Irish rugby star to become hero in flotilla.

Phill Ewinn

Irish rugby player Trevor Hogan who has played100 games for leinster and munster is set to take part in next months attempt to end the illegal blockade of gaza by Israeli forces. What does AH think? A risky journey given last years murders and abductions. A hero to me though.

Hookah

It's worth a try, I suppose.

The Brigadier

Hmm, regardless of whether the blockade is right or not I am not sure how it can be described as illegal.

Could the OP illustrate how he has come to describe it as illegal?

neil_hosey

fair play to him. I hope it all goes well..

mprgst78

I hope he doesn't expect assistance from us when he gets himself into trouble over there. That flotilla crowd is a bunch of lefty ideologues mixed in with muslim extremists.

sensibleken

fair play to him

jimthemental

mprgst78 wrote: »

I hope he doesn't expect assistance from us when he gets himself into trouble over there. That flotilla crowd is a bunch of lefty ideologues mixed in with muslim extremists.

A bit far there. There's an element of that but you have to admit that there's a lot of kids growing up in hardship because of what Israel is at. But, Israel can't exactly open the doors either.

sensibleken

mprgst78 wrote: »

I hope he doesn't expect assistance from us when he gets himself into trouble over there. That flotilla crowd is a bunch of lefty ideologues mixed in with muslim extremists.

oh now you say lefty idealogues like its a bad thing

orourkeda

Rugby is stupid

The Brigadier

sensibleken wrote: »

oh now you say lefty idealogues like its a bad thing

Isn't it?

Mr Benevolent

Why will he be a hero? Because he's a rugby player and will be on a boat?

the_syco

orourkeda wrote: »

Rugby is stupid

I think he got hit on the head once too many times...

Dudess

"Hey everyone - look at me, I back Israel in order to show how non leftie I am (because it's not as if anyone on the right objects to how the Palestinians are treated)!"

Zzzzzzzz...

mprgst78

jimthemental wrote: »

A bit far there. There's an element of that but you have to admit that there's a lot of kids growing up in hardship because of what Israel is at. But, Israel can't exactly open the doors either.

agreed, i would put the onus not on a democratic country that respects the rights of its citizens but on a theocratic regime that has repeatedly demonstrated its intention to harm as many civilians as possible.

Buceph

The Brigadier wrote: »

Hmm, regardless of whether the blockade is right or not I am not sure how it can be described as illegal.

Could the OP illustrate how he has come to describe it as illegal?

I think at the basic level it comes down to whether or not Palestine is a state. To blockade the port and deny access to the Palestinian port, Israel needs to be at war with them, and that would require them recognising Palestine as a state. If they don't consider them a state, they have to give them equal recognition as citizens of Israel, which they don't do either.

mprgst78

Dudess wrote: »

"Hey everyone - look at me, I back Israel in order to show how non leftie I am (because it's not as if anyone on the right objects to how the Palestinians are treated)!"

Zzzzzzzz...

I admire your intelligent wittiness!

I never expressed my support for Israel. I simply believe the actions of both entities should be judged by the same standards.

Dudess

That wasn't directed at you - it was directed at the OP, his thanker (who weirdly thanked me - maybe it was a sarcasm think) and the rugby guy. And it was out of genuine jadedness at these "Israel is great - can't actually explain why, but they're great" proclamations...

If someone can actually give a good reason as to why they think Israel's policies are so brilliant, I'm all eyes.

Hookah

Dudess wrote: »

If someone can actually give a good reason as to why they think Israel's policies are so brilliant, I'm all eyes.

They are a beacon of democracy in the Middle-East etc.

mprgst78

Dudess wrote: »

That wasn't directed at you - it was directed at the OP, his thanker (who weirdly thanked me - maybe it was a sarcasm think) and the rugby guy. And it was out of genuine jadedness at these "Israel is great - can't actually explain why, but they're great" proclamations...

If someone can actually give a good reason as to why they think Israel's policies are so brilliant, I'm all eyes.

That's one way of looking at it but I've never heard the same question being asked about the Palestinian policies.

Hookah

mprgst78 wrote: »

That's one way of looking at it but I've never heard the same question being asked about the Palestinian policies.

Which are?

The Brigadier

Buceph wrote: »

I think at the basic level it comes down to whether or not Palestine is a state. To blockade the port and deny access to the Palestinian port, Israel needs to be at war with them, and that would require them recognising Palestine as a state. If they don't consider them a state, they have to give them equal recognition as citizens of Israel, which they don't do either.

I am actually against the blockade. I don't take sides on this. I think that both sides are guilty of horrific atrocities. Israel are in a very difficult situation. While I understand their actions I don't excuse them. By the same token the Palestinians are being persecuted but that doesn't for me excuse the blood on their hands.

Regardless of all that I still fail to see how the blockade is illegal. If someone can point out which law has been broken I would be very interested.

Wolfe Tone

I think it a great idea and the best of luck to him!

mprgst78

Hookah wrote: »

Which are?

Here's a few that I can think of:
Deliberate attacks on Israeli civilians.
Use of children as human shields.
Sabotage of their own infrastructure in order to blame Israel.
Confiscation of food aid to allow their civilians to starve, again to make it look like Israel is the cause.
Storing weapons in schools and hospitals
Using schools and hospitals to launch rockets and mortars.

TheHighRoad

Hookah wrote: »

They are a beacon of democracy in the Middle-East etc.

A democracy that doesn't give votes to certain people because of their religon. Really?

Hookah

mprgst78 wrote: »

Here's a few that I can think of:
Deliberate attacks on Israeli civilians.
Use of children as human shields.
Sabotage of their own infrastructure in order to blame Israel.
Confiscation of food aid to allow their civilians to starve, again to make it look like Israel is the cause.
Storing weapons in schools and hospitals
Using schools and hospitals to launch rockets and mortars.

Those things are deplorable, if they're all true.

Would they be the policies of all Palestinians, or all Gazans since we're talking about the Gazan blockade?

NTMK

mprgst78 wrote: »

Confiscation of food aid to allow their civilians to starve, again to make it look like Israel is the cause.

Yes thats why the israelis blocking aid getting through to stop the palestian goverment from taking it :rolleyes:

Question do you have any proof of this at all

mprgst78

Hookah wrote: »

Those things are deplorable, if they're all true.

Would they be the policies of all Palestinians, or all Gazans since we're talking about the Gazan blockade?

I see what you're saying. However, the Palestinian Authority won a landslide election so it could be argued that they enjoy widespread support.

mprgst78

NTMK wrote: »

Yes thats why the israelis blocking aid getting through to stop the palestian goverment from taking it :rolleyes:

Question do you have any proof of this at all

do you have any proof that what i'm saying is false? right back atcha. I think if you were asked to reference everything being said here, you would not have the same type of discussion.

check it out online (can't remember where i saw it) but i'm not making it up.

Dudess

mprgst78 wrote: »

That's one way of looking at it but I've never heard the same question being asked about the Palestinian policies.

Despite all the pro Israel warriors? I sure have.

Monty Burnz

Buceph wrote: »

I think at the basic level it comes down to whether or not Palestine is a state. To blockade the port and deny access to the Palestinian port, Israel needs to be at war with them, and that would require them recognising Palestine as a state. If they don't consider them a state, they have to give them equal recognition as citizens of Israel, which they don't do either.

You, sir, are worse than Hitler.

Hookah

mprgst78 wrote: »

I see what you're saying. However, the Palestinian Authority won a landslide election so it could be argued that they enjoy widespread support.

You mean Hamas winning the election in Gaza, the reason for Israel, the beacon of democracy, starting the blockade in the first place?

It would appear they enjoy widespread support.

Buceph

Monty Burnz wrote: »

You, sir, are worse than Hitler.

Monty Burnz

Buceph wrote: »

/satire

NTMK

mprgst78 wrote: »

do you have any proof that what i'm saying is false? right back atcha. I think if you were asked to reference everything being said here, you would not have the same type of discussion.

check it out online (can't remember where i saw it) but i'm not making it up.

Israeli Targeting Civillans
http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-updates/news/israeli-armys-use-white-phosphorus-gaza-clear-undeniable-20090119

Shelling of Un buildings
http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-updates/news/israeli-army-shells-un-compound-20090115

Israeli Millatary Destoying infastructure and crushing ambulances for roadblocks
http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-updates/news/israeli-army-shells-un-compound-20090115

Bombing of UN schools
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/07/gaza-israel-obama

Heres my proof ill ask again do you have any proof that palestine are destroying there own infrastructure are any of the other Claims you make

mprgst78

Hookah wrote: »

You mean Hamas winning the election in Gaza, the reason for Israel, the beacon of democracy, starting the blockade in the first place.

It would appear they enjoy widespread support. If they are carrying out the actions you claim they are, they shouldn't be quite so popular at the next election.

They are blockading to prevent weapons being brought into Gaza and then used against Israeli civilians.

Having a vote is meaningless unless there is a free press, a law that respects the rights of individuals and an impartial police force to uphold that law. There is none of this in Gaza. The Palestinians are taught that Jews are the devil from day 1. They hate the Jews. They would continue to hate Israel even if Israel gave into every one of their demands.

Palestine is not a rational actor in this situation. It's a failed state run by theocratic terrorists.

Monty Burnz

mprgst78 wrote: »

It's a failed state run by theocratic terrorists.

Israel is not a theocratic state? A state founded on what religion you are. :rolleyes:

Hookah

mprgst78 wrote: »

They are blockading to prevent weapons being brought into Gaza and then used against Israeli civilians.

Collective punishment?

You would agree with the UK having imposed a blockade on our country for the duration of the Troubles?

Having a vote is meaningless unless there is a free press, a law that respects the rights of individuals and an impartial police force to uphold that law. There is none of this in Gaza.

I don't know enough to comment on this.

The Palestinians are taught that Jews are the devil from day 1. They hate the Jews. They would continue to hate Israel even if Israel gave into every one of their demands.

Palestine is not a rational actor in this situation. It's a failed state run by theocratic terrorists.

Most of this could apply to Israel and Israelis.

mprgst78

NTMK wrote: »

Israeli Targeting Civillans
http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-updates/news/israeli-armys-use-white-phosphorus-gaza-clear-undeniable-20090119

Shelling of Un buildings
http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-updates/news/israeli-army-shells-un-compound-20090115

Israeli Millatary Destoying infastructure and crushing ambulances for roadblocks
http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-updates/news/israeli-army-shells-un-compound-20090115

Bombing of UN schools
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/07/gaza-israel-obama

Heres my proof ill ask again do you have any proof that palestine are destroying there own infrastructure are any of the other Claims you make

Two examples:

Palestinians attacking their own infrastructure:
http://markhumphrys.com/gaza.html#economy

Hamas using schools and hospitals:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRQa5-gmqys&feature=player_embedded

mprgst78

Hookah wrote: »

Collective punishment?

You would agree with the UK having imposed a blockade on our country for the duration of the Troubles?

I don't know enough to comment on this.



Most of this could apply to Israel and Israelis.

My point is not that the Israelis are a bunch of angelic do-gooders. They are not.

My point is: who should you give the benefit of the doubt to on the balance of things? a volatile terrorist entity or a democratic state that respects human rights?

Hookah

mprgst78 wrote: »

Two examples:

Palestinians attacking their own infrastructure:
http://markhumphrys.com/gaza.html#economy
Hamas using schools and hospitals:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRQa5-gmqys&feature=player_embedded

Two well balanced sources there.

The Israeli Defence Forces youtube channel? Really?

the_syco

mprgst78 wrote: »

That's one way of looking at it but I've never heard the same question being asked about the Palestinian policies.

Because if you question any policy by Palestinian, you're labelled an Israeli sympathiser...

mprgst78 wrote: »

I see what you're saying. However, the Palestinian Authority won a landslide election so it could be argued that they enjoy widespread support.

I tend to question an election won by someone with more guns than his opposition.

=-=

R.I.P. Trevor Hogan

hatrickpatrick

The Brigadier wrote: »

Hmm, regardless of whether the blockade is right or not I am not sure how it can be described as illegal.

Could the OP illustrate how he has come to describe it as illegal?

Collective punishment of civilians is a war crime.

NTMK

mprgst78 wrote: »

Two examples:

Palestinians attacking their own infrastructure:
http://markhumphrys.com/gaza.html#economy

Hamas using schools and hospitals:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRQa5-gmqys&feature=player_embedded

a blog which sources include other blogs and websites like jihadwatch.org is not proof

Link to the IDF offical youtube channel is not a reliable source

So do you have any independant reliable proof??

Hookah

mprgst78 wrote: »

My point is: who should you give the benefit of the doubt to on the balance of things? a volatile terrorist entity or a democratic state that respects human rights?

:pac:

Dude, I'm outta here.

Enjoy your day.

mprgst78

NTMK wrote: »

a blog which sources include other blogs and websites like jihadwatch.org is not proof

Link to the IDF offical youtube channel is not a reliable source

So do you have any independant reliable proof??

I knew this is how you would respond. You automatically assume that the Israelis are engaging in propaganda. You refuse to even let them tell their side. You refuse to even consider that there is another side to the story apart from your lefty news sources (that have demonstrated considerable bias in the past). You quote from the UN, on which up until recently Libya chaired the Human Rights Council. You are the niave person.

mprgst78

Hookah wrote: »

:pac:

Dude, I'm outta here.

Enjoy your day.

Me too. There's no point in engaging in constructive argument here, it's too difficult. I'm not well prepared enough but would it matter if I was? Prob not.

jonsnow

mprgst78 wrote: »

Two examples:

Palestinians attacking their own infrastructure:
http://markhumphrys.com/gaza.html#economy

Palestinians attacking their own synagogues???

squod

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/former-rugby-star-to-join-gaza-aid-flotilla-2651404.html

While playing for Leinster, he studied Arab-Israeli conflicts in UCD with his former coach -- Michael Cheika. "What has happened to the Palestinian people is unjust and we are hoping to provide humanitarian aid as part of a peaceful mission next month."

"It is a completely humanitarian mission. I am not not trying to get involved in politics. It is about trying to reach out to people on a human level -- people who need our assistance," Trevor added.

There's a positive story that should be shown around the world. A few people trying to reach out and offer something to those less fortunate. A simple act of good will that should be an example of Irish attitudes more-so than the reactions from the royal visit.

NTMK

mprgst78 wrote: »

I knew this is how you would respond. You automatically assume that the Israelis are engaging in propaganda. You refuse to even let them tell their side. You refuse to even consider that there is another side to the story apart from your lefty news sources (that have demonstrated considerable bias in the past). You quote from the UN, on which up until recently Libya chaired the Human Rights Council. You are the niave person.

I would if there any independant reliable sources proving your case. my "lefty" sources were a independant charity and the gaurdian newspaper and the UN which of these have a need to use pro-palestinian propaganda your sources include a blog which uses anti-muslim websites and blogs and the idfs youtube channel which no one in their right mind would think is an independent source

also i know the UN is corrupt and your right about libiya the human rights council considering they tend to protect israel no sanctions or anything for something the have publicly condemed doesnt exactly seem like a pro-palestinian organisation


So any proof?

Nodin

mprgst78 wrote: »

My point is: who should you give the benefit of the doubt to on the balance of things? a volatile terrorist entity or a democratic state that respects human rights?

Ye, see the first bit isn't that inaccurate. Your second description is a bit misleading though. It needs a few caveats attached.

Phill Ewinn

Now that Fionnula Kenny has stopped fawning over Lizzie. He might have the energy left to put the question of Americas support for Israel to Obama when he visits. If he oputs a good word in the Irish on the flotilla might not be treated as harshly as before.