Israel murder 12 people throwing stones

enfant terrible · 15-05-2011 11:50PM

Solnskaya wrote: »

Israel is special, a friend of the USA

Could of stopped there because that's all that matters.

arybvtcw0eolkf · 15-05-2011 11:54PM

dlofnep wrote: »

You're surely not justifying using live rounds on kids throwing stones, right?

The question was addressed to Pride Fighter - is that you too, did you get your accounts mixed up?.

dlofnep · 15-05-2011 11:56PM

Cassidy Obnoxious Tonsillitis wrote: »

The question was addressed to Pride Fighter - is that you too, did you get your accounts mixed up?.

I saw that. I'm asking if you think Israel's response was appropriate or if it warrants condemnation.

CrackisWhack · 16-05-2011 12:07AM

Cassidy Obnoxious Tonsillitis wrote: »

I'm home gentlemen... Right down to business.

What was a peaceful protest?.. (since you quoted me).

I don't think you've ever seen what Israel's border fence looks like have you?.

As for peaceful protests at them, I've never seen one.

But thats just me, maybe you have?.

Here is footage, for anybody that doesnt know what a border fence looks like.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9oQbcfVPMQ

arybvtcw0eolkf · 16-05-2011 12:08AM

dlofnep wrote: »

I'm asking if you think Israel's response was appropriate or if it warrants condemnation.

Ah grand, then don't quote me from another post, its confusing.

As you know I can, and will only, speak from experience and my experience of protests at the Israeli/Lebanese border and a possible border incursion tells me that a significant level of force/violence would be needed to breech the border fence.

If a child was involved in that process,and was injured or killed then the responsibility lies with the childs guardians and not that of the IDF or any other soldier in uniform.

Are we still talking about the 15 year old kid from an earlier post?.. If so, if would be impossible for an infantry soldier, much less a tanker or arty man, to know or appreciate the age of the person attacking the fence.

In such circumstance's while I wouldn't condone the killing of anyone, I can understand how it might happen.

I had a child aim an RPG at my vehicle once, my weapon was in the gun rack - I nearly shat myself, the RPG was a toy!... Go figure.

CrackisWhack · 16-05-2011 12:14AM

In fairness Makikomi, I appreciate you have experience on duty in the region, but from all the footage i've seen, it looks like the protesters were an unarmed, unruly mob.

To have 12 people shot dead seems really over the top.

arybvtcw0eolkf · 16-05-2011 12:19AM

CrackisWhack wrote: »

In fairness Makikomi, I appreciate you have experience on duty in the region, but from all the footage i've seen, it looks like the protesters were an unarmed, unruly mob.

To have 12 people shot dead seems really over the top.

On the Lebanese side of the border its unlikely the mob was unruly or unarmed, I've never met anyone in South Lebanon, and most esp. the Palestinians who hadn't got immediate access to weapons.

In Syria (on the Golan), Syria is under martial law at the minute and no one moves freely (from my understanding of it) so I can only guess that the Syrian authorities are compliant in some way - but I've no experience of that region so I can only guess, in such circumstances the weight of blame (in the case of a child or non-com being injured or killed) must rest with the Syrian authorities.

dlofnep · 16-05-2011 12:30AM

Cassidy Obnoxious Tonsillitis wrote: »

Ah grand, then don't quote me from another post, its confusing.

As you know I can, and will only, speak from experience and my experience of protests at the Israeli/Lebanese border and a possible border incursion tells me that a significant level of force/violence would be needed to breech the border fence.

If a child was involved in that process,and was injured or killed then the responsibility lies with the childs guardians and not that of the IDF or any other soldier in uniform.

Are we still talking about the 15 year old kid from an earlier post?.. If so, if would be impossible for an infantry soldier, much less a tanker or arty man, to know or appreciate the age of the person attacking the fence.

In such circumstance's while I wouldn't condone the killing of anyone, I can understand how it might happen.

I had a child aim an RPG at my vehicle once, my weapon was in the gun rack - I nearly shat myself, the RPG was a toy!... Go figure.

It shares many similarities with Bloody Sunday, and yet you condemn one - but defend the other. I'm slightly confused. Live fire should never be used to disperse a bunch of children throwing stones.

There is no excuse, no justification, and no apathy for this attack on civilians.

martic · 16-05-2011 12:30AM

I have been to both Israel and Lebanon and seen good in the general public in both countries, that aside when it comes to the military struggle between the two they are both as ruthless as each other. There is a deep hatred handed down from generation to generation on both sides and it doesn't take much to ignite a major incident in the area. On a personal note having lost a very close friend at the hands of Israeli mortar fire I feel that they get off with far too much and are not held accountable enough by the west like a lot of other countries are.

KyussBishop · 16-05-2011 12:31AM

Ah been a while since I checked AH; I see the usual antagonists are still about in the Israel-related threads

Thinly related, but there was a good Louis Theroux documentary on Israel/Zionists recently, which also shows a small border protest:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oy4-iOQhDDM

arybvtcw0eolkf · 16-05-2011 12:35AM

martic wrote: »

On a personal note having lost a very close friend at the hands of Israeli mortar fire I feel that they get off with far too much and are not held accountable enough by the west like a lot of other countries are.

85th Bn?.

Dudess · 16-05-2011 12:40AM

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Well done, another spurious thread started to let the usual suspects have a pop at Israel.

Tiresome lads, very tiresome.

As are you. Do you ever feel a bit uncomfortable about the fact that you're ok with the IDF bombing children merely to pettily make it known you'll never share a view with "the liberals"? Usual suspects back Israel on these threads too.

cookies221 wrote: »

We're all Irish. Why do so many self-professed pinkos get upset about another nation's affairs? It doesn't concern you.

How many children were shot dead in Mexico City today? You don't care because you can't exploit their deaths to promote your agenda.

cookies221 wrote: »

You're just mad that I called you out on it.

cookies221 wrote: »

you don't care about the hundreds dying from state sponsored violence in Libya, Syria, Qatar etc because it doesn't fit with your lefty agenda.

Your mind-reading skills aren't too great. No agenda, just disagreement with what the Israeli state does. If there's an agenda being pushed here, methinkst it be by yourself. And why would only "lefties" object to the policies of the Israeli state? Obviously some "righties" who can't think for themselves don't, but plenty do...

I wish the Irish would mind their own business. They were happy to stay silent during the Holocaust. And also when their Irish brethren were being denied their human rights in Northern Ireland in the 1960s, leaving a vaccuum for terrorist groups like the IRA to form to come to their defence instead.

Who are these "the Irish" you speak of?

cookies221 wrote: »

I thought you pinkos were against all that?

Tip: you may think tired, unsubstantiated phrases like "pinko" and "left-wing agenda" look really intelligent, but they're actually cliched soundbites that you clearly don't really know the meaning of...

Freddie59 wrote: »

Go Israel! Fcuk the begrudgers.:D

A statement containing no thought whatsoever - even a word, "begrudgers", that's not relevant. Dude, get a dictionary. Interesting too how you get so "upset" about muslims in one context, but don't give a **** about them in another.

conscious · 16-05-2011 12:40AM

****ing zionists

dsmythy · 16-05-2011 12:44AM

Handy news story for the Syrian authorities to deflect from their own difficulties. Firing up anti-Israel and Nationalist sentiment might focus their people away from their lack of freedom onto other topics.

gigino · 16-05-2011 12:46AM

tayto lover wrote: »

How a nation that suffered so much at the hands of the Nazis can now treat another nation so terribly is nothing short of shocking

They have learned to stand up for themselves ...if the Israelis did not act like they do the million or so arabs who surround the little state of Israel - about the size of 5 Irish counties - would push them in to the sea. Do not forget Israel is a lot more democratic than most of the states which surround it.

martic · 16-05-2011 12:58AM

Cassidy Obnoxious Tonsillitis wrote: »

85th Bn?.

It was the 85th, anniversary just around the corner.

steddyeddy · 16-05-2011 01:09AM

gigino wrote: »

They have learned to stand up for themselves ...if the Israelis did not act like they do the million or so arabs who surround the little state of Israel - about the size of 5 Irish counties - would push them in to the sea. Do not forget Israel is a lot more democratic than most of the states which surround it.

Reductionisim is often used in situations like this. Arabs are not automatically the "bad guy". Israel the state by definition is going to annoy some people but they are hardly conducting themselves in a civilised manner. In essence they are not demanding respect by their actions. The palestinians are amongst the most educated members of the arab race and they have been treated like animals by israel.

I dont buy the soldiers mistake that they werent sure who was a kid and were the armed ect. In the past israel has fired shells on villages, once they killed an Irish soldier in the process. Their entire policy towards their neighbours has been shoot to kill in the micro and the macro. This incident today has been a microcosm of their actions in the past.

gigino · 16-05-2011 01:17AM

steddyeddy wrote: »

In the past israel has fired shells on villages

I am not saying Israel is always perfect or correct, but do remember that a lot of shells have fallen on Israel, and they do retaliate by firing back to where the shells came from.

arybvtcw0eolkf · 16-05-2011 04:47AM

martic wrote: »

It was the 85th, anniversary just around the corner.

I remember it well.

He was the last Irish soldier killed in action in Lebanon.

Killed up in 6:16 by the South Lebanese Army. A christian De Facto Force of the Israeli Defence Forces.

Poor lad, killed in the service of peace.

R.I.P.

CorkMan · 16-05-2011 05:20AM

See, the jews got in there after World War II, and they will never leave now.

Yet whenever they hear about the holocaust its : "WE WON'T FORGET"

Manic Moran · 16-05-2011 05:48AM

So someone comes up and says "I've got a great idea. Let's bum-rush the Israeli border." Surely anyone with any sense knows what the end result of that is going to be.

Lebanese soldiers had fired in the air to try to disperse the protesters, who were chanting: "By our soul, our blood, we sacrifice ourselves for you, Palestine."

Oh. Well. If that's their general attitude, maybe they did know what they were doing. Seems pretty stupid to me, though. I'm no great fan of dying for a cause.

Sorry Im not having that. Ramallah is NOT the Israeli border

Protests were at a number of locations. The lethal shooting was at the border at Erez on the Gaza border, not in Ramallah.

They have stones not AK47s, non-lethal force by one of the best trained and equipped armies in the world should be perfectly adequate to nullify any threat faced.

Sometimes it works.

Clashes at the Qalandiya checkpoint in Ramallah continued for hours, with dozens of Palestinians injured.

Palestinian protesters threw stones at Israeli security forces, who fired tear gas and rubber bullets.

Sometimes it doesn't. Tear gas and rubber bullets doesn't stop anyone, it just makes life very uncomfortable to encourage them to be somewhere else. If they're determined, though, one actually has to stop them, not just provide incentive. Israel is, as far as I know, the only country to issue non-lethal tank ammunition.
That said, there is a recent movement for mass incapacitation systems, such as machine-gun-fired rubber bullets or the acoustic/microwave devices, but for some reason they seem politically loaded.

Can anyone give me proper justification why Israel continues to illegally settle on what is considered occupied territory?

I doubt it. Occupation pending an agreement is one thing, the continuing of building of settlements is something else and in no way helpful. The only good news is that Israel has set a precedent of abandoning settlements in Gaza.

As an aside, the Egyptians fired across the border into Gaza with live ammunition against stone throwers, wounding 30 in Jan 2010. I did a brief search, and it doesn't even seem to have been mentioned at the time.

NTM

The Israeli · 16-05-2011 07:19AM

Ask yourself:

Around 140 people bridging a barbed wired fence. They call to free Palestine and urge into the nearby village of Megdel Shams. Some of them are armed with stones.
Now it's a matter of time: Behind them there are thousands that want to do the same. Among them there are terror groups that would like to use this opportunity and infiltrate into Israel.
How would you act instead of Israel? Like really.. talk to their hearts? ask them nicely to leave?
Accordingly to Israel by the Israeli fire 2-4 Syrians have been killed and dozens were wounded. The rest, accordingly to Israel were killed and wounded by the Syrians. Now, you may not believe to the Israeli numbers, but would you believe to the Syrian numbers? The same syrians who have killed hundreds of their own and tried to distort the truth about what is happening in their country?
Why did the syrian army didn't stop these demonstrators? What could Israel do otherwise? Israel was prepared for this day, but failed to unticipate the border bridging. A border which is 200 kilometers long.

You all should know that if Israel wouldn't have opened fire (the order was to fire to the legs) and didn't restrain itself (yes, it did) the outcome could be thousands of Syrians in Israel, Syrian terror groups including Hizbalah and Al Qaeda too maybe. Hundreds would have died and a serious shake to the stability in the region.

Before you blame, think.
If you have any military experience you would know that there was no other quick and effective way to stop the deterioration at the border beside opening fire, at that time, with the means that Israel had at that place. Aagain, soldiers were ordered to shoot to the legs, the orders are always to the legs. But soldiers are humans, and they may miss the legs of moving people. You wouldn't be any better at this.
Sounds horrible to some delicate ears, but it's the reality that some of you probably don't know and fail to understand.
You can suggest how to stop a moving inflamed crowd from crossing the border and after crossing how to get it back, and if you were too slow how to deal with the situation, because the infiltrated terrorists inside of Israel could reach a significant number within several hours.

Again, every death of a cevilian is tragedy, but in reallity, they knew the risk, THEY LED TO IT, and their tragic death saved many many deaths of others, Israeli deaths and Syrian deaths.

Freddie59 · 16-05-2011 08:56AM

dlofnep wrote: »

You're surely not justifying using live rounds on kids throwing stones, right?

So all these 'protesters' were 'kids' then?:rolleyes:

Freddie59 · 16-05-2011 08:58AM

Pride Fighter wrote: »

Incursion???

It was a peaceful protest.

Israel just likes murdering innocent civilians, its their national pastime.

Yeah - and those damn peace-loving 'neighbours' around them never do it of course.:rolleyes:

Freddie59 · 16-05-2011 09:02AM

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

Israeli using disproportionate force against Palestinian civilians yet again, sure that's their specialty. Oh what brave and mighty warriors the IDF are.:rolleyes:

"Civilians". Yeah. With the terrorists in the queue behind them - putting the kids out front as usual. No surprises there then.

FlutterinBantam · 16-05-2011 09:16AM

dlofnep wrote: »

I think we all know that the IDF have absolutely no considerations for human life. They are scum, and should be treated with the contempt that they deserve. The Israeli embassy should be fúcked out of Ireland until they can learn to act like mature, civilized humans instead of barbaric, religious zealots.

You would love that wouldn't you, then you and your fellow travellers would have something to spill your bile on.

News for you, pal, not going to happen, so save your bitterness and rage for the pages of some internet forum.

Most of us in this country, my friend ,are not as easily lead as you appear to be.

FlutterinBantam · 16-05-2011 09:33AM

Nodin wrote: »

Spurious......

spu·ri·ous adjective /ˈspyo͝orēəs/
Not being what it purports to be; false or fake
- separating authentic and spurious claims

(of a line of reasoning) Apparently but not actually valid
- this spurious reasoning results in nonsense

(of offspring) Illegitimate

http://www.google.ie/#hl=en&safe=off&biw=772&bih=529&q=spurious&tbs=dfn:1&tbo=u&sa=X&ei=bRHQTYeRLoeJhQeT6OGNDQ&ved=0CCYQkQ4&fp=679ed75beca66045

...which of the above applys to this threads OP, in your opinion, and why.

Where did I say the adjective applied to the OP.?

In my opinion the thread was started to allow the usuals to come in and have a pop and, as a result of it being posted here in AH, I would consider it not what it purports to be, a genuine concern for loss of life, otherwise why hasn't the OP posted on the killings in Pakistan, the refugees in Libya, the deaths in Egypt?

Bit like the fullback in American Football, clearing the way for the runners to come through;)

Politics forum for these threads surely?

lastlaugh · 16-05-2011 09:34AM

Ugh.

This has certainly taken a turn for the worse.

Jax Teller · 16-05-2011 09:35AM

At least they didn't call them names

Phill Ewinn · 16-05-2011 09:36AM

What a horrible thread. No wonder this country is fvcked up. Some of you here belong in the zoo, or marching to a drum with your hand in the air. Hope I never have to meet any of you.

Israel murder 12 people throwing stones

Comments