Israel murder 12 people throwing stones

Nodin · 19-05-2011 04:23PM

comeraghs wrote: »

might be of interest to some!

http://www.anfearrua.com/news.asp?url=http://news.google.com/news/url||sa=t|fd=R|usg=AFQjCNHG-UCqe7leiedq2UFzwtTiOuM4zA|url=http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2011/may/19/mahmoud-abbas-palestinian-territories

Not really - it seems ill-informed. Abbas has already privately dropped demands for the right of return, for instance.

wes · 19-05-2011 04:31PM

The Israeli wrote: »

""In November 1947, the general assembly made its recommendation and answered in the affirmative. Shortly thereafter, Zionist forces expelled Palestinian Arabs to ensure a decisive Jewish majority in the future state of Israel, and Arab armies intervened. War and further expulsions ensued."

bending of the history at its best.

It perfectly accurate actually. Illan Pappe's book "The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine" give more detail:

The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine

The simple fact of the matter is that Zionists had no right to the land in the first place, and even less right to drive out the people already living there. Its really sad that some people will still deny historical fact, to justify Zionist racism.

The Israeli · 19-05-2011 04:37PM

Why they didn't have the right?
Who says that Ahmadinidgad? you?

Name me the territories that were decided to be Israeli by the UN in 48 that didn't belong to them. Names..

Nodin · 19-05-2011 04:40PM

The Israeli wrote: »

Ok,........... Hamas may demand ..........

The usual crap about the current Bogeyman. Seriously, if thats all you can come up with, theres little hope for you.

The Israeli wrote: »

We will only give up on territories if all the Palestinians will announce on the end of the conflict and the end of all demands after all the details will be concluded.
There is something you should understand: The Israelis will be willing to go very far to achieve that peace. They will give many territories, including lands which are being build upon right now. If not, the palestinians will be given evenly worth lands.
Why aren't we not doing it right away? There is a big mistrust between us and the Palestinians. When Abas made a statement a few days ago, that Israel stole their land in 48, and ignores the fact that the Arab nations together with the Palestinians inside the current Israel attacked the new born Jewish state wishing to end its existance, how does it influence on our mutual trust?!..........

And it's back to blaming 1948 and the Palestinians writing in the NYT for Israeli building in 2011.....'Sweet Jesus Murray, did you see the piece in the paper''fuck me yes...we've no choice now but to authorise another 1,000 homes'.

Again, from the top. The state of Israel is building settlements on occupied territory. It is filling those settlements with settlers who they know will be quite difficult and expensive to remove. They've no intention of stopping building until they reach whatever limit they deem sustainable. I've no idea what that is, when it would or could be reached, but its fairly clear thats whats being done.

The Israeli wrote: »

We need a partner that wants to end the conflict, not a one that takes the peace process intermediately for achieving further goals in the future.

So 'what if they make demands' turns now into 'they will make demands'. Whats that based on?

The Israeli wrote: »

Building is not the main problem. At least not in my opinion.
If it depended on me, I would stop it, but I'm not the only citizen in the country, and I too think that there are greater obstacles than that because it is reversable, but lost security to the state is much less reversable.

Its not the main problem in your opinion because you aren't the one being built on. Stuck between two Arab settlements and an Arab only road to get to your fields (whatever hasn't been seized) would concentrate your mind on the issue.

"security"?......if it was about security they wouldn't be putting apartments and semi-detatched civillian housing in the midst of Palestinian territory.

The Israeli wrote: »

When I'm talking about Hamas I'm talking about Hamas in the West bank that might rise their head, and other terror organizations.

So you're throwing in future bogeymen to cover all contingencies.

wes · 19-05-2011 04:41PM

The Israeli wrote: »

Why they didn't have the right?

No one has the right to steal someone elses land. This goes for everyone. No one has the right to drive out people from there homes due to there race, which again something Israel did.

The Israeli wrote: »

Who says that Ahmadinidgad? you?

Its a fairly general concept, accepted by almost everyone, except various groups of ultra nationalist, racists and religous extremists. You do not take things from others, and in the case of Israel where they did exactly that, which you know make them the aggressor in the conflict, but we should let reality get in the way of colonialism I guess.

**EDIT**
BTW, the land theft has not stopped, as evidence by the continued expansion of settlements in the West Bank and East Jerusalem, which is of course aggression that Israeli refuses to stop.

Also, the ethnic cleansing is ongoing:
Israel admits it covertly canceled residency status of 140,000 Palestinians

Nothing has changed, at all, the same crap is still going on.
**END EDIT**

Nodin · 19-05-2011 04:42PM

The Israeli wrote: »

Why they didn't have the right?
Who says that Ahmadinidgad? you?

Name me the territories that were decided to be Israeli by the UN in 48 that didn't belong to them. Names..

Anything to get away from now, eh?

Manic Moran · 19-05-2011 04:51PM

Israel blocks all kind of stuff from going in, for example they blocked Pasta at one point

As the Italian Army discovered in WWII, pasta is a logistical nightmare and is best avoided.

The problem is that for the amount of food you get, there is a disproportionate use of water. No pasta = the water you have goes further.

NTM

The Israeli · 19-05-2011 04:55PM

Nodin-

You fail to understand the Arabic general set of mind.

Maybe you don't care if the terrorists will be in a spitting distance from the Israeli PERMANENT borders with Israel having very little to do because it will have to deal with a Palestinian STATE and not Authority.

Soicide bombers in buses, restorants, malls, bus stations.. Lonely terrorists with knifes and axes.
They all will be by the borders, with very little to do with them before they go on their missions. Right now Israel stops most of them before they manage to cary out their missions.
I see that this is peanuts for you, but this is life for us.
In those settelmets usually live people that have a much higher tolerance for absorbing terror attacks than the regular Israeli which is in anyway much more than you would agree to tolerate.

I wrote "may" and "will".. so what? Are we talking about myy English or about my prediction skills? Let's say that the average reader understand the meaning.

Maybe it's hard for you to believe but the Palestinians will be compinsated for every lost inch of the land if and when there will be an agreament. We are talking here about a few precents of the total land (just heard that on FOX knews from a government spokesman.

wes · 19-05-2011 04:55PM

Manic Moran wrote: »

As the Italian Army discovered in WWII, pasta is a logistical nightmare and is best avoided.

The problem is that for the amount of food you get, there is a disproportionate use of water. No pasta = the water you have goes further.

Yes, that may well be true, but Israel blocked it due to security reasons........

wes · 19-05-2011 04:57PM

The Israeli wrote: »

You fail to understand the Arabic general set of mind.

So Arabs are one big hive mind............ Sorry, but that statement is pretty damn racist.

The rest of your post is just the same hysteria that Israel always comes out with, to justify ethnic cleansing and land theft. Its very simple, give Palestinians some of there land back (1967 borders and a proper state, and not the Bantustan nonsense Israel pretends is a state) and there can be peace. Now, there will be fanatics on both sides who will never give up, but over time, they will be fewer and fewer in number.

The Israeli · 19-05-2011 05:05PM

wes wrote: »

So Arabs are one big hive mind............ Sorry, but that statement is pretty damn racist.

It is a generalization, but a true for the Arab politics and actions.
There is the European set of mind - let's play by the book,
and there is the Arabic - honor comes first, and life is second to land and honor. I have many examples.

Didn't mean to offend anyone, but there are no good ways to put it right.
The civilized Irish and other european nations just don't understand the general arab mind. That is true.

Nodin · 19-05-2011 05:06PM

The Israeli wrote: »

Nodin-

You fail to understand the Arabic general set of mind..

Ahh yes. They're a different species, apparently, that have to be treated accordingly.

You'd be amazed the number of peoples thats been fired at over the years. Some of them you might even be aquainted with yourself.

The Israeli wrote: »

Maybe you don't care if the terrorists will in a spitting distance from the Israeli PERMANENT borders with Israel having very little to do because it will have to deal with a Palestinian STATE and not Authority.

Soicide bombers in buses, restorants, malls, bus stations.. Lonely terrorists with knifs and axes.
They all will be by the borders, with very nothing to do with them before they go on their mission. Right now Israel stopps most of them before they manage to cary out their missions...

....which will all magically change when theres a Palestinian state, because the IDF will become either potters, flower arrangers, or choose to express their angst through performance art and the medium of dance.

Theres been virtually no violence from the West Bank for how many years now? And thats almost entirely due to cooperation by Fatah and its various associated groupings.

Did it every occur to you that perhaps the whole suicide bombing thing and the occupation/settlement business might be linked in some way?

The Israeli wrote: »

I see that this is peanuts for you, but this is life for us.
In those settelmets usually live people that have a much higher tolerance for absorbing terror attacks than the regular Israeli which is in anyway much more than you would agree to tolerate....

In those settlements live people on stolen land, further exacerbating a bad situation.

The Israeli wrote: »

I wrote "may" and "will".. so what? Are we talking about myy English or about my prediction skills? Let's say that the average reader understand the meaning.
.

I'm specifically deriding the multiple way you seem to try to put the blame on the other side for continued expansion and a failure to negotiate.

Nodin · 19-05-2011 05:06PM

The Israeli wrote: »

It is a generalization, but a true for the Arab politics and actions.
There is the European set of mind - let's play by the book,
and there is the Arabic - honor comes first, and life is second to land and honor. I have many examples.

Didn't mean to offend anyone, but there are no good way to put it right.
The civilized Irish and other european nations just don't understand the general arab mind. That is true.

Dear o dear o dear..........

The Israeli · 19-05-2011 05:10PM

Nodin wrote: »

Dear o dear o dear..........

ok, please rephrase that in a civilized manner...
Maybe you think that there aren't different cultures and we are all the same..

wes · 19-05-2011 05:11PM

The Israeli wrote: »

It is a generalization, but a true for the Arab politics and actions.

Sorry, no it isn't, what you said is horriblly racist, in much the same way, if someone were to claim that Israeli settlers represented all Jews for example.

The Israeli wrote: »

There is the European set of mind - let's play by the book,
and there is the Arabic - honor comes first, and life is second to land and honor. I have many examples.

You just digging a deeper and deeper hole here.

The Israeli wrote: »

Didn't mean to offend anyone, but there are no good ways to put it right.
The civilized Irish and other european nations just don't understand the general arab mind. That is true.

Oh dear, even deeper again.

Look, there is no such thing as a general Arab mind set, or a European mindset and so on. These things do not exist, there 18th century racist notions, and similar things were said to justify hatred against Jews in past for example. The fact that your repeating something very similar is just really really sad.

The Israeli · 19-05-2011 05:22PM

Look, there is no such thing as a general Arab mind set, or a European mindset and so on. These things do not exist, there 18th century racist notions, and similar things were said to justify hatred against Jews in past for example. The fact that your repeating something very similar is just really really sad.

I don't hate arabs and never hated. There are some arabs that I love as friends, as I would love others.

I was talking about cultural perceptions that are known. You can open a book and find it there. Family honor, for instance.
There are several incedents a year in Israel alone where brothers, fathers or family of arab women kill them because they suspect or know that they have been sexualy "miss behaved" and embarrassed the family.

This doesn't happen outside the arab circle.

That's a cultural difference. Be more real.

wes · 19-05-2011 05:27PM

The Israeli wrote: »

I don't hate arabs and never hated. There are some arabs that I love as friends, as I would love others.

What your saying however is racist. The entire concept of a Arab mindset is racist, and similar things have been said about other groups in the past.

The Israeli wrote: »

I was talking about cultural perceptions that are known. You can open a book and find it there. Family honor, for instance.

There are several incedents a year in Israel alone where brothers, fathers or family of arab women kill them because they suspect or know that they have been sexualy "miss behaved" and embarrassed the family.

This doesn't happen outside the arab circle.

Hardly, common to just Arabs. Similar things happen amongst Hindu and Sikh communities in India for example, quite a few so called "Honours killings" there as well. So again, your just digging a deeper hole.

The Israeli wrote: »

That's a cultural difference. Be more real.

No, you are desperately trying to cover up the racist nonsense you came up with earlier.

The Israeli · 19-05-2011 05:31PM

So you do agree that there are differences. That's all.

CrackisWhack · 19-05-2011 05:36PM

Another thing that has me highly suspicious of Israel's motives, is the recent Internet propaganda.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/jan/09/israel-foreign-ministry-media

Programs such as mega phone and the like. Theres something very under-handed about it.

wes · 19-05-2011 05:37PM

The Israeli wrote: »

So you do agree that there are differences. That's all.

Considering your earlier point, was completley different, I see no point in this line of taught. Yes, cultures are different, but then so are individual in those cultures different yet again.

However, you were trying to just cultural difference to some how paint the Palestinians as uniquely violent, while down playing Israel own constant aggression against Palestinians via constant settlement expansion.

You also, ignore the fact that in the West Bank, Palestinians and Israeli's have worked together to stop violence agianst Israel, and for there trouble the Palestinians got more and more settlements.

Its seem to me, that if the Palestinians are violent, they get more settlements, if there peaceful, they get more settlements.

The Israeli · 19-05-2011 06:03PM

wes wrote: »

Considering your earlier point, was completley different, I see no point in this line of taught. Yes, cultures are different, but then so are individual in those cultures different yet again.

However, you were trying to just cultural difference to some how paint the Palestinians as uniquely violent, while down playing Israel own constant aggression against Palestinians via constant settlement expansion.

You also, ignore the fact that in the West Bank, Palestinians and Israeli's have worked together to stop violence agianst Israel, and for there trouble the Palestinians got more and more settlements.

Its seem to me, that if the Palestinians are violent, they get more settlements, if there peaceful, they get more settlements.

I was trying to say that the arab nations do not act by your logic. If they had, Israel would have been within 48's borders till this day.

I do appreciate the fact Palestinians and Israeli's have worked together to reduce violence. I mentioned it in the other post 2 months ago, but you are right. I should have mentioned it more. It is one of the main points of light in this conflict.
There was time in the past when Israel almost stopped building in the territories during Itzhak Rabin's Government and Ehud Barak's and even Ehud Olmert's (not for all the time but for prolonged periods).
In many of those times the terror organizations saw it as a sign for weakness or they just objected any recognition of Israel and increased their attacks.
Israel has learned from the last 2 decades that unless the Palestinians go to a full and final agreements, then life goes on and so the settlements, unless both of the sides go for peace talks, and then Israel usually freezes the building, sometimes willingly and sometimes under the American pressure. Depends on the government.
The Palestinians in return to their succesful cooperation get more control on their territories, and minimum army intervention in territories A under the palestinian authority.
With this cooperation and if all the major Palestinian authorities and organizations will go for peace, the Palestinians will get all their territories based on 67 lines with mutual agreed swapes.

dabestman1 · 19-05-2011 06:12PM

The Israeli wrote: »

It is a generalization, but a true for the Arab politics and actions.
There is the European set of mind - let's play by the book,
and there is the Arabic - honor comes first, and life is second to land and honor. I have many examples.

Didn't mean to offend anyone, but there are no good ways to put it right.
The civilized Irish and other european nations just don't understand the general arab mind. That is true.

I hope and pray that you are inthe minority and that the majority of israelis have more sense otherwise there will be more murders of innocent palestinians.

The Israeli · 19-05-2011 06:25PM

dabestman1 wrote: »

I hope and pray that you are inthe minority and that the majority of israelis have more sense otherwise there will be more murders of innocent palestinians.

I really don't think that throughout my 60+ posts on boards I was preaching for killing, or that sort.
On the contrary. If you go back and read my messages, you will see.

Nodin · 19-05-2011 07:41PM

The Israeli wrote: »

ok, please rephrase that in a civilized manner...
Maybe you think that there aren't different cultures and we are all the same..

Of course theres different cultures, and yes, there are elements to Palestinian culture that are vastly different to the Western. However, that gives no licence to start stroking land off the neighbours.

HavingCrack · 19-05-2011 08:24PM

comeraghs wrote: »

might be of interest to some!

http://www.anfearrua.com/news.asp?url=http://news.google.com/news/url||sa=t|fd=R|usg=AFQjCNHG-UCqe7leiedq2UFzwtTiOuM4zA|url=http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2011/may/19/mahmoud-abbas-palestinian-territories

wes wrote: »

It perfectly accurate actually. Illan Pappe's book "The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine" give more detail:

The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine

The simple fact of the matter is that Zionists had no right to the land in the first place, and even less right to drive out the people already living there. Its really sad that some people will still deny historical fact, to justify Zionist racism.

I'm no Israeli apologist but this is a bit of a revisionist view of history. There's little doubt that the Irgun and Haganah were responsible for ethnic cleansing and murder in much of Palestine, perhaps most notably in Jaffa, Al-Dawayima, Lydda, Ramla and Deir Yassen in 1948.

However, I don't think the Jewish population originally set out specifically to expel the Palestinians en masse, it was a more a case that they got carried away in war. Furthermore, not all the Palestinians were expelled, some fled and expected to return later, mainly the middle classes. I'm nto attempting to defend the Israeli actions but am merely pointing out that it isn't as black and whtie as that article makes out.

Manic Moran · 19-05-2011 08:44PM

wes wrote: »

Yes, that may well be true, but Israel blocked it due to security reasons........

Because they have a blockade in place.

In order to be a legal blockade, one of the things they have to do is allow adequate water supplies in to sustain the civilian population. By prohibiting items which un-necessarily use water, that amount becomes easier to calculate (and smaller).

NTM

minkynuts · 19-05-2011 10:00PM

Let me tell you a story(true) I can remember hearing my mother crying many nights for her younger brother who'm she raised as if she was his mother. He was a member of the British army that raced across Germany to rescue the Jews
from Belsen . Going as fast as possible meant they had to take more risks than needed, but they Succeeded. In 1946 the same mane who had risked his life in Germany for the Jews was killed by the Jews in the King David Hotel Jerusalem. From that day my mother had a hatred that never left her, she always referred to Israel as ungrateful scum

Israel murder 12 people throwing stones

Comments