Consequences of the Lisbon Treaty

zephyrz · 24-05-2011 01:22AM #1

I for one was not old enough to vote at the time of the two referendums held for the lisbon treaty? I remember at the time the two main parties were in favour of it even though the people voted no the first time around! This to me seems very undemocratic!

So, basically what do you think are the consequences of the lisbon treaty for the future of Ireland? Please stay on topic. Cheers

starbelgrade · 24-05-2011 01:23AM

zephyrz wrote: »

Please stay on topic.

I think Man United will win the Champions League on Saturday.

OutlawPete · 24-05-2011 01:23AM

zephyrz wrote: »

What do you think are the consequences of the lisbon treaty for the future of Ireland?

If you don't like our answers, will you keeping asking us the same question again until you do?

mikemac · 24-05-2011 01:25AM

Minimum wage could have been €1.20 or so if we rejected it :eek:

The posters said so and they would not lie

zephyrz · 24-05-2011 01:26AM

OutlawPete wrote: »

If you don't like our answers, will you keeping asking us the same question again until you do?

I'm open for suggestions

OutlawPete · 24-05-2011 01:29AM

zephyrz wrote: »

I'm open for suggestions

I'm only kidding, as that's what our Government did, in effect

LighterGuy · 24-05-2011 01:33AM

zephyrz wrote: »

I for one was not old enough to vote at the time of the two referendums held for the lisbon treaty? I remember at the time the two main parties were in favour of it even though the people voted no the first time around! This to me seems very undemocratic!

communism my friend. To have a vote and for it to be rejected, But to hold another vote to get the right "result" ...

zephyrz · 24-05-2011 01:33AM

OutlawPete wrote: »

I'm only kidding, as that's what our Government did, in effect

Oh rite yeah, I always wondered how many times they would hold a referendum until we finally submitted!

K-9 · 24-05-2011 01:38AM

I'm head of the European Army.

Consequences of Lisbon? Not much. Sure if Europe had power over Corporation tax they'd just take it, no argument required. If France had lower Corporation tax, we'd have no multi nationals and CT wouldn't be an issue, ever!

Consequences of Globalism and "markets can be controlled?" The rich get richer and the poor, poorer.

Referendums? People get swayed by whoever shouts loudest.

bc dub · 24-05-2011 01:41AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7sED3iApAvE

suicide_circus · 24-05-2011 01:42AM

First time round, no one knew what they were voting and the opposite campaigned hard and used scare tactics while the government and the pro side were complacent and did fook all. The motion.was rejected.

Second time round, no one knew what they were voting for, the opposition stuck to their story while the pro side, government and political elite used immense scare tactics. The electorate, so perplexed by having to vote again and brow beaten by forces abroad and at home, changed their tune.

I am still unsure about the contents of the Lisbon treaty. I'm not stupid or lazy but I have work, family, friends and my life and little time to grapple with a lengthy and deliberately unintelligible legal document.

I dont know what relation the Lisbon treaty has to our present situation but as a casual student of history I will be very interested to learn the place Lisbon earns in the story of modern Irish politics, particularly the question of having to vote twice on the same thing and its impact on this democratic republic of ours.

zephyrz · 24-05-2011 01:43AM

Is it true the french and Dutch said no to the European constitution, and the EU just renamed it the lisbon treaty, so only Ireland would have to hold a referendum to accept it?

Senna · 24-05-2011 01:46AM

The first time around people were voting NO because they didn't want their children to be drafted into the army, they didn't want the minimum wage cut to nothing and they thought abortions would be mandatory

.

I've no problem with the NO vote, as long as its for the right reasons.

twinQuins · 24-05-2011 01:48AM

Can someone explain to me how voting is undemocratic?

Guy:Incognito · 24-05-2011 01:50AM

feelingstressed wrote: »

Minimum wage could have been €1.20 or so if we rejected it :eek:

The posters said so and they would not lie

Was that not what the no side said it would drop to if it was passed?

Senna · 24-05-2011 01:50AM

twinQuins wrote: »

Can someone explain to me how voting is undemocratic?

Holding new elections again and again until the "correct" side wins is undemocratic.

zephyrz · 24-05-2011 01:52AM

twinQuins wrote: »

Can someone explain to me how voting is undemocratic?

Voting in itself obviously isn't undemocratic! But ignoring the peoples decision because its not the answer you want to hear is undemocratic! Whether or not the lisbon treaty is good or not, I just have problems with the way it was passed! You know?

starbelgrade · 24-05-2011 01:54AM

zephyrz wrote: »

Voting in itself obviously isn't undemocratic! But ignoring the peoples decision because its not the answer you want to hear is undemocratic! Whether or not the lisbon treaty is good or not, I just have problems with the way it was passed! You know?

It was still passed by a majority vote. If people actually disagree with something but are stupid enough to be scaremongered into agreeing with it, it's their fault & not the systems.

twinQuins · 24-05-2011 01:55AM

Senna wrote: »

Holding new elections again and again until the "correct" side wins is undemocratic.

But aren't you free to keep returning whatever verdict you want? It's not anyone was coerced into voting a particular way.

zephyrz · 24-05-2011 01:59AM

twinQuins wrote: »

But aren't you free to keep returning whatever verdict you want? It's not anyone was coerced into voting a particular way.

That's true, but obviously the strong government backing the second time is what change peoples mind. I wonder if they would have had a second referendum if the first vote was 'yes'? I've been listening to Nigel Farage a lot recently and he has some good points about this if anyone is interested in researching it!

Senna · 24-05-2011 02:02AM

twinQuins wrote: »

But aren't you free to keep returning whatever verdict you want? It's not anyone was coerced into voting a particular way.

Not the way it works unfortunately, given enough attempts and only two possible results, its only a mater of time before the result changes.

twinQuins · 24-05-2011 02:06AM

Is it really, though? If people really felt strongly enough about it they'd continue to vote a particular way.
If anything this just shows how apathetic the electorate is.

Short of threatening people with violence or other sanctions I fail to see how, exactly, they're going to overturn their previous decision if not because they want to.

K-9 · 24-05-2011 02:12AM

zephyrz wrote: »

Is it true the french and Dutch said no to the European constitution, and the EU just renamed it the lisbon treaty, so only Ireland would have to hold a referendum to accept it?

Not the same treaty, it had to comply to constitutional requirements.

Farange is a good speaker if you are that way inclined. Many would say hisraising his face in Lisbon 2 swung the vote!

Senna · 24-05-2011 02:20AM

twinQuins wrote: »

Is it really, though? If people really felt strongly enough about it they'd continue to vote a particular way.
If anything this just shows how apathetic the electorate is.

Short of threatening people with violence or other sanctions I fail to see how, exactly, they're going to overturn their previous decision if not because they want to.

Had vote 2 been NO, they would have found out what a majority of people objected to, then launched a campaign to apprise this point (may not have have changed the point, just tarted it up), then have another vote, if still no, they do the same thing again, what did a large number of people object to.....re-word it. and try again etc etc etc.
The YES vote would win no mater what, seen it was backed by all major parties.

Biggins · 24-05-2011 08:11AM

zephyrz wrote: »

...Please stay on topic. Cheers

Well seeing as you said please, I hoped for more Jellybabies.

Chips Lovell · 24-05-2011 08:41AM

We had two divorce referendums too. This was undemocratic. Divorce should still be illegal.

sensibleken · 24-05-2011 08:53AM

the consequesces were a more streamlined decision making process. Some decissions will now be taken by qualified majority voting at the european council, some such as defence and taxation policy will still require unanimity.

Decissions will have to comply with the principle of subsidiarity, meaning that if legislation can be best done at a member state level then it should be. There have also been more powers to the European Parliament.

The diffence Lisbon made was dramatic but not as exciting as the campaign and fallout would lead you to believe. There is no EU army, minimum wage drop, corporation tax rise, abortion because of the Lisbon treaty. Similarly there have been no extra jobs created.

But it is important to note that if you were missled one way or the other you have nobody to blame but yourself. This was not an election it was a referendum, meaning that you are the legislator, you are the politician. And if you want the power to vote on international treaties between 27 countries then you have a duty to inform yourself very very well on that treaty

Pompey Magnus · 24-05-2011 09:18AM

feelingstressed wrote: »

Minimum wage could have been €1.20 or so if we rejected it :eek:

The posters said so and they would not lie

Actually it was the Anti Lisbon group, Cóir, which threatened that minimum wage would drop to €1.84 p/h if the treaty was ratified.

They were rightly accused of dishonesty by the Pro Lisbon side, an accusation which has turned out to be well placed as now, under the FAS WP Programme, companies can recruit qualified job seekers for €0.00 p/h, Cóir misled the Irish electorate with their far too generous €1.84.

sensibleken · 24-05-2011 09:20AM

Pompey Magnus wrote: »

Actually it was the Anti Lisbon group, Cóir, which threatened that minimum wage would drop to €1.84 p/h if the treaty was ratified.

They were rightly accused of dishonesty by the Pro Lisbon side, an accusation which has turned out to be well placed as now, under the FAS WP Programme companies can recruit qualified job seekers for €0.00 p/h, Cóir misled the Irish electorate with their far too generous €1.84.

no it isnt. Any drop in minimum wage or FAS training wage has nothing to do with Lisbon

deepsouthtalla · 24-05-2011 09:22AM

starbelgrade wrote: »

I think Man United will win the Champions League on Saturday.

you must be having a laugh????

Zebra3 · 24-05-2011 09:37AM

Senna wrote: »

The first time around people were voting NO because they didn't want their children to be drafted into the army, they didn't want the minimum wage cut to nothing and they thought abortions would be mandatory.

I've no problem with the NO vote, as long as its for the right reasons.

And the last time round people voted for Lisbon because of scare tactics so let's have another vote then.

Consequences of the Lisbon Treaty

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