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Difficult questions to answer
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No one obviously includes anything whether he is holly spirit or whatever............... Yet,,,,,,,, if the Holy Spirit doesn’t know everything how can he be God?
Op, you'll notice I'm replying to your post in one large, coherent block of text... when replying to mine please don't reply line by line, trying to pick holes in everything I write. I know you're out to disprove Christianity, but there's nothing intelligent about taking people's words and sentiments out of context. I'm sure I could pick plenty of single, out of context and therefore nonsensical lines of the Quran at you and ask you to defend them but I'm better than that.
Op, first of all, forget about the video. It contains inaccuracies. My post probably contains a few but here is my understanding...
The Son
That's Jesus. There are other quotes in the bible the deal with Jesus's divinity.
Jesus taught the apostles, but he did not reveal everything at once, often speaking in ways which they could not interpret. He would speak to crowds in parables, then explain the lessons to the apostles. Other times he would speak to the apostles using vague language that would only become clear after the events he was referring to occurred.
Similarly, the apostles and disciples wrote the gospels in a way that reveals the nature of God as they learned about Him, rather than trying to summarise the key points and conclusions.
If you take words and quotes out of context they will appear contradictory. Often it's because the chapter you are quoting was before the lesson on the full and true nature of God {Father, Son and Holy Spirit} was revealed.
Another thing is the bible cannot be taken literally. Jesus often speaks figuratively to emphasise points (I have a feeling he was doing so when he said "no one knows, not even the Son") and as discussed above He often obscured the meaning behind what he said. Also, the parables Jesus tells are not actual historic events.
The Father
In Judaism and Christianity, the view is that God has a physical body in Heaven, and that man was created in God's image. Muslims do not agree with this view and maybe that is why you have trouble visualising God in this way.
Back to your quote..
"But about that day or hour no one knows.. but only the Father"... This implies Jesus is talking about a person. He refers to the Father in this manner in order for the disciples to be able to strengthen their relationship with God.
It also helps them to understand the nature of the Father and the Son.
Jesus teaches us to view God as "Our Father", otherwise it would be too easy for people to get caught up trying to worship God without being able to conceptualise what they were trying to worship.
The Holy Spirit
The Holy Spirit is also referred to in Islam, although more often in Islam it refers to God communicating by using Angels. The Christian view of the holy Spirit is closer to the Jewish view, but is nonetheless similar to the Islamic view.
The Holy Spirit IS God, and the term Holy Spirit refers to the means by which divine communications and divine actions are carried out.
"But about that day or hour no one knows.. but only the Father"...
The Holy Spirit is not referenced as a person. In Christianity it is sometimes represented by fire or a dove. The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father/{Father and Son} (depending on your Christian beliefs). It is not a separate being, and it doesn't make sense to say the Father could know something without the Holy Spirit knowing also.
Back to the Muslim view, it is like saying Allah knows a fact, but the Holy Spirit does not. Or that there is a God of Allah in Heaven, and a God of the Holy Spirit, which is God outside Heaven. This would be incorrect. There is only one God.
To be honest, I'm surprised you are having such difficulty with understanding the Holy Spirit. I thought you'd have more difficulty with the divinity of Jesus
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I can see this getting very confused. What techni-fan has posted above does not express the position of historical Christianity (Orthodox, Catholic or Reformed).
According to mainstream Christian belief the Holy Spirit is the Third Person of the Trinity and as such is distinct from God the Father.
He (not it) is much more than a means by which God's communications and actions are carried out.
Techni-fan is of course entitled to his/her own beliefs, but for the sake of clarity I would point out that his/her beliefs as posted above sound a lot closer to what Jehovah's Witnesses believe than to what mainstream Christianity believes. That, of course, may be down due to an unfortunate choice of terms used rather than to any heterodox beliefs.
My apologies, that was my attempt to map the Islamic belief to the Christian belief. I believe the Holy Spirit is the God of the universe and what makes people Holy, as opposed to just a means for the Father to communicate with mankind.
This is the reason I avoided saying "he" and I meant no disrespect. I was trying to draw parallells with the Christian, Jewish and Islam view of the Holy Spirit, and thought the term "it" was more appropriate than "he/she/it"
However, you should also get a slap on the wrists. You said "so obviously the context demands that the "no-one" refers to human beings", even though the quote is "But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,[a] but only the Father"
By your slip of the tongue/keys, you just included the angels, the Son and the Father as "human beings". You are of course entitled to your own beliefs but for the sake of clarity i would point out that this is not the Christian belief 0 -
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Happy to answer. Jesus was speaking to human beings, so obviously the context demands that the "no-one" refers to human beings, not to the Holy Spirit.
tenchi-fan wrote: »However, you should also get a slap on the wrists. You said "so obviously the context demands that the "no-one" refers to human beings", even though the quote is "But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,[a] but only the Father"
By your slip of the tongue/keys, you just included the angels, the Son and the Father as "human beings".
Right!!!!Yes, we believe in one God who eternally exists in three Persons - the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.
You said.... all three Persons in the Trinity are omniscient.... It means their knoweldge is omniscient..... Yet you see in the verse....Yes, all three Persons in the Trinity are omniscient.
If the son were omniscient... He would sure have knowledge about that day or unknown hour....... but he denied.......“But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%2013:32&version=NIV
Please clear what do you mean by Image..... Have God (Father) eyes.... or Has God Nose like human?.........Now you're the one contradicting the Bible. Adam and Eve were created in God's image, but it was not until later that they received the knowledge of good and evil. So your theory here is obviously wrong.
Context from bible.... I have provided the context why i believe "God's image" doesn't apply to physical appearance rather the knowedlgeTo be made in God's image probably refers to the fact that man, unlike the animals, was created with a spirit.
Thanks:)......He is talking about the Spirit of God (I understand that English is not your first language, but generally when we capitilise the S in Spirit we make clear that this refers to God the Holy Spirit)....Jesus, as God the Son, is omniscient - thus having the same divine knowledge as God the Father and God the Holy Spirit.
See you aren't understating.... If Jesus, as God the Son, is omniscient.... What context you will make of this verse“But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%2013:32&version=NIV
If he was 100% God.... thenThis is one reason why the Incarnation means so much to Christians - and, of course, why we celebrate Christmas. God did not just pretend to be a man - He truly became man. Jesus was not 50% man and 50% God. He was 100% man and 100% God.So Jesus said, “When you have lifted upURL="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%208:28&version=NIV#fen-NIV-26410a"]a[/URL the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%208:28&version=NIV0 -
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I'm wondering is there any meaningful way that something that was never embodied in human form can be male or female?He (not it) is much more than a means by which God's communications and actions are carried out.
This makes total sense to me, but I would take it further in that I don't think that spirits have primary or secondary sexual characteristics either, or hormones, or brain structures.God is Spirit. Spirits don't have noses.
Also, how come males have a monopoly in the hierarchy of religion coincidentally revealed to an ancient patriarchical society? Surely the odds are that one of the three would be female, if we can meaningully ascribe genders to the Holy Spirit and God?
Sorry if this is going O/T. But it does seem to fall under the thread topic, 'difficult questions to answer'. 0 -
I must say that your explantion of the Holy Spirit not being a person ties in more with my memory of what we told/taught in school. I.e Jesus and God could be looke don as persons but not the Holy Spirit. I expect dufferent denomination have different versions - does anyone know what the orthodox church views on this are / The Orthodox view I understnad tends to be closer to what the early christians thought than the other denominations who are more prone to ' updating'.tenchi-fan wrote: »Op, you'll notice I'm replying to your post in one large, coherent block of text... when replying to mine please don't reply line by line, trying to pick holes in everything I write. I know you're out to disprove Christianity, but there's nothing intelligent about taking people's words and sentiments out of context. I'm sure I could pick plenty of single, out of context and therefore nonsensical lines of the Quran at you and ask you to defend them but I'm better than that.
Op, first of all, forget about the video. It contains inaccuracies. My post probably contains a few but here is my understanding...
The Son
That's Jesus. There are other quotes in the bible the deal with Jesus's divinity.
Jesus taught the apostles, but he did not reveal everything at once, often speaking in ways which they could not interpret. He would speak to crowds in parables, then explain the lessons to the apostles. Other times he would speak to the apostles using vague language that would only become clear after the events he was referring to occurred.
Similarly, the apostles and disciples wrote the gospels in a way that reveals the nature of God as they learned about Him, rather than trying to summarise the key points and conclusions.
If you take words and quotes out of context they will appear contradictory. Often it's because the chapter you are quoting was before the lesson on the full and true nature of God {Father, Son and Holy Spirit} was revealed.
Another thing is the bible cannot be taken literally. Jesus often speaks figuratively to emphasise points (I have a feeling he was doing so when he said "no one knows, not even the Son") and as discussed above He often obscured the meaning behind what he said. Also, the parables Jesus tells are not actual historic events.
The Father
In Judaism and Christianity, the view is that God has a physical body in Heaven, and that man was created in God's image. Muslims do not agree with this view and maybe that is why you have trouble visualising God in this way.
Back to your quote..
"But about that day or hour no one knows.. but only the Father"... This implies Jesus is talking about a person. He refers to the Father in this manner in order for the disciples to be able to strengthen their relationship with God.
It also helps them to understand the nature of the Father and the Son.
Jesus teaches us to view God as "Our Father", otherwise it would be too easy for people to get caught up trying to worship God without being able to conceptualise what they were trying to worship.
The Holy Spirit
The Holy Spirit is also referred to in Islam, although more often in Islam it refers to God communicating by using Angels. The Christian view of the holy Spirit is closer to the Jewish view, but is nonetheless similar to the Islamic view.
The Holy Spirit IS God, and the term Holy Spirit refers to the means by which divine communications and divine actions are carried out.
"But about that day or hour no one knows.. but only the Father"...
The Holy Spirit is not referenced as a person. In Christianity it is sometimes represented by fire or a dove. The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father/{Father and Son} (depending on your Christian beliefs). It is not a separate being, and it doesn't make sense to say the Father could know something without the Holy Spirit knowing also.
Back to the Muslim view, it is like saying Allah knows a fact, but the Holy Spirit does not. Or that there is a God of Allah in Heaven, and a God of the Holy Spirit, which is God outside Heaven. This would be incorrect. There is only one God.
To be honest, I'm surprised you are having such difficulty with understanding the Holy Spirit. I thought you'd have more difficulty with the divinity of Jesus0 -
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I could be way off, but I'll say what I think about why Jesus would have cried out those words just before he died. Jesus would have known about Psalm 22 ( I'll post it Asry so you can read through it..)
It's basically a prophesy of the coming of the Messiah in human form, tortured and reviled and put to death - but the end also conveys the huge 'victory'! Jesus would have cried out those words on the cross at that point in time to let us know exactly who he was, what he did, and he was still teaching even with his last breath, he said it for us so that we could understand - It's not that he thought he was 'alone', he was letting us know that we really aren't alone even in the darkest hour to have faith.
Imo he would have known exactly what was to become of him, it's what he came for, and the last words 'for he has done it' are so important in the psalm too...
I can't read through that psalm without choking up a little to be honest. Right so, I'm gonna get a coffee...lol....:)
You know, I'd never considered that. I know that he did frequently do things that were predicted in the Old Testament or directly quote it. This psalm makes me sad as well, but it helps when you're feeling really down. 0 -
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but that issue has nothing to do with the issue at hand, apart from the fact that there are sometimes confusions in minor details due to translation variables (again, I point to the variables in word means regarding homosexual sex but I'm riding my own personal hobbyhorse there). I would like to stress that apart from these minor issues (apart from the LGBT one of course:rolleyes:), the life and acts of Jesus are perfectly bang-on clear and always have been. [note I'm vaguely joshing here, don't be taking me up wrong] 0
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Before you pass judgement on the quality of Roman Catholic religous education standards, perhaps you might be able to give some adivce on which of the 30,000 plus protestant denominations an unhappy catholic seeking to leave the RC church might choose or how he would even go about choosing one.An excellent example of why schools should be secular rather than attempting (very poorly) to conduct religious indoctrination.
The Roman Catholic view (presuming your school was Catholic) is that the Holy Spirit is a Person. Any view that deviates from this would be considered heretical by the RC Church. For example I have frequently seen commentators in the english media pose the question of whther the Church of England is even a religion anymore, so diverse is the range of beliefs to be found there ? Indeed if I am right, did not a group of C of E clergy transfer over to the RC church lately ? 0 -
Before you pass judgement on the quality of Roman Catholic religous education standards, perhaps you might be able to give some adivce on which of the 30,000 plus protestant denominations an unhappy catholic seeking to leave the RC church might choose or how he would even go about choosing one. For example I have frequently seen commentators in the english media pose the question of whther the Church of England is even a religion anymore, so diverse is the range of beliefs to be found there ? Indeed if I am right, did not a group of C of E clergy transfer over to the RC church lately ?
I didn't pass judgement on RC educational standards. I passed judgement on Irish educational standards where tax-payers money is used to indoctrinate children into a (sometimes very poor) understanding of RC doctrine. But that is another topic.
As for joining denominations. Join which ever one you feel like, it's no skin off my nose at all. I don't consider myself Protestant anyway.
Christianity is about having a relationship with God. You can have that relationship in many different churches. Any church should be happy to explain their beliefs to you, so find one you're happy with and where people will love you and encourage you to worship Christ.0 -
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