Support Complete Libertarianism in Ireland?

conscious wrote: »

I don't see exactly what's wrong with being able to independently make your own decisions without being limited in choice set by the government! Anyone who argues against this must be a child or mentally disabled person who needs government to nanny them!

You see it as other people forcing you to do things. I call it a society. Something we have agreed is for the good of us all, and not something purely selfish. Libertarians are selfish, nothing more and nothing less.

Buceph wrote: »

Libertarianism is a load of bollocks. Its supporters are usually people who refuse to acknowledge their successes came from the very system they oppose. The only difference between anarchists and libertarianists is that the anarchists don't seem to be as selfish. Libertarians idea of freedom is simplistic at best. The "freedom to die" phrase is quite apt when it comes to them.

Why don't you try contribute something constructive? This may be in After Hours but the thread has gone way past the usual silliness that happens on the forum.

mprgst78 wrote: »

Libertarianism is not the same as anarcho-capitalism. I, as a Libertarian, recognise the importance of government for defence, the law and police as well as a small number of other functions. I do not believe in private armies (although I respect your right to fund and keep one). I do not believe in different varieties of law. I believe in one consistent law applicable to everyone.

Why would anybody need a private army?

firstly sorry for the long post....

what people fail to sometimes grasp is it is impossible to segment social from economic IMHO, if you want to do that just go socialist and be happy but you will wind up with a carbon copy of the crisis we have now, social programmes and no one to pay for them. the reason libertarians appear vague IMHO is not to bypass a difficult question its just we dont tend to look on the world they way others do, that you need a big govt solving all the issues for you and screwing them badly i might add. there are many levels and as a rule its not up to me to dictate what you should or should not do . the only person who knows whats best for you and your family is you and your family and what we are saying is thats the fundamental basis of libertarianism. too many people have been programmed on the crack cocaine of government, that it can answer every ill, every cause, it just needs a little more money from you a little more time, its always tomorrow with government. we dont believe that.

just reading the last few pages and i will give a stab at answering some of them but be advised its just my opinion, yours may differ. I am not here to convince you of anything or to defend anything. if you choose not to believe this, grand, sleep well, and so will i.

the government and schools, they build schools
sorry, they dont. you do. they are taking money from you to do that. this idea that government do anything is an illusion. they take money from you and squander it. Why does it take 15 years to build a school? Why do you have to beg a minister to get involved? that is power and the abuse thereof and it happens in any centralised system. Thats why you have kids in portacabins for 20 years. Sorry if you believe our education system is working you need to open your eyes a bit, it is a disaster zone. For example, the latest 'idea' now is to tax private pensions and quoting from memory, 'give jobs painting schools'. now if that is not an example of a govt bereft of ideas i dont know what is. What should we do, here is a bizarre idea, how about the parents of the school paint it? and before you ask YES we did that at our sons school, in fact dozens of parents did. I dont need a govt to tell me when the freaking school need a coat of paint. Also for the record, the local shop gave FOR FREE the paint, someone else gave us a deal on fencing which we paid for, the list goes on. Now why is that better, here is why 1. you pay for your school, its not some faceless git in some office in Leinster House and you feel responsible and you have an interest. 2. its local, everyone sees the benefit and all purchases are local so the local economy grows. 3. you know best what you can afford and what is needed not some guy with an excel spreadsheet 200km away who also does voting trend analysis before they commit cash. You also see the govt now is centralising schools to get reduced cost on teachers. However the benefit for children in this is questionable at best but that doesnt matter because education in ireland is not about education its about control. the govt vs unions vs you and then the govt with unions vs you and yet again your kid is nothing more then fuel for the system, oh, and they do that while you pay for it. there is a better way. The government should be involved in education. they should be setting standards that schools have to meet but running schools, sorry no, we have years now of proof that they cannot do that ranging from rat infested schools to schools with no heating. How would liberty solve this? its simple, you would have schools competing for your child, you would pay just as you are now, except you would pay directly not via a third party. there is a real genetic reaction to paying...you immediately care. you care about what you child is thought, when and by whom and what you say counts because you are paying. if a school doesnt keep up a high standard what will you do, you will move your kid and your money somewhere else better. if your kid is a thug, the school can say thanks for your money but no thanks because all the other parents want quality. So the school has to ensure they are delivering. As for the poor wont get thought? what type of fracked up view of humanity do you have? of course they will but it will have an even better effect, if someone is living in a area with a poor school they will do their utmost to change for the benefit of their child. You wont have this screwed up system whereby if you live here you can goto x or y school. What type of fascist masturbatory dream is that we are in now? also the market will balance automatically, the more need you have the more schools you will get. you will also have schools very quick to adopt new methods and approaches to childrens education because if they dont the school down the road will and people will move their kids. Do they have to meet a standard, of course they do and that is something a govt would be good at to ensure a common benefit for all BUT they should be restricted in how much they can infringe. Its your child, you decide. So if a school in a village is 3 people in a room with a local teacher who meet the requirements on whats thought and the parents are happy, why do you care? Its none of your business. we have so many do gooders now dictating lighting and heating and not marking your childs results in red in case they get upset. Sorry if you want a fuked up school for your child like that, good for you, go get it bro i wish you well, i dont, so you go find your zen paradise and i will get my kid what i want. You will also get a far wider range of educational approaches and if you have kids you will know, they are not all the same, they may develop the same rate but thats where it ends. everyone is not the same with the same needs despite the best efforts of the DOE. You also get very flexible working environments as a side benefit. people who float in and out of the system as they choose and the market benefits them personally but i digress.

the banking crisis is caused by free markets
Sorry, no, in fact if it was a free market it would have been over with 2 years ago. We do not have a free market in Ireland in banking, we have crony capitalism. we have banks that never feared competition, because their best buds in govt ensured it. why do you think the regulator was a big banking guy. The reason the banks borrowed from german banks and the reason german banks lent is they all knew that if it went tits up, the schmucks, the irish tax payer would foot the bill (like we did in the 80's for aib before by the way)and lo and behold, quel suprise...here we are. thats why the banks had no fear, the ultimately knew that their collapse would spell doom for Ireland, so they borrowed and lent when it was obvious there was a bubble about to burst because they didnt have to care. dont misunderstand me, aib didnt go balls out to collaspe Ireland, but to deny they knew it was a bubble , remember when aib sold its HQ building at the peak of the bubble and told all the rest of us not to worry? of course they knew. that is the problem with govt supported companies it breeds contempt and sloppy business ethics because they dont have to care, they are a protected class.WHy do you think it took them so long to work out which mortgages were in trouble, is that the mark of a company on top of its business or one fat on govt largess? Of course the government cant blame itself so now its free markets that are too blame...because if it isnt the next target is them. we have exactly the same people or cardboard cutout of them saying what we need is more regulation by the very system and people that caused it in the first place and whats worse is we have an electorate baying for more regulation to protect them. as always government wins...you get more government, more laws meant to exclude the very people who could solve it and cement into place the very people who did cause it. Why do corporations agree to crony capitalism? its simple, the objective of companies and corporates is to earn as much money as possible. they want to destroy all opposition to maximise profits,( by the way thats human nature and if you support a sports team you know exactly what i mean, thats the same mentality). if that means sucking up to government thats what they will do, a great example of this is goldman sachs in the US. in one fell swoop they got all competition blitzed in the downturn and of course hit with more laws, to protect the public you understand. So they have no competition and anyone that does appear has to comply with million of rules thereby guaranteeing no competition (if you are not bored i will post a perfect example of this with coke and pepsi and the law on wheelchair access)...see how it works, the laws work in their favour. yeah of course some exec will go to jail and they will have to pay fines but do you think they care, no because the fines wont remotely match the costs of competing in a real market, its guaranteed year in year out..they win and the execs who get thrown to the wolves will be the dodgy ones they want to get rid of anyways. did you know the guy who insisted on TARP in the US and picked the winners and loosers was ex goldman sachs? thats why us liberty types want competition. competition breeds the best, it forces the very thing companies want to do, kill the competition to work to your benefit. they have to get better, faster, cheaper, more cost efficient always trying to oneup the other guy and in the meantime you as a consumer benefit. if a company winds up with no competition, some young smart person will see an opportunity and force their way into the market. thats why you dont need a crap load of laws, that is nothing more than government trying to level the market and pick winners, something that is plainly impossible. The market will fix itself automatically every time. As soon as its profitable someone will jump. so the reality to the banking crisis is not more laws but clearly defined enforced fewer laws. you let aib fail. some other bank will feed off the rotting remains buy up the parts they want and aib offers the germans 1cent on the euro. thats how real capitalism works, and how i know this is thats what a legally enforceable contract is about and again why liberty types take that very seriously. aib did a deal with german bank a, aib goes bust, ze germanz open the contract to see what they get, they get pissed off , goto court the judge reads the contract says tough tittie here 1 cent per euro and the ryanair flight is that way...in actual fact what happens in a marketplace like that is you get more business not less because everyone sees the laws enforced and knows the game. thats the risk of a lender and why they charge interest, its the risk associated with the money. Its why the actual solution to Irelands problem is actually quite simple. a flat tax, what you earn you keep. its yours now spend it how you see best suits your family. the objective of our government would be to provide a framework to allow you to prosper. so long as you abide by the laws you are free to go about your business. can you fail, yes you can, but you get up and start again. is there a social net, you have to decide as a country what level you want, for me, personally, i would not have any but thats just me. i have great faith in Ireland. why? ever wonder how most irish people who go abroad prosper? why is that? there must be something in Ireland restricting them and thats government. ever wonder why we are one of the biggest charity givers per head of population in the world? the reasons is Irish people are fundamentally fair, if they see people in trouble they help. you can be a cynical as you like, as again thats a national trait but look at the facts, the reality is we give and we give a lot. Now you will say, what about the guy on the street today? my answer the government is suppressing that by taxing you saying they help that person when they dont, you are already supporting that person in theory, its just the government hasnt helped. as always they are slow and cumbersome, you are fast and nimble. irish people in a liberty based system would help those who help themselves, that i know with every fibre of my body, if you dont believe that i am actually sad that you have such a poor opinion of yourself because it speaks volumes about you not irish people. WHat Ireland could do in a libertarian society is show you dont need a hand out, you need a hand up to help yourself. look at the number of posts here about someone on the dole doing this or that and how we should pass a law. that is the drug of big government getting in the way of you. you know fundamentally who to help and how to say no, the best thing i can do for this person is not help. people know who to help and will do so. You may choose different people to help than me, fine that is how it should be. But help you will because we are a moral people. will you get people who dont help, yes you will, just as you do today. thats the way of the world and i know one thing for a fact, no government will ever solve that no matter how many laws they pass or how many people they hire in the tax department. That is the illusion of big government, that is the drug that if only i got in charge it would be different, it wont, it never does that as it consumes all and corrupts all. what i am saying is limit its influence, limit its power and limit those who are drawn to it.. small government, limited intervention and limited time for politicians to avoid the creation of a political class and maximum liberty for YOU. of course thats just my opinion..

I read your admirably lengthy post, Fallschimjager, but i think you are making a mistake that a lot of people who espouse a libertarian doctrine often do; you are imagining what libertarian doctrine would look like and what benifits it would bring when applied to a framework that has come into being as a result of the very system that libertarians claim to repudiate.
Just as there is little point in those who advocate for our current system dismissing libertarian principles when viewing them through the prism of the system we currently live under, there is little point in libertarians looking to advocate for their world-view by trying to explain what improvements their principles would bring to a framework that their beliefs would seem to repudiate and that wouldn't infact exist in any 'state' that 'operated' under libertarian principles.