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Irish rugby star to become hero in flotilla.

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Comments

  • #32
    Buceph
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,059 ✭✭✭Buceph


    Monty Burnz wrote: »
    You, sir, are worse than Hitler.

    :confused:


  • #33
    Monty Burnz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,455 ✭✭✭✭Monty Burnz


    Buceph wrote: »
    :confused:
    /satire


  • #34
    NTMK
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,575 ✭✭✭NTMK


    mprgst78 wrote: »
    do you have any proof that what i'm saying is false? right back atcha. I think if you were asked to reference everything being said here, you would not have the same type of discussion.

    check it out online (can't remember where i saw it) but i'm not making it up.

    Israeli Targeting Civillans
    http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-updates/news/israeli-armys-use-white-phosphorus-gaza-clear-undeniable-20090119

    Shelling of Un buildings
    http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-updates/news/israeli-army-shells-un-compound-20090115

    Israeli Millatary Destoying infastructure and crushing ambulances for roadblocks
    http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-updates/news/israeli-army-shells-un-compound-20090115

    Bombing of UN schools
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/07/gaza-israel-obama

    Heres my proof ill ask again do you have any proof that palestine are destroying there own infrastructure are any of the other Claims you make


  • #35
    mprgst78
    Closed Accounts Posts: 84 ✭✭mprgst78


    Hookah wrote: »
    You mean Hamas winning the election in Gaza, the reason for Israel, the beacon of democracy, starting the blockade in the first place.

    It would appear they enjoy widespread support. If they are carrying out the actions you claim they are, they shouldn't be quite so popular at the next election.

    They are blockading to prevent weapons being brought into Gaza and then used against Israeli civilians.

    Having a vote is meaningless unless there is a free press, a law that respects the rights of individuals and an impartial police force to uphold that law. There is none of this in Gaza. The Palestinians are taught that Jews are the devil from day 1. They hate the Jews. They would continue to hate Israel even if Israel gave into every one of their demands.

    Palestine is not a rational actor in this situation. It's a failed state run by theocratic terrorists.


  • #36
    Monty Burnz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,455 ✭✭✭✭Monty Burnz


    mprgst78 wrote: »
    It's a failed state run by theocratic terrorists.
    Israel is not a theocratic state? A state founded on what religion you are. :rolleyes:


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  • #37
    Hookah
    Closed Accounts Posts: 850 ✭✭✭Hookah


    mprgst78 wrote: »
    They are blockading to prevent weapons being brought into Gaza and then used against Israeli civilians.
    Collective punishment?

    You would agree with the UK having imposed a blockade on our country for the duration of the Troubles?
    Having a vote is meaningless unless there is a free press, a law that respects the rights of individuals and an impartial police force to uphold that law. There is none of this in Gaza.
    I don't know enough to comment on this.
    The Palestinians are taught that Jews are the devil from day 1. They hate the Jews. They would continue to hate Israel even if Israel gave into every one of their demands.

    Palestine is not a rational actor in this situation. It's a failed state run by theocratic terrorists.

    Most of this could apply to Israel and Israelis.


  • #38
    mprgst78
    Closed Accounts Posts: 84 ✭✭mprgst78


    NTMK wrote: »
    Israeli Targeting Civillans
    http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-updates/news/israeli-armys-use-white-phosphorus-gaza-clear-undeniable-20090119

    Shelling of Un buildings
    http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-updates/news/israeli-army-shells-un-compound-20090115

    Israeli Millatary Destoying infastructure and crushing ambulances for roadblocks
    http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-updates/news/israeli-army-shells-un-compound-20090115

    Bombing of UN schools
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/07/gaza-israel-obama

    Heres my proof ill ask again do you have any proof that palestine are destroying there own infrastructure are any of the other Claims you make

    Two examples:

    Palestinians attacking their own infrastructure:
    http://markhumphrys.com/gaza.html#economy

    Hamas using schools and hospitals:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRQa5-gmqys&feature=player_embedded


  • #39
    mprgst78
    Closed Accounts Posts: 84 ✭✭mprgst78


    Hookah wrote: »
    Collective punishment?

    You would agree with the UK having imposed a blockade on our country for the duration of the Troubles?

    I don't know enough to comment on this.



    Most of this could apply to Israel and Israelis.

    My point is not that the Israelis are a bunch of angelic do-gooders. They are not.

    My point is: who should you give the benefit of the doubt to on the balance of things? a volatile terrorist entity or a democratic state that respects human rights?


  • #40
    Hookah
    Closed Accounts Posts: 850 ✭✭✭Hookah


    mprgst78 wrote: »
    Two examples:

    Palestinians attacking their own infrastructure:
    http://markhumphrys.com/gaza.html#economy
    Hamas using schools and hospitals:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRQa5-gmqys&feature=player_embedded

    Two well balanced sources there.

    The Israeli Defence Forces youtube channel? Really?


  • #41
    the_syco
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,316 ✭✭✭✭the_syco


    mprgst78 wrote: »
    That's one way of looking at it but I've never heard the same question being asked about the Palestinian policies.
    Because if you question any policy by Palestinian, you're labelled an Israeli sympathiser...
    mprgst78 wrote: »
    I see what you're saying. However, the Palestinian Authority won a landslide election so it could be argued that they enjoy widespread support.
    I tend to question an election won by someone with more guns than his opposition.

    =-=

    R.I.P. Trevor Hogan


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  • #42
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    The Brigadier wrote: »
    Hmm, regardless of whether the blockade is right or not I am not sure how it can be described as illegal.

    Could the OP illustrate how he has come to describe it as illegal?

    Collective punishment of civilians is a war crime.


  • #43
    NTMK
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,575 ✭✭✭NTMK


    mprgst78 wrote: »
    Two examples:

    Palestinians attacking their own infrastructure:
    http://markhumphrys.com/gaza.html#economy

    Hamas using schools and hospitals:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRQa5-gmqys&feature=player_embedded

    a blog which sources include other blogs and websites like jihadwatch.org is not proof

    Link to the IDF offical youtube channel is not a reliable source

    So do you have any independant reliable proof??


  • #44
    Hookah
    Closed Accounts Posts: 850 ✭✭✭Hookah


    mprgst78 wrote: »

    My point is: who should you give the benefit of the doubt to on the balance of things? a volatile terrorist entity or a democratic state that respects human rights?
    :pac:

    Dude, I'm outta here.

    Enjoy your day.


  • #45
    mprgst78
    Closed Accounts Posts: 84 ✭✭mprgst78


    NTMK wrote: »
    a blog which sources include other blogs and websites like jihadwatch.org is not proof

    Link to the IDF offical youtube channel is not a reliable source

    So do you have any independant reliable proof??

    I knew this is how you would respond. You automatically assume that the Israelis are engaging in propaganda. You refuse to even let them tell their side. You refuse to even consider that there is another side to the story apart from your lefty news sources (that have demonstrated considerable bias in the past). You quote from the UN, on which up until recently Libya chaired the Human Rights Council. You are the niave person.


  • #46
    mprgst78
    Closed Accounts Posts: 84 ✭✭mprgst78


    Hookah wrote: »
    :pac:

    Dude, I'm outta here.

    Enjoy your day.

    Me too. There's no point in engaging in constructive argument here, it's too difficult. I'm not well prepared enough but would it matter if I was? Prob not.


  • #47
    jonsnow
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 724 ✭✭✭jonsnow


    mprgst78 wrote: »
    Two examples:

    Palestinians attacking their own infrastructure:
    http://markhumphrys.com/gaza.html#economy

    Palestinians attacking their own synagogues???


  • #48
    squod
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,704 ✭✭✭squod


    http://www.independent.ie/national-news/former-rugby-star-to-join-gaza-aid-flotilla-2651404.html
    While playing for Leinster, he studied Arab-Israeli conflicts in UCD with his former coach -- Michael Cheika. "What has happened to the Palestinian people is unjust and we are hoping to provide humanitarian aid as part of a peaceful mission next month."

    "It is a completely humanitarian mission. I am not not trying to get involved in politics. It is about trying to reach out to people on a human level -- people who need our assistance," Trevor added.

    There's a positive story that should be shown around the world. A few people trying to reach out and offer something to those less fortunate. A simple act of good will that should be an example of Irish attitudes more-so than the reactions from the royal visit.


  • #49
    NTMK
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,575 ✭✭✭NTMK


    mprgst78 wrote: »
    I knew this is how you would respond. You automatically assume that the Israelis are engaging in propaganda. You refuse to even let them tell their side. You refuse to even consider that there is another side to the story apart from your lefty news sources (that have demonstrated considerable bias in the past). You quote from the UN, on which up until recently Libya chaired the Human Rights Council. You are the niave person.

    I would if there any independant reliable sources proving your case. my "lefty" sources were a independant charity and the gaurdian newspaper and the UN which of these have a need to use pro-palestinian propaganda your sources include a blog which uses anti-muslim websites and blogs and the idfs youtube channel which no one in their right mind would think is an independent source

    also i know the UN is corrupt and your right about libiya the human rights council considering they tend to protect israel no sanctions or anything for something the have publicly condemed doesnt exactly seem like a pro-palestinian organisation


    So any proof?


  • #50
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    mprgst78 wrote: »
    My point is: who should you give the benefit of the doubt to on the balance of things? a volatile terrorist entity or a democratic state that respects human rights?

    Ye, see the first bit isn't that inaccurate. Your second description is a bit misleading though. It needs a few caveats attached.


  • #51
    Phill Ewinn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,007 ✭✭✭Phill Ewinn


    Now that Fionnula Kenny has stopped fawning over Lizzie. He might have the energy left to put the question of Americas support for Israel to Obama when he visits. If he oputs a good word in the Irish on the flotilla might not be treated as harshly as before.


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  • #52
    BlaasForRafa
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,020 ✭✭✭BlaasForRafa


    Monty Burnz wrote: »
    Israel is not a theocratic state? A state founded on what religion you are. :rolleyes:

    " In the Name of the Most Holy Trinity, from Whom is all authority and to Whom, as our final end, all actions both of men and States must be referred,
    We, the people of Éire,
    Humbly acknowledging all our obligations to our Divine Lord, Jesus Christ, Who sustained our fathers through centuries of trial,
    Gratefully remembering their heroic and unremitting struggle to regain the rightful independence of our Nation,
    And seeking to promote the common good, with due observance of Prudence, Justice and Charity, so that the dignity and freedom of the individual may be assured, true social order attained, the unity of our country restored, and concord established with other nations,
    Do hereby adopt, enact, and give to ourselves this Constitution. "


  • #53
    Praetorian Saighdiuir
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,968 ✭✭✭✭Praetorian Saighdiuir


    How the hell can you describe him as a hero?

    Thread title is :confused:..................Is he going to take on the IDF with explosive rugby balls and assist the PLO?


  • #54
    Wheelie King
    Closed Accounts Posts: 238 ✭✭Wheelie King


    squod wrote: »
    http://www.independent.ie/national-news/former-rugby-star-to-join-gaza-aid-flotilla-2651404.html



    There's a positive story that should be shown around the world. A few people trying to reach out and offer something to those less fortunate. A simple act of good will that should be an example of Irish attitudes more-so than the reactions from the royal visit.
    +1. Delighted to hear about this. A great man indeed.


  • #55
    Monty Burnz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,455 ✭✭✭✭Monty Burnz


    BlaasForRafa wrote: »
    " In the Name of the Most Holy Trinity, from Whom is all authority and to Whom, as our final end, all actions both of men and States must be referred,
    We, the people of Éire,
    Humbly acknowledging all our obligations to our Divine Lord, Jesus Christ, Who sustained our fathers through centuries of trial,
    Gratefully remembering their heroic and unremitting struggle to regain the rightful independence of our Nation,
    And seeking to promote the common good, with due observance of Prudence, Justice and Charity, so that the dignity and freedom of the individual may be assured, true social order attained, the unity of our country restored, and concord established with other nations,
    Do hereby adopt, enact, and give to ourselves this Constitution. "
    Indeed. But these are just flowery words from Dev about his dream of an Ireland with maidens dancing at the crossroads. It has no impact in the real world.

    For example, is any Catholic allowed to immigrate to Ireland, regardless of where they come from? Did we forcibly move non-Catholics off their land? Was Ireland founded in somebody else's land as a place for Irish Catholics to live?

    Nope. Not the same.


  • #56
    The Brigadier
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,549 ✭✭✭The Brigadier


    Nobody has given anything to show how the blockade is illegal.

    Can we take it then that the blockade is in fact legal*

    *It can still be morally wrong, just not illegal.


  • #57
    Dudess
    Closed Accounts Posts: 37,214 ✭✭✭✭Dudess


    Totally got this story the wrong way around. Thought the rugby guy was backing the Israeli forces... :o
    mprgst78 wrote: »
    democratic state that respects human rights?
    Israel? Me box! Merely being western doesn't make it those things...


  • #58
    problemchimp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,025 ✭✭✭problemchimp


    mprgst78 wrote: »
    Here's a few that I can think of:
    Deliberate attacks on Israeli civilians.
    Use of children as human shields.
    Sabotage of their own infrastructure in order to blame Israel.
    Confiscation of food aid to allow their civilians to starve, again to make it look like Israel is the cause.
    Storing weapons in schools and hospitals
    Using schools and hospitals to launch rockets and mortars.
    Did you just make that up or did you read it in the Sun@


  • #59
    keano_afc
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,711 ✭✭✭keano_afc


    So I guess to make it easier this time they're going to dock in Egypt and bring in the supplies through the Egyptian-Gaza border yeah??


  • #60
    wes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,749 ✭✭✭✭wes


    The Brigadier wrote: »
    Nobody has given anything to show how the blockade is illegal.

    Can we take it then that the blockade is in fact legal*

    I don't remember anyone showing anything as to why the blockade is legal, but last time I checked collective punishment, which is what the blockade is, is illegal under international law:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Geneva_Convention#Collective_punishments


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  • #61
    wes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,749 ✭✭✭✭wes


    keano_afc wrote: »
    So I guess to make it easier this time they're going to dock in Egypt and bring in the supplies through the Egyptian-Gaza border yeah??

    Egypt can't open there border just yet, due to various agreements with Israel. They need to statisfy various criteria for opening the border, which includes having an EU mission searching stuff going into Gaza, and various other conditions. Once they are able to open the border, they will do so:

    Egypt to open Gaza border crossing


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