Israel murder 12 people throwing stones

Nodin · 16-05-2011 07:45PM

Freddie59 wrote: »

Suicide bombings and to protect their people.

In order to secure their people.

You know what the settlements are?

Hookah · 16-05-2011 07:50PM

Freddie59 wrote: »

Suicide bombings and to protect their people.

In order to secure their people.

How about making peace in order to stop having to protect their people?

Freddie59 · 16-05-2011 07:52PM

Hookah wrote: »

How about making peace in order to stop having to protect their people?

How about the Palestinians try the same? Oh I forgot - they did already.......:rolleyes:

FlutterinBantam · 16-05-2011 07:52PM

Nodin wrote: »

Ahh yes, I forgot - you don't like explaining things. Which, considering you criticise people for "little or no understanding of the issues involved" is a bit hypocritical, don't you think? Funny, ironic and worthy of mockery yes, but definitely hypocritical.

There are any number of legitamate, logical reasons to criticise the state of Israel, and unless you can pinpoint somebody using some wayward criteria to do so, it really would improve the quality of the thread if you dropped your ill defined accusations of "agenda" and kept them to yourself.

As for wasting your time - what were you going to be doing with it?

A thread on your bowel movements?

Going into a thread and accussing everyone who holds position 'x' of being a "waster" and "unemployed"? Waiting a few posts in the same thread again before making an aside to some poster on the same side of the fence about how 'these people' have no clue etc? Surely somebody could write you a bot to do that kind of thing. I'd wager few would know or care for the difference.

It might also improve the quality of the thread if you kept the 'personals' out of it and and concentrated on the thread in question.

Now if you can forgive me, I have better things to do than argue with people who cannot address proper issues but revert to personal abuse.

I doubt if the readers of this thread appreciate the to and fro here which you are constantly trying to derail.

dlofnep · 16-05-2011 07:54PM

Freddie59 wrote: »

How about the Palestinians try the same? Oh I forgot - they did already.......:rolleyes:

The Palestinians don't provoke Israelis by occupying their territory, and placing blockades against them. Not even remotely comparable scenarios.

How about Israel stops illegally occupying territory that does not belong to it, and facilitate the process of a Palestinian state, instead of trying to block it at every attempt, so it can steal more Palestinian land.

dlofnep · 16-05-2011 07:55PM

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

It might also improve the quality of the thread if you kept the 'personals' out of it and and concentrated on the thread in question.

Now if you can forgive me, I have better things to do than argue with people who cannot address proper issues but revert to personal abuse.

I doubt if the readers of this thread appreciate the to and fro here which you are constantly trying to derail.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA, coming from the KING of PERSONALS?

POT KETTLE BLACK.

steddyeddy · 16-05-2011 07:56PM

Laika1986 wrote: »

That's shocking logic, what did you expect them to do?if you read interviews with the german soldiers who were there that day say it was either them or you, what would you do?

Thats the point im making the soldiers view is a very small part of the overall conflict and it comes back to wolfetones point regarding wheter the burden of responsibility was on them or the politicians.

The comparison I was making was that german soldiers and israeli soldiers were both occupying land they had no business being on . In these two cases it is the fault of the politicians. Palestinians ares still going to be treated inhumanly and hence they will keep attacking and the cycle will continue. Someone needs to intervene. The israeli are entitled to their own land but the palestinians claim the same right. Someone needs to mediate between the two if both sides would talk as equals.

karma_ · 16-05-2011 07:56PM

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

It might also improve the quality of the thread if you kept the 'personals' out of it and and concentrated on the thread in question.

Now if you can forgive me, I have better things to do than argue with people who cannot address proper issues but revert to personal abuse.

I doubt if the readers of this thread appreciate the to and fro here which you are constantly trying to derail.

Posted without the slightest hint of irony.

I'd love to know if you believed even half of the absolute tripe you defecate on here in the form of posts.

Nodin · 16-05-2011 07:58PM

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

............ I have better things to do than argue with people who cannot address proper issues but revert to personal abuse.
..............

You refused to talk about the issues, and indeed refuse to further elaborate on issues you yourself raised.

I've made no abusive comments.

CrackisWhack · 16-05-2011 07:59PM

Freddie59 wrote: »

How about the Palestinians try the same? Oh I forgot - they did already.......:rolleyes:

Well there isn't any chance of peace while the West Bank continues to get smaller and smaller, the onus is on Israel as a 1st world country to reform it's policies with regards to the Palestinians, it has great resources and support to make society fairer and more equal.

Give the Palestinians the chance at having a decent life, education, healthcare etc.

Then we may see a change in the right direction, although it would take many years. However I really can't see Israel budging on their current stance at the moment.

SamHarris · 16-05-2011 08:19PM

dlofnep wrote: »

The Palestinians don't provoke Israelis by occupying their territory, and placing blockades against them. Not even remotely comparable scenarios.

How about Israel stops illegally occupying territory that does not belong to it, and facilitate the process of a Palestinian state, instead of trying to block it at every attempt, so it can steal more Palestinian land.

Although I am no fan of Israel, the situation is much more complex that that from a security perspective - a geographically and miliarily competent state which would no doubt be incredibly antagonistic (with good reason or no) is not something any nation would be rushing to create on it's border, especially considering it's complete lack of strategic depth.

Neither side ever really does anything that endears me to them, and both often do or say things that I find reprehensible, but I did notice some of the flags being waved at the border (albiet in a small cluster of people) was the black and white Al Qaeda one. Not saying that is a reason to shoot someone in any sense, but the mentality of both sides is very clearly demonstrated here by the actions of one and who the others chose to associate themselves with.

Freddie59 · 16-05-2011 08:57PM

dlofnep wrote: »

The Palestinians don't provoke Israelis by occupying their territory, and placing blockades against them.

Of course they don't. They just use rockets instead.

dlofnep wrote: »

How about Israel stops illegally occupying territory that does not belong to it, and facilitate the process of a Palestinian state, instead of trying to block it at every attempt, so it can steal more Palestinian land.

Yeah, those poor Palestinians.:rolleyes:

lastlaugh · 16-05-2011 09:04PM

Freddie59 wrote: »

Yeah, those poor Palestinians.:rolleyes:

That comment says it all...

Nodin · 16-05-2011 09:04PM

Freddie59 wrote: »

Of course they don't. They just use rockets instead.

Yeah, those poor Palestinians.:rolleyes:

Rather than make sneering ill informed comments, you might actually try to address the issues.

dlofnep · 16-05-2011 09:09PM

Freddie59 wrote: »

Yeah, those poor Palestinians.:rolleyes:

Ladies and gentleman, the character of a Zionist. Says it all really..

Dudess · 16-05-2011 09:13PM

brimal wrote: »

This thread is full of 'armchair commentators' who love nothing more than to jump on bandwagons.

Explain how it's bandwagon-jumping. People who leap to the defence of Israel and don't really give a reason, but it's the thing you have to do to show how no-nonsense and anti-hippy you are, seem like the bandwagon-jumpers to me.

ISDW wrote: »

I totally support Israel's right to exist, I went and worked on a kibbutz there in the late 80s, had a fantastic time, met lovely people on the kibbutz and while travelling around the country, of all religions.

I do not understand however, how Israel can treat people the same way that the Jewish 'nation' have been treated throughout history. But then, I also don't understand how Irish people can be racist and anti-immigrant given our history. The way that Israel treats the Palestinians is wrong in my opinion, however, they do have a right to protect themselves, which I think is what they did this weekend. Syria has a bit of an agenda at the moment to deflect what is going on, what better way than to make the eyes of the world look at their Jewish neighbours.

The Western world needs to put pressure on Israel to treat the Palestinians with more respect and to allow them to live normal lives. However, the arab countries around Israel also need to do the same. The Palestinians are used as pawns by the whole region, and this is what needs to be changed. Yes Israel is in occupied territories, but most countries in that region are in some way. A lot of the middle eastern countries didn't exist in their present form until the empirical Western countries divided the area up and formed those countries.

I don't know the answer to this, but Israel does have a right to defend itself. Maybe in 20 or 30 years time, if the people of the countries in that region have been successful in their attempts at democracy, things will change and there will be peaceful coexistence.

I agree with a lot of what you say, but while Israel does have a right to defend itself, surely you'd agree it does so disproportionately? E.g. Christmas 2008?

Cassidy Obnoxious Tonsillitis wrote: »

Recently in another discussion people rejoiced at the slaughter of a family of Jewish settlers at the hands of two teenage Palestinian murderers and justified the murder's on the grounds that the children parents were ultimately responsible for their deaths as they decided to live on settled lands.

Yep, that was a ****ing sick thing to say. Mak, I know you have first-hand experience of being there and you acknowledge atrocities on both sides - and I am NOT anti Israeli people, and the situation IS complex, but there is nothing wrong with objecting to the way the Israeli state conducts itself. It's what any decent person would do, and people who have no problem with it are despicable. Hamas are just as bad. But some people on this thread only have a problem with the violence by one side. I'm sure there are those who back Hamas violence - and they are despicable - but they seem far fewer than the hateful people who have no problem with what Israel does.

Pauleta wrote: »

I fully agree with tactics of the Israeli's.

Of course you do - in order to show everyone how you don't agree with "the looney lefties" but not for much else...

Pauleta wrote: »

A pre-empted strike.

Pre-emptive dude - jeez, at least get the terminology correct.

keano_afc wrote: »

what do people believe would have been the appropriate response from the Israelis to having their borders breached?

Not... killing?

eamo12 wrote: »

God bless and give strength Israel.

Why do you have such passionate support for the Israeli state that you'd support its bully tactics? Seriously, tell me. Could it be that you... don't like muslims? Want to ensure you never agree with something "the liberals" agree with?

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Left wing propaganda

Why would it be left-wing propaganda? Do people on the right not disagree with Israel's tactics? I know you don't, merely for a superficial reason, but plenty of people on the right who put critical thought into things and don't follow a particular stance like sheep because it's the "right-wing thing to do" don't.

just chump out an anti-establishment post and let it float

How is it anti establishment? Seriously, you'd actually support mass murder by Israel because to not do so would be... "anti establishment" according to you. It's interesting how you like to tell the world you're really conservative... but I've no doubt you aren't really and you do plenty of stuff conservatives don't like at all, at all.

Doesn't fool people around here

I love how you presume to speak for so many. I'd imagine most people with a modicum of sense, no matter what side of the political spectrum they occupy, laugh their arses off at the drivel you write. Might you also consider giving up the "buddy", "pal" sh1te? It really does you no favours and belittles your already very poor debating skills.

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

I have no time for bleeding heats or armchair generals.

Hahahahahahahaha! From the king armchair general himself!

So people who disagree with Israel's violence are "bleeding hearts"? You're like a parody.

Freddie59 wrote: »

Ah Dudess. On another crusade I see.

As are you - islamophobe, fan of snide, spiteful harassment... but a good "christian".

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

It might also improve the quality of the thread if you kept the 'personals' out of it and and concentrated on the thread in question.

Now if you can forgive me, I have better things to do than argue with people who cannot address proper issues but revert to personal abuse.

Translation: I can't reply. And it's hilarious that you think you don't get personally abusive (well your version of it).

I doubt if the readers of this thread appreciate the to and fro here which you are constantly trying to derail.

I doubt the readers have time for your posts.

ISDW · 16-05-2011 09:16PM

Dudess wrote: »

I agree with a lot of what you say, but while Israel does have a right to defend itself, surely you'd agree it does so disproportionately? E.g. Christmas 2008?

I think my post was very clear.

Dudess · 16-05-2011 09:33PM

Freddie59 wrote: »

Yeah, those poor Palestinians.:rolleyes:

Including the children? The women (for whom you were so concerned recently)? The men who aren't members of Hamas?

And you're a christian? I've a strong suspicion Jesus Christ himself (a Palestinian) if he were around today, would be asking you to leave his club...

The Israeli · 16-05-2011 09:49PM

Hi.
I don't understand - crossing the only northern border Israel has and endangering their lifes and the lifes of Israeli citizens, can it be justified?
Like, Nudin (I'm not talking only to you, it's just that I know you) you think that crossing this border is right? You didn't say so, but it seems like it.
Let me remind you: Hezbollah, Al Qaeda from Iraq that is in Syria too and some others organizations can cross too. In that situation Israel has no control on who is crossing and what they real intentians are.
They can demonstrate at their side of the border, but they definitely can not cross! No matter if the territory is occupied or not. This is the only border between the northern frontier and the rest of the country. No country would allow that. Not even the beloved Eire.

I don't won't to go into politics because we already discussed that, but I have no choice so I will touch briefly:

The peace proccess is stack. You would all agree that talking to the Syrians right now is useless. Israel will agree to give up on Golan hights, but it waill demand a lasting peace. Right now, Syria can't supply that demand.
Ok, what about the Palestinians?
Israel wants a lasting peace with them too. It will be reached if:
1) Israel will return them some of the territories they will agree upon.
2) Israel will keep holding big cities like Ariel.
3) Hamas and the Fatah will both agree to the existance of Israel and on the end of the conflict.
4) Israel will revieve a limited amount of refugees.

This peace agreament should end all claims of all sides. Right now, how many of you even dare to dream that Hamas which rules Gaza and which will have an influence on the West bank after their new agreement will agree to any of the mentioned above?
Peace only with the west bank won't hold. Hamas will continue to fight against Israel and encourage terror in the west bank too. Now it's not relevant anyway, after the reunion.

I think too, that things are stack. The hope to reach peace in the near future doesn't exist, but what can we do, if not waiting.
Remember: The peace agreemant has to include both west bank and Gaza and right now, no one has an idea how it can be accomplished.

I'm not a fan of the current government in Israel, but I do have to mention a very sad but a REAL TRUTH:
When Israel shows power, and just a little willing to compromise, the borders are relatively quiet.
No one, not even Nodin, can argue with that. What does it say about our peace partners? That they understand force? Have only respect to the strongest boy in the neighbourhood?

maybe..
p.s I'm sure Israel will find a solution to the settlements. The real problem is: How do you replace hamas or drag it to adopt peace and will the relatively quiet atmosphare maintain after another serious peace talks cycle begin.

Actually I don't want to talk about politics any further than this bercause we already talked about it, and it's not the issue of the thread. Please, don't address questions to me in this subject. Just make statements against my statements if you'd like.

Nodin · 16-05-2011 10:05PM

The Israeli wrote: »

maybe..
p.s I'm sure Israel will find a solution to the settlements. The real problem is: How do you replace hamas or drag it to adopt peace and will the relatively quiet atmosphare maintain after another serious peace talks cycle begin.
.........

...and as I've said - long before Hamas arrived, there was another set of excuses. The fact is that there was a four year gap where Abbas could have been seen to have benefited from co-operation and Hamas suffered because of lack of it, and the only thing they received was more demands and more building on the ground.

We've seen the results in the West Bank, we've seen the back room private attitude that led to those results, so please, please, please stop trotting out this 'But Hamas....' nonsense. Theres no intention of withdrawal on the part of Israel until the maximum feasible amount of land has been built on and consolidated, because theres absolutely no meaningful penalty on them, in terms of sanctions or casualties, for doing so.

The Israeli · 16-05-2011 10:19PM

An agreemant with the west bank alone. An agreement that doesn't end the conflict is useless.

SamHarris · 16-05-2011 10:21PM

Dudess wrote: »

Including the children? The women (for whom you were so concerned recently)? The men who aren't members of Hamas?

And you're a christian? I've a strong suspicion Jesus Christ himself (a Palestinian) if he were around today, would be asking you to leave his club...

Em... Just saying Jesus was a Jew, Palestinians are Arabs, from the Arabian peninusla. They settled in that area after the Arab expansion during the 7th century. It displaced (amoungst other people) the Jewish population, that exodus continued as the crusaders and various Arab leaders vied for the region.

There seems to be alot of mis conceptions amoungst people that "The palestinians were always there" - this is not the case at all. Not that it really matters, once you have built a home in a place not having ancestral lines going back through antiquity proving your the right race to live there really means nothing ...

SamHarris · 16-05-2011 10:24PM

Nodin wrote: »

...and as I've said - long before Hamas arrived, there was another set of excuses. The fact is that there was a four year gap where Abbas could have been seen to have benefited from co-operation and Hamas suffered because of lack of it, and the only thing they received was more demands and more building on the ground.

We've seen the results in the West Bank, we've seen the back room private attitude that led to those results, so please, please, please stop trotting out this 'But Hamas....' nonsense. Theres no intention of withdrawal on the part of Israel until the maximum feasible amount of land has been built on and consolidated, because theres absolutely no meaningful penalty on them, in terms of sanctions or casualties, for doing so.

Although I agree with you nothing was gained from the 4 years of raprochment, I would argue that is a ridiculously small period of time for any real agreement to be made, or even the beginings of one. And whilst the idea of Hamas as a threat did not always exist and was in many ways a reaction to Israeli intransigence that does not mean its existence and its methods/ beliefs can be so easily dismissed.

Nodin · 16-05-2011 10:31PM

SamHarris wrote: »

Although I agree with you nothing was gained from the 4 years of raprochment, I would argue that is a ridiculously small period of time for any real agreement to be made, or even the beginings of one. And whilst the idea of Hamas as a threat did not always exist and was in many ways a reaction to Israeli intransigence that does not mean its existence and its methods/ beliefs can be so easily dismissed.

....I'd suggest looking over the attitude displayed by the Israeli side here.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/palestine-papers

And of course, one might ask, if there was an intention towards a peace deal by Israel - a genuine one - why would the building continue? At the end of the day, and brutal as it sounds, houses built and roads linked have far more long term impact than the occassional casualties on either side.

SamHarris · 16-05-2011 10:40PM

Nodin wrote: »

....I'd suggest looking over the attitude displayed by the Israeli side here.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/palestine-papers

And of course, one might ask, if there was an intention towards a peace deal by Israel - a genuine one - why would the building continue? At the end of the day, and brutal as it sounds, houses built and roads linked have far more long term impact than the occassional casualties on either side.

I didnt say the Israeli attitude was a good one, or in any way conduicive to peace, however that is often how negotians begin, and may continue in that vein for a decade or longer. I am merely pointing out that just because the Palestinians may be entirelly within their rights to be feel frustrated, betrayed and forgotten the attitude of their elected officials, the extremism so rife within the community and the real danger they do and will pose to others if in command of a militarised state cannot be ignored.

Wild_Dogger · 16-05-2011 10:48PM

The Israeli wrote: »

Hi.
I don't understand - crossing the only northern border Israel has and endangering their lifes and the lifes of Israeli citizens, can it be justified?
you think that crossing this border is right? You didn't say so, but it seems like it.

I thought Isreal were the first to break the international borders ?

Nodin · 16-05-2011 10:49PM

SamHarris wrote: »

Em... Just saying Jesus was a Jew, Palestinians are Arabs, from the Arabian peninusla. They settled in that area after the Arab expansion during the 7th century. It displaced (amoungst other people) the Jewish population, that exodus continued as the crusaders and various Arab leaders vied for the region. ...

emmmmm.....not really.....
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2000/05/000509003653.htm

SamHarris · 16-05-2011 11:14PM

Nodin wrote: »

emmmmm.....not really.....
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2000/05/000509003653.htm

Of course there is some genetic cross over, that does not mean Arabs were always "owning" their own countries in the levant. It is much like Egypt, where modern Egyptians do not share the same language, culture or religion as their ancient equivalents, that is not to say some of them did not inter marry.

The Palestinian people recognize themselves as Arabs, that people, culture and language moved into the region under the Rashidun Caliphate. Many tribes settled in the region following the conquest. Of course there will be genetic markers which indicate that they were not entirelly seperate for 5000 years. They didnt cross the Sahara or Atlantic, there was trade and cultural crossover for 1000's of years before the invasions...

If you read the article you linked, you will find the researchers found they are closely related, not identical/ the same ethnic group. Note that Syrians and the Lebanese are also Arab in origin. The Kurds, Assyrians and Persians were also displaced (to a greater or lesser extent) by the invasions. It is in many ways a mirror of what would later happen to the Native Americans and the Aboroiginals, though the Arab conquets were on a whole far less devastating to the original population.

Did you read that link at all or even reflect on what it actually means before posting it as some kind of rebuttle to my point?

Like I said that racial argument does not cut any mustard with me anyway, I dont agree that one group or another should live in poverty or not have rights because they are of a different genetic background. Just pointing out you are wrong.

arybvtcw0eolkf · 17-05-2011 10:03AM

Dudess wrote: »

Yep, that was a ****ing sick thing to say. Mak, I know you have first-hand experience of being there and you acknowledge atrocities on both sides - and I am NOT anti Israeli people, and the situation IS complex, but there is nothing wrong with objecting to the way the Israeli state conducts itself. It's what any decent person would do, and people who have no problem with it are despicable.

Hey sorry D, I wasn't ignoring you but I was on my phone for most of the day yesterday and its a pain to quote & edit posts.

I've always been honest and open and have never refrained from telling the truth, I've posted about the IDF & its indecriminate shelling of south Lebanon and its deliberate targetting of UN personnel in other threads.

I'd never make any justification for a wrong doing, and everything I posted in this thread would be applicable to any soldier guarding any border or post anywhere else in the world.

People read that as me supporting the IDF, well tough. I'm not going to lie or make up stuff like the hysterics out of some here.

It was the same in a recent thread re. Bobby Sands and memories of 1981 - I was then labelled a republican and other sh*t.

Like I said, I won't engage in hysterics - there are enough people doing that here, in fact start any thread on Israel and they'll come flocking.

If I attempt to break things down too simplistic I'm accused of being condesending and talking down to people.

So there ya go, stuck between a rock and a hard place.

Predator_ · 17-05-2011 10:07AM

The Jews terrorism knows no bounds.

User banned for this racist (Jews) remark.

Israel murder 12 people throwing stones

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