interview them. Dozens of the posts note how the thieves had taken items without them knowing, despite the the fact Bob and his wife know that they're thieves.

Afterwards Bob tells them he's also a pickpocket and nonchalantly robs from them while they're aware of what he's doing, this is how he builds rapport to get interviews. He also mentions how he often robs them of their stolen goods and returns them to their rightful owner.

They are all extremely skilled although Bob is arguably the best in the world.

The actual thieves use the same skills to rob their targets as they do Bob (many of them don't know who Bob is otherwise I'd imagine they'd leave not wanting to be filmed). Their skill level is the same regardless of the target and their techniques are flawless.

Do you have respect for Bob's ability to pickpockets (he's not a criminal, he's an entertainer and police advisor)?
The criminals use the same skills (although they're arguably not as skilled), do you have respect for their abilities to steal given they're more or less the same as Bob's?

Don't judge the skill because of how it is [mis]used.

Respect for Pickpockets?

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