Gaelscoils

up for anything · 15-05-2011 08:54PM

Strange that kids (or their parents) who attend the gaelscoil here in KK aren't that keen to go on to the Pobail Scoil for their secondary education. Having a gaelscoil education doesn't put you that far ahead of those who don't once you get past Junior Cert.

Clover · 15-05-2011 08:54PM

I would have liked to but the local Gaelscoil would not take my son as he did not have another family member in the school and when pushed on that they then said we where not in the cachement area.

That was ten years ago and myself and his mother stopped taking our Irish leasons as a result and have not taken one since.

solerina · 15-05-2011 08:54PM

I love being able to speak Irish, I dont think its dead, I think we should be proud of our language and if Gaelscoileanna help to increase the amount of people who can speak it, I am all for them !!!!

deise go deo · 15-05-2011 08:57PM

Clover wrote: »

I would have liked to but the local Gaelscoil would not take my son as he did not have another family member in the school and when pushed on that they then said we where not in the cachement area.

That was ten years ago and myself and his mother stopped taking our Irish leasons as a result and have not taken one since.

Gaelscoils often have much more demand for places than they have places available, it sucks that you kid dident get in, but theres no point blaming the language for it.

Iwasfrozen · 15-05-2011 08:59PM

dlofnep wrote: »

No you're not. There is a difference between not wanting to send your kid to a Gaelscoil (which is a valid position), and being a routine anti-Irish language poster, popping their face into every Irish language thread to re-affirm to us how 'useless' the Irish language is, and what a 'waste of time it is'. You're like a broken record at this point, and it is absolutely the same usual suspects who do it.

People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. It's always the same group of people who will pop up in every Irish language thread and talk about how brilliant it is and how it's an essential part of our culture and that without it we would have no soul.

Corsendonk · 15-05-2011 09:16PM

Potential Keep Ireland for the Irish training camps

christmas2010 · 15-05-2011 09:21PM

From what I've seen Gaelscoil are popular in some areas because they tend to be attended by local Irish born children.
Children recently arrived in the country with poor english are unlikely to attend. A subtle form of racism perhaps.

Clover · 15-05-2011 09:21PM

deise go deo wrote: »

Gaelscoils often have much more demand for places than they have places available, it sucks that you kid dident get in, but theres no point blaming the language for it.

I blame the school , if there was a family member already in the school he would have been accepted. after that I lost all intrest in taking Irish lessons or putting Irish as a priority in my kid's education.

Pherekydes · 15-05-2011 09:22PM

orourkeda wrote: »

I have to commend your commitment to starting threads about a useless language

How is it useless? It's the language spoken by a fair minority in this country. Why don't you try this experiment: walk up to a group of Poles and tell them their language is useless (useless in this country, of course).

All learning is good. Mastering more than one language is said to be very good for the brain. Poll those fecklessy unemployed and find out how many languages they have. My prediction is one.

For Forks Sake · 15-05-2011 09:24PM

christmas2010 wrote: »

From what I've seen Gaelscoil are popular in some areas because they tend to be attended by local Irish born children.
Children recently arrived in the country with poor english are unlikely to attend. A subtle form of racism perhaps.

Even though the post quoted will probably be denied from a height, there is a certain amount of truth to it.

deise go deo · 15-05-2011 09:26PM

Clover wrote: »

I blame the school , if there was a family member already in the school he would have been accepted. after that I lost all intrest in taking Irish lessons or putting Irish as a priority in my kid's education.

It seems to me that rule is about not splitting families up into different schools, I think that fair. After that there are only so many places to go round.

Pherekydes · 15-05-2011 09:28PM

Corsendonk wrote: »

Potential Keep Ireland for the Irish training camps

Nonsense. There are no exclusion policies of this nature. As soon as the newer immigrants realise their kids pick up Irish more easily than English they'll be switching in droves. They already are.

Pherekydes · 15-05-2011 09:34PM

christmas2010 wrote: »

From what I've seen Gaelscoil are popular in some areas because they tend to be attended by local Irish born children.
Children recently arrived in the country with poor english are unlikely to attend. A subtle form of racism perhaps.

Racism? Such utter crap. You'll find that Gaelscoileanna are as inclusive as any other type of school if you just bothered to go check them out. And why would having poor English matter to a Gaelscoil anyway? They don't speak English there at all for the first two years.

ArtyM · 15-05-2011 09:35PM

As languages go Irish is one of the most poetic you are ever going to find. Translating a simple phrase into Irish is like adding a backing track to a boring speech - you dont just translate the words, you translate their emotion/intention/feeling.
It is a simple language by simple folk that is filled with emotion and genuine feeling.
What other language would call Whiskey - Uisce Beatha(water of life)
or this.....
Go n-éirí an bóthar leat
Go raibh an ghaoth go brách ag do chúl
Go lonraí an ghrian go te ar d'aghaidh
Go dtite an bháisteach go mín ar do pháirceanna
Agus go mbuailimid le chéile arís,
Go gcoinní Dia i mbos A láimhe thú.

May the road rise to meet you
May the wind be always at your back
May the sun shine warm upon your face,
The rains fall soft upon your fields
And until we meet again
May God hold you in the hollow of His hand.

I do understand the ill feeling toward it though, given that it is very much forced on us in school and has little use insofar as it is not likely to ever be of benefit in getting a job etc. Also, the people that promote it are often of the same ilk as the ones who stop you on the street to talk about Jebus.

Wibbs · 15-05-2011 09:39PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. It's always the same group of people who will pop up in every Irish language thread and talk about how brilliant it is and how it's an essential part of our culture and that without it we would have no soul.

Precisely. Indeed the subject seems to be the OP's only hobby horse or is that hobby one trick pony. At this stage I'm picturing black shawl, 10 kids with a fondness for religious statues and a picture of Jack Kennedy in the kitchen of some rural 1950's black and white backwater.

As for Gaelscoils I have no issue with them particularly. Well they can be quite narrow in the oul ethnicity. Not a lot of "darkies" saying a haon do a tri in them. A point noted by a few nice middle cloooss parents who admitted to me that was one of the reasons they put their kids down for them. That and the smaller classes and more interested teachers. The Irish language stuff was actually quite low down the list. I see them as the equivalent to private fee paying schools. There is an element of elitism to them. Nothing wrong with that in my book though.

Pherekydes wrote:

Nonsense. There are no exclusion policies of this nature.

Doesn't have to be overt policy. How many africans or asians attend as a percentage of the school population and in comparison to "standard" schools? Stand outside a Gaelscoil in an urban centre and then stand outside an average non gaelscoil and lets play spot the Pole or NIgerian. Then get back to me. Though in fairness P loitering outside primary schools tends to attract the rightful attention of the Guards wielding batons so maybe not.

As soon as the newer immigrants realise their kids pick up Irish more easily than English they'll be switching in droves. They already are.

Links? Not supposition. Actual figures. I know the OP likes making opinion statements as fact, but I'd have expected better of you.

The Irish language itself is a different thing. I don't think it's a dead language at all. We've still got a fair few thousand fluent folks happy to use it as a primary means of communication. And fair dues to them. Long may it continue. However I have quite the similar attitude to most Gaelgoirs as I do to most devout Christians. What they preach isn't so much the issue, but the preachers themselves usually are.

ArtyM wrote:

Also, the people that promote it are often of the same ilk as the ones who stop you on the street to talk about Jebus.

+1000 This in a big effin way.

admiralofthefleet · 15-05-2011 09:41PM

wasnt there a story recently about a young lad done for doing a girl up the brenda at a Gaelscoil camp?

Clover · 15-05-2011 09:41PM

deise go deo wrote: »

It seems to me that rule is about not splitting families up into different schools, I think that fair.

I don't , it seems that once you have a child in the school then every one of your kids will get a place , but when your trying to get your foot in the door your meet with " a family member has to be in the school for your child to go " .

Now I understand that places are limited and that there is a demand for places, but when your on the wrong end of a decision over the family member rule it's a bitter pill to swallow.

dlofnep · 15-05-2011 09:42PM

Wibbs wrote: »

As for Gaelscoils I have no issue with them particularly. Well they can be quite narrow in the oul ethnicity. Not a lot of "darkies" saying a haon do a tri in them.

You'd be surprised at the amount of foreign nationals taking up the Irish language, in particular from Africa. I chatted to a 14 year old lad from Kenya completely in Irish one night when I was going to Irish classes.

I don't think racism comes into it, and if it does - the parents are f*cktards.

deise go deo · 15-05-2011 09:45PM

Clover wrote: »

I don't , it seems that once you have a child in the school then every one of your kids will get a place , but when your trying to get your foot in the door your meet with " a family member has to be in the school for your child to go " .

Now I understand that places are limited and that there is a demand for places, but when your on the wrong end of a decision over the family member rule it's a bitter pill to swallow.

Of course it is, If it happened to me I'd be really pissed off too. But surely you see the reason for allowing family members stay together?

deise go deo · 15-05-2011 09:46PM

Wibbs wrote: »

Precisely. Indeed the subject seems to be the OP's only hobby horse or is that hobby one trick pony. At this stage I'm picturing black shawl, 10 kids with a fondness for religious statues and a picture of Jack Kennedy in the kitchen of some rural 1950's black and white backwater.

As for Gaelscoils I have no issue with them particularly. Well they can be quite narrow in the oul ethnicity. Not a lot of "darkies" saying a haon do a tri in them. A point noted by a few nice middle cloooss parents who admitted to me that was one of the reasons they put their kids down for them. That and the smaller classes and more interested teachers. The Irish language stuff was actually quite low down the list. I see them as the equivalent to private fee paying schools. There is an element of elitism to them. Nothing wrong with that in my book though.

Doesn't have to be overt policy. How many africans or asians attend as a percentage of the school population and in comparison to "standard" schools? Stand outside a Gaelscoil in an urban centre and then stand outside an average non gaelscoil and lets play spot the Pole or NIgerian. Then get back to me. Though in fairness P loitering outside primary schools tends to attract the rightful attention of the Guards wielding batons so maybe not.

Links? Not supposition. Actual figures. I know the OP likes making opinion statements as fact, but I'd have expected better of you.

The Irish language itself is a different thing. I don't think it's a dead language at all. We've still got a fair few thousand fluent folks happy to use it as a primary means of communication. And fair dues to them. Long may it continue. However I have quite the similar attitude to most Gaelgoirs as I do to most devout Christians. What they preach isn't so much the issue, but the preachers themselves usually are.

+1000 This in a big effin way.

nuf said;)

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 15-05-2011 09:47PM

ArtyM wrote: »

As languages go Irish is one of the most poetic you are ever going to find. Translating a simple phrase into Irish is like adding a backing track to a boring speech - you dont just translate the words, you translate their emotion/intention/feeling.
It is a simple language by simple folk that is filled with emotion and genuine feeling.
What other language would call Whiskey - Uisce Beatha(water of life)
or this.....
Go n-éirí an bóthar leat
Go raibh an ghaoth go brách ag do chúl
Go lonraí an ghrian go te ar d'aghaidh
Go dtite an bháisteach go mín ar do pháirceanna
Agus go mbuailimid le chéile arís,
Go gcoinní Dia i mbos A láimhe thú.

May the road rise to meet you
May the wind be always at your back
May the sun shine warm upon your face,
The rains fall soft upon your fields
And until we meet again
May God hold you in the hollow of His hand.

I do understand the ill feeling toward it though, given that it is very much forced on us in school and has little use insofar as it is not likely to ever be of benefit in getting a job etc. Also, the people that promote it are often of the same ilk as the ones who stop you on the street to talk about Jebus.

I refer the sound of Elvish, to be honest. Now there's a beautiful poetic langauge. Or Fench.

admiralofthefleet wrote: »

wasnt there a story recently about a young lad done for doing a girl up the brenda at a Gaelscoil camp?

No, that was band camp.

Pherekydes · 15-05-2011 09:47PM

Wibbs wrote: »

Doesn't have to be overt policy.

Links, not supposition? I'd have expected more from you.

Regarding the evidence, I see it with my own eyes. My kids started 17 years ago and not only was the student body entirely white Irish, but 90%+ of their parents were not from the Pale. Now the class pictures that we get have an increasing smattering of non White Irish.

As I mentioned earlier, why not discuss school admission policies with the schools before jumping to conclusions.

+1000 This in a big effin way.

:rolleyes:

byhookorbycrook · 15-05-2011 09:50PM

admiralofthefleet wrote: »

wasnt there a story recently about a young lad done for doing a girl up the brenda at a Gaelscoil camp?

Not sure what you mean and what it has to do with the discussion?Are you mixing Gaelscoileanna up with Irish summer colleges?Either way, not helpful and anyone can throw rubbish out without a source.

Captain_Generic · 15-05-2011 09:51PM

admiralofthefleet wrote: »

wasnt there a story recently about a young lad done for doing a girl up the brenda at a Gaelscoil camp?

Clover · 15-05-2011 09:55PM

deise go deo wrote: »

Of course it is, If it happened to me I'd be really pissed off too. But surely you see the reason for allowing family members stay together?

I don't totally disagree with you but when you do that your turning the school into one big Clique so to speak and you can't get in as it's a regulars only type situation.

Pherekydes · 15-05-2011 09:57PM

Clover wrote: »

I don't totally disagree with you but when you do that your turning the school into one big Clique so to speak and you can't get in as it's a regulars only type situation.

Almost all schools have a "siblings first" policy.

deise go deo · 15-05-2011 10:06PM

Clover wrote: »

I don't totally disagree with you but when you do that your turning the school into one big Clique so to speak and you can't get in as it's a regulars only type situation.

I know what your saying, but I would imagine the majority of new students each year don't have relatives in the school. There would have to be a lot of very big families to keep that going if there wasn't.
Unfortunately its just the luck of the draw as to who gets in each year really. Until the Government gives the support needed for these schools to expand thats the way its gonna be.

Here is an example of one case among hundreds:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLdnoWMDBwI

He said that given the funding, the school could double its student population. Think of all the families they have to turn away every year.

Wibbs · 15-05-2011 10:14PM

deise go deo wrote: »

nuf said;)

Nope. Not really. I know it's at the limits of your range of subject matter, but a better retort is in there somewhere after all this practice with the topic. Link me figures of non nationals attending Irish schools and then link me figures of non nationals in the general school population. Then we can all compare and contrast and see what comes out. And no, Pherekydes "I see it with my own eyes" isn't evidence. I could say I've seen with my own eyes the difference between two local schools in Dublin. One Gaelscoil, one national. And by the "evidence" of my eyes the former had the racial profile of a school on the Veldt in 1975.

Ikky Poo2 wrote:

I refer the sound of Elvish, to be honest. Now there's a beautiful poetic langauge. Or Fench.

Fench eh?

:D TBH I like Irish. I love it's history, it's place in the tongues of great scholars that were the making of Europe when the light so very nearly went out. If you went back to the first renaissance after the fall of Rome in Charlemagne's court you would have heard old Irish spoken by a large proportion of his advisers amongst themselves. I'd be surprised if he hadn't picked up a few phrases himself. Of the greatest scholars and philosophers and religious and just influential nutjobs of the early medieval period a scarily high proportion were Irish speakers.

Only this very evening I was watching Time Team where they discovered a very early church, possibly monastery in the western Isles of Scotland. One of the off shoots of Columba's religious mission to that part of the world. And once or twice they mentioned the Irish connection, but not nearly enough*. They were musing over the Gallic :rolleyes: name. The Scots scholars pronunciation was whack. And it's not "gallic" or even Gaelic as such. It's Irish. The reason they speak it and not pictish in the highlands and the islands is because of cultural and religious and imperial input by Irish people.

The problem I have with it is that the language has contracted in the intervening years. It had contracted to an uneducated, superstitious and twee rural population. Today it's getting better and the Irish schools are the way forward. Hopefully it'll get it away from the childlike and the chuckie and the cassock and the "celtnicity" and bring it back to where it should be. Indeed any inward looking Irish people out there should read some of the first Irish language stuff. One of the biggest things that hits you(after the complexity of the language) is that they're the very opposite of insular. They are not interested in being local and parochial. It's all about our place in the wider world at the time. They even try to slot the local into the classical world. This is the joke, we were so much less inward then and that's why we had such an impact. Annnnyhoooo

*to be fair to Tony robinson. I recall a time team way back where he did push the irish connection.

byhookorbycrook · 15-05-2011 10:17PM

Pherekydes wrote: »

Almost all schools have a "siblings first" policy.

Educate togethe schools don't.

15-05-2011 10:22PM

Gaelscoileanna are a great way of teaching kids Irish.

However, in any gaelscoil worth it's salt, every subject bar languages will be done in Irish. Some kids just don't have an aptitude for language. Now, being in a gaelscoil could certainly help someone acquire/enhance their ability to learn languages, but some people just naturally find it difficult.

I don't think it's fair that in a gaelscoil, those with an aptitude for language will have a huge advantage in every subject, and those with little aptitude for languages will have a huge disadvantage in every subject. Imagine a science genius with absolutely no natural affinity for Irish being in a class where science is taught completely through Irish. It's certainly unfair.

In short, while I think that gaelscoileanna are good for kids who want to go to them, it's essential that kids always have the option of going to an English-speaking school. I've no doubt that there's probably more than a few overzealous parents putting their kids through an already difficult education with the huge disadvantage of not understanding the course content.

Gaelscoils

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