How much do you think I should get paid?

littlehedgehog · 14-05-2011 12:08PM

'I work 39 hours a week as do most in the private sector so you work 11% hours less but receive 12.5% more holidays than the norm.'

Is 20 days average? I get 24 days a year, in the private sector.
I'm on 37.5 hours, not including lunches

Op, I think you should be on about 17k as it would appear a degree isn't required to get the job. Probably 19k if a degree is required to get it. However, the safety of your pension should be offset by a slightly lower wage, if the pensions are going to be the same in years to come

this is assuming the cost of living will drop in future, as I think these wages would probably be too low currently.

n97 mini · 14-05-2011 12:09PM

RichardAnd wrote: »

For an admin clerical position, 20-24 k a year max. That's fair.

That would be about right imo. But it would appear there are too many people in that type of position, so even 20 to 24k is a problem.

mari2222 · 14-05-2011 12:09PM

ps pension is :

1/80 multiplied by years worked (max 40) less Contributory Old Age Pension (if eligible for coap).

So a max of half of final salary, less the COAP (COAP is now €11000 approx)

Therefore with a final salary of €24000, and COAP of €11000, the value of the pension per year is €1000.

The cost of the pension contribution for this is 6.5% salary p.a. : for 40 years at €24000 this would be €62,400 contributed.

The pension levy deductions for 40 years would be approx the same/ in the order of €60,000.

Not all public servants qualify for COAP - if COAP is nil, then the pension could be worth more - up to the max €12000 per annum after 40 years on pay of €24000.

mari2222 · 14-05-2011 12:48PM

2305 euro per month is the 2008 rate for stenographer/typist in Germany in the public sector. Nothing more recent found on the net.

http://laborsta.ilo.org/STP/guest#list

deise blue · 14-05-2011 01:31PM

stimpson wrote: »

Yeah. It's ludicrous to think that a public servant would ever have to face statutory redundancy.

Couldn't agree more - thank God for Unions & the Croke Park Agreement.

sarumite · 14-05-2011 01:38PM

deise blue wrote: »

Couldn't agree more - thank God for Unions & the Croke Park Agreement.

I don't think god had anything to do with the CPA, I think you should be thanking the weak FF government of Cowan and co. for that one.

PeakOutput · 14-05-2011 01:44PM

The more I think about it the more I can't think of a reason why we are hiring people on permanent pensionable contracts for photocopying, printing and typing.

As I said dont begrudge them anything personally but the system is seriously broken

deise blue · 14-05-2011 01:46PM

sarumite wrote: »

I don't think god had anything to do with the CPA, I think you should be thanking the weak FF government of Cowan and co. for that one.

Still , it was a mutually agreed pact by all involved parties , most importantly the employers and the employees ( via their Unions).

A phoney war seems to currently in place with various politicians trotting out thinly veiled threats to pay if savings aren't made.

This of course is the usual cut & thrust of industrial negotiations but I believe that the current Government are wary of provoking industrial chaos & as such pay cuts will definitely not be on the table anytime soon.

pow wow · 14-05-2011 01:49PM

Reasonably close to minimum wage. For the most part COs require little experience/skill at point of entry and, certainly in larger departments, they carry out duties with little responsibility or autonomy. As it's essentially an entry level administrative role I don't think it should be much above the minimum wage.

sarumite · 14-05-2011 01:53PM

deise blue wrote: »

Still , it was a mutually agreed pact by all involved parties , most importantly the employers and the employees ( via their Unions).

A phoney war seems to currently in place with various politicians trotting out thinly veiled threats to pay if savings aren't made.

This of course is the usual cut & thrust of industrial negotiations but I believe that the current Government are wary of provoking industrial chaos & as such pay cuts will definitely not be on the table anytime soon.

I agree it was a mutual agreement....though at the time of the agreement the Irish tax payer lacked a competent government able represent the employers (i.e the tax payer).

Personally I hope we have a government with enough courage to take on the unions if the CPA fails to bring about the savings needed and that it is not a phoney war.

CrackisWhack · 14-05-2011 01:59PM

Tbh 20 - 24k a year is a fairly low wage, when you consider the costs of goods and services in this country.

I have a science degree with 2 + years experience in my field, and in my last job i was earning 27k a year, with no perks.

Imo there is a huge difference in certain professions, which needs to be tackled aswell.

For example, I recently needed a solicitor and had to pay this guy €500 for 1 hours work, thats a weeks salary for me.

irishh_bob · 14-05-2011 02:04PM

CrackisWhack wrote: »

Tbh 20 - 24k a year is a fairly low wage, when you consider the costs of goods and services in this country.

I have a science degree with 2 + years experience in my field, and in my last job i was earning 27k a year, with no perks.

Imo there is a huge difference in certain professions, which needs to be tackled aswell.

For example, I recently needed a solicitor and had to pay this guy €500 for 1 hours work, thats a weeks salary for me.

i recently saw a solicitor for 45 mins , cost was 50 euro , i saw two others in the past year and the cost for one hour was 100 euro , i dont know what your solicitor was employed to do but the cost of hiring solicitors has come down significantly , hopefully the medical fraternity will sonn follow suit although doctors tend to view rescessions as only being for little people

pow wow · 14-05-2011 02:04PM

CrackisWhack wrote: »

Tbh 20 - 24k a year is a fairly low wage, when you consider the costs of goods and services in this country.

I have a science degree with 2 + years experience in my field, and in my last job i was earning 27k a year, with no perks.

There are people with master's degrees and years of experience working as COs alongside people who didn't finish secondary school - the point about clerical jobs in the PS is that qualifications/experience don't matter. As such you might have a genius scanning P45s for 7 hours a day. The wage is low because the skill required is low. If people want to pitch themselves at that level so be it.

WalterMitty · 14-05-2011 02:12PM

mari2222 wrote: »

2305 euro per month is the 2008 rate for stenographer/typist in Germany in the public sector. Nothing more recent found on the net.

http://laborsta.ilo.org/STP/guest#list

Stenographer is not the same as a clerical officer. And anyway Germany is one of the worlds richest,strongest and most succesful economys and we arent and never really were.
Here's clerical officer jobs in uk.

http://www.jobisjob.co.uk/clerical-officer/jobs 13-17k sterling in uk public sector, £7 an hour in private sector. Here its around 20 euro per hour for clerical work in public sector or 30+k per year .
Teachers in likes of Greece earn less than 20k. Nurses in France around 30k versus 50k here.

donkey balls · 14-05-2011 02:24PM

OP take one of my many occupations/skillsets and let me know how much I should get paid,I,m a so called professional truck driver at the moment:eek: and if I was to start from scratch again car licence to artic etc I would be looking at an expense of about 3/4k roughly and another grand for Hazchem licence.
Most drivers these days are mini CO as the amount of paperwork/handheld pda that they use is unreal not to mention the deadlines we have to make to get to a customers place.
Then you have the added presure of the company calling you with collections while you try and navigate around towns with a 45ft trailer behind you,Watching about six mirrors at a time while also making sure you dont go over your driving time etc(tacho laws).
What if I told you that there are companies paying professional drivers the min wage and less and look at the responsibilties they have driving around in all sorts of weather,BTW I know what it is like to work in an office enviorment as I.m an ex transport manager.

mari2222 · 14-05-2011 02:24PM

ei.sdraob wrote: »

How much do your counterparts in Germany earn?
Until the wages are at same level the Germans will constantly keep pointing at public wages here when it comes to talking about bailouts or rate reductions.
Yes I know the cost of living is different, but tell that to the Germans etc who are now your paymasters.

I was responding to an earlier contribution which raised a valid point.

the other monthly rates I found for Germany public sector pay 2008 were:

Computer Programmer 3537 euro per month
Central government executive official 5810
Regional government executive official 5227
Local authority executive official 4641
Machine operator 2305
Office clerk 2622

sollar · 14-05-2011 02:49PM

mari2222 wrote: »

Office clerk 2622

So an office clerk gets 32000 in germany, A CO prob should get the same or there abouts.

What are you earning OP?

Nijmegen · 14-05-2011 03:28PM

I don't get why folks round here rarely refer to the (private sector) salary surveys that the recruitment companies produce each year. Companies use them as the guide for all recruitment salaries.

Here's one from Manpower for example.

Depending on what exactly you do and your level of experience, from Data Entry Operator (€19-24k) to Administrator 3-5 years experience (€27-30k vs €22-28k for 1-3 years) or accounts admin assistant (€24-26k), it can vary widely.

The highest paid admin role would be office manager, €35 - 50k DOE.

Of course your benefits play heavily into this. You only work a 35 hour week (to round) vs 37.5 - 40 hours for most full salary positions. Most admins would get no more than 20 days holidays per year (including things like Empire Day

) and the defined benefit pension is gold.

The issue in the PS is also long term earnings. Find me an admin in a company who knows what their salary would be if they stayed in the same 'grade' for the next ten years. I know admin execs who are content to stay there because they're in mid €30k's now in their late twenties, and will be in mid €50k's on increments (which are still given) a few years down the line.

So the best judge would obviously be hourly pay. Let's say you're a mid-tier admin, €27,000 by our salary survey. You work a 35 hour week - this alone puts you at €14.83 an hour vs €12.98 for any admin who I know (and some I employ, working 0900-1730 to make up the half hour for lunch, which is unpaid - that's how it's done in the rest of the world!)

When we start to calculate in holidays, defined benefit.... You see the picture.

mari2222 · 14-05-2011 03:32PM

WalterMitty wrote: »

Nurses in France around 30k versus 50k here.

Nurse pay in France varies from 1605-3601 euro per month , with full pension at age 55, or after 30 years work. I dont know if they get 13 months pay per year like most french workers do.

dan_d · 14-05-2011 06:06PM

From what I see searching for jobs, "admin" positions would be somewhat similar to yours, ie data entry, photocopying, reception work etc.

They range from about 18k to about 28k, depending on the organisation, but the very rough average seems to be 22-25k. Very rough.

To my mind, you should fall in there somewhere.

stimpson · 14-05-2011 06:34PM

splendid101 wrote: »

It's ludicrous to suggest that a civil servant should face statutory redundancy based on a few posts on an internet forum. You don't know enough about what department I'm in or other variables to suggest I should be made redundant.

You said that you were basically an average photocopier operative. As a country we are living beyond our means and we will eventually see a decrease in public sector numbers of about 40%. I would suggest that a reduction in low skilled admin jobs would have the least impact on services. I'm sure the country will be flat broke by then and there will be nothing in the pot for generous golden handshakes.

You also don't know enough about me to suggest I don't live in the real world.

Your post was offensive on that basis, not because you suggested I should lose my job.

For "the real world" you could substitute "the private sector"

With all due respect, in the most unboards-like language; f*ck you, stimpson, f*ck you. I apologise now for my use of unboards-like language. It is most unboards like language and I now withdraw it and apologise for it.

Charming. But I accept your apology.

later12 · 14-05-2011 07:00PM

The answer is difficult to give because of the nature of the civil and public service.

In a highly efficient model with low unemployment in the market, and starting from scratch, we would expect to pay you slightly above the going market rate. At a high rate of unemployment in the economy, however, we would still pay a little above the market rates, but would expect your wages to fall.

Therefore at this moment, using very rough figures and anecdotal evidence (highly unscientific!) I would expect you to be earning perhaps 3k above minimum wage. I would guess that our public service being as it is, you are earning significantly more than that, of course.

A rule of this rough estimate is also that you and your colleagues could be fired for non performance or low productivity.

skydish79 · 14-05-2011 07:36PM

3 k above the minimum wage lol

Why not pay them nothing and make sure they thank you for the privilege of serving you

sarumite · 14-05-2011 07:41PM

skydish79 wrote: »

3 k above the minimum wage lol

Why not pay them nothing and make sure they thank you for the privilege of serving you

I think its a bit far fetched to say 3k above minimum wage is slavery.

later12 · 14-05-2011 07:47PM

skydish79 wrote: »

3 k above the minimum wage lol

Why not pay them nothing and make sure they thank you for the privilege of serving you

A clerical officer is usually a relatively new entrant responsible for routine tasks like photocopying and dealing with very straightforward duties. The wage I'm suggesting is about 20k, I think that either corresponds with, or may even be slightly above what would be on offer elsewhere for a similar level of skill. I am basing my guess on the efficient wage hypothesis for attracting talented workers while also taking into account the stability of the work and the salary security in a high-unemployment labour market. OK?

And yes, I would hope that all civil and public servants maintain a courteous attitude with the public, thanking them where appropriate, and indeed no less of which they deserve themselves.

skydish79 · 14-05-2011 08:29PM

I said they should thank you for the privilege for serving you, given that you pay their wage and as such you are there master and they your servant

dissed doc · 14-05-2011 08:30PM

splendid101 wrote: »

In any parts of Europe rents aren't as high, property purchase prices aren't as high, health care costs aren't as high, transport costs aren't as high, food costs aren't as high, recreation costs aren't as high, etc., etc., etc. I remember buying a frozen pizza for €0.25 in Berlin a few years ago, and a delicious, cooked, nine-inch pizza from a take away in Dusseldorf for €2. The discrepency has probably changed (in our favour) since then but you can hopefully see where I'm going with this - that's about 10% of Irish prices. I should actually go into an Aldi next time I'm on the continent and do a scintific comparision. I think comparisions to wages in other countries have little to no relevance (I am aware that you said I should get more than some workers in Europe).

Yup, totally agree with this. Many people are unaware that most Germans don't actually live in Munich, Frankfurt or Hamburg. In regular cities the size of e.g., Cork, you have good public transport, childcare facilities and hospitals. A beer can be as low (from my experience) as €1 or €1.50 in local bars. Berlin is an exception to be a capital city that is signficantly lower in cost of living compared to other capital cities. E.g., small cities like Freiburg im Breisgau you'd quite easily have a pizza for €3.50 in a restaurant, and Ive seen similar in Munich (very nice Italian places - but more like €5-6).

It's completely possible to live in a city in Germany on 20k with your family. It';s completely impossible in Ireland as the government here replicated the feudalistic pyramid to drag the wealth to Dublin - like London and Paris - with the result being devastating. Germany has far more equal and comparable distribution of wealth among cities and so too does the Netherlands (to an extent - in the Randstad at least). You don't have most of Germany being poor like Northern England and 20 million people living in Berlin (because that is the equal comparison to London).

Our government has replicated the UK system of industry and that is why 40% of the population live in one city. It's basically a smaller version of the slums of Rio.

It's also relatively insane overall IMO to compare Ireland to Germany. Population wise, we should be making comparisons to similarly sized economies like Denmark (~ 4.5 million?), Norway, or at a push, Switzerland (8 million) or Netherlands (16 million). Why not compare the salaries for a clerical officer in Dublin to a clerical officer in a small town in Idaho?

In my opinion, the best functioning small and geographically isolated economies like Denmark or Norway get by with high taxes (not as high as my net tax was in Ireland when I left), but also far more social cohesion; this is virtually impossible without the language to act as social glue, and keep communties developing as a consensus instead of 1870s era US individualism that dominates Ireland.

LoanShark · 14-05-2011 09:19PM

It's kinda a sad sign of affairs when a person who's employed to photocopy and write a few letters get paid in the reigon of €22k starting off und rising to €35k for doing the same role a few years later..., Yet fairly recently student nurses we being asked to do their job for nothing... As always with the PS the front line gets shafted the most and the monkies get rewarded..

irishh_bob · 14-05-2011 09:25PM

dissed doc wrote: »

Yup, totally agree with this. Many people are unaware that most Germans don't actually live in Munich, Frankfurt or Hamburg. In regular cities the size of e.g., Cork, you have good public transport, childcare facilities and hospitals. A beer can be as low (from my experience) as €1 or €1.50 in local bars. Berlin is an exception to be a capital city that is signficantly lower in cost of living compared to other capital cities. E.g., small cities like Freiburg im Breisgau you'd quite easily have a pizza for €3.50 in a restaurant, and Ive seen similar in Munich (very nice Italian places - but more like €5-6).

It's completely possible to live in a city in Germany on 20k with your family. It';s completely impossible in Ireland as the government here replicated the feudalistic pyramid to drag the wealth to Dublin - like London and Paris - with the result being devastating. Germany has far more equal and comparable distribution of wealth among cities and so too does the Netherlands (to an extent - in the Randstad at least). You don't have most of Germany being poor like Northern England and 20 million people living in Berlin (because that is the equal comparison to London).

Our government has replicated the UK system of industry and that is why 40% of the population live in one city. It's basically a smaller version of the slums of Rio.

It's also relatively insane overall IMO to compare Ireland to Germany. Population wise, we should be making comparisons to similarly sized economies like Denmark (~ 4.5 million?), Norway, or at a push, Switzerland (8 million) or Netherlands (16 million). Why not compare the salaries for a clerical officer in Dublin to a clerical officer in a small town in Idaho?

In my opinion, the best functioning small and geographically isolated economies like Denmark or Norway get by with high taxes (not as high as my net tax was in Ireland when I left), but also far more social cohesion; this is virtually impossible without the language to act as social glue, and keep communties developing as a consensus instead of 1870s era US individualism that dominates Ireland.

you think individualism and a frontier spirit are common in ireland ?

irishh_bob · 14-05-2011 09:29PM

LoanShark wrote: »

It's kinda a sad sign of affairs when a person who's employed to photocopy and write a few letters get paid in the reigon of €22k starting off und rising to €35k for doing the same role a few years later..., Yet fairly recently student nurses we being asked to do their job for nothing... As always with the PS the front line gets shafted the most and the monkies get rewarded..

how many apprentices get paid in other jobs in this country , nurses being paid as students were the exception to the rule in most cases , prior to 2008 , nurses started off on 33 k per year once qualified and the average nurse was on a grand per week

How much do you think I should get paid?

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