Is college pointless?

doopa · 13-05-2011 01:42PM

#15 wrote: »

Wages:

On a more general note, the whole education system itself is outdated IMO. I'm not sure curriculum should be driven by a national agenda. I think it would be much better for schools and parents to work together in setting a local curriculum that would respond to the needs of the children. Contrary to some baseless assertions in this thread, most educators do care about outcomes for their students.
IMO, the 'one size fits all' method leaves too many children behind. That is not to say that there shouldn't be high standards.
This talk is always worth a look.

Excellent video - I was looking for this to post to this thread. Thanks.

srsly78 · 13-05-2011 02:44PM

He actually thinks a software developers skillset is on a par with a teacher, and they should earn the same? How about no? :notsureifsrs:

Guess what Wick, this software developer is actually qualified to teach Mathematics and Science. Most teachers aren't.

Permabear · 13-05-2011 02:49PM

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RonMexico · 13-05-2011 03:22PM

I think that there is a massive problem with the current education system. It is one big vicious circle from primary right through to third level.

The Leaving Cert is broken. The emphasis is now on learning off material to pass an exam. Students are choosing courses based on the points they get, coupled with a half assed idea as to what they want to do for the rest of their lives (not their fault, but a critical error in the system).

University is plagued with grade inflation which is lowering the value of degree's year in year out. The hunger for more registration fee's has led to this in my opinion, colleges are taking in more and more students because they are starved financially. As a result the standard is deliberately lowered to facilitate weaker students.

You then get the likes of teacher training colleges churning out more and more students who have benefited from grade inflation, who then go back into the system as qualified teachers (more of a problem in terms of BA degree students IMO). From what I have seen, many of these students are not fit to be teachers.

Education is now becoming an exercise in memory training from secondary right through to third level. Critical & creative thinking on the other hand is falling by the wayside.

Anyway, there is a lot more to it than that but I'd be here all day if I was going to delve into it any further.

dvpower · 13-05-2011 03:50PM

Permabear wrote: »

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I don't have a ultimate source for these figures, but if they are any way accurate, then its not pointless at all, especially as long as the state subsidises third level education.

http://www.freakonomics.com/2011/04/15/new-freakonomics-podcast-does-college-still-matter-and-other-freak-y-questions-answered/

Stephen Levitt wrote:

And the numbers that people have come up with over and over are that every extra year of education that you get will translate into an 8 percent increase in earnings over your lifetime. So someone who graduated from college will earn about 30 percent more on average than someone who only graduated from high school

dvpower · 13-05-2011 04:03PM

Wicknight wrote: »

No it isn't. In my experience the only people who think like this are very young people who have zero responsibilities and think anything is better than the minimum wage job they had waiting tables in college.

Throw a mortgage, a few kids, bills, a car, savings etc and that 50k is gone pretty fast.

Also older people who now earn much more than that and who now have a mortgage, a few kids, bills, a car, savings etc

€50k with no reponsibilities is pretty good going.

Bottle_of_Smoke · 13-05-2011 04:18PM

dvpower wrote: »

I don't have a ultimate source for these figures, but if they are any way accurate, then its not pointless at all, especially as long as the state subsidises third level education.

http://www.freakonomics.com/2011/04/15/new-freakonomics-podcast-does-college-still-matter-and-other-freak-y-questions-answered/

Ah here, that's averaging what doctors/actuaries/engineers etc earn with what an arts graduate working in mcdonalds earns, I wouldn't read too much into it

dvpower · 13-05-2011 04:22PM

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Ah here, that's averaging what doctors/actuaries/engineers etc earn with what an arts graduate working in mcdonalds earns, I wouldn't read too much into it

Its quite broad, I'll give you that, but the question ("Is college pointless?") is even more broad.

Anyway, if you strip out all of the arts graduates working in McDonalds (or anywhere else where a college education isn't generally required), that would widen the gap even further.

Byron85 · 13-05-2011 04:59PM

The system needs a shakeup in general. I posted the following comment on my facebook account a few days ago:

Finds it somewhat funny that the idea of studying among the younger folk in college is to learn off essays. It's not the leaving cert folks. You actually have to think.

It's exam month at the moment, hence the post. Now a female friend of mine replied to it with the following:

Well when lecturers give out essay titles (or near enough to) then preparing the essay in advance and learning it off is the only real way to make sure you're at the top of the class. And the hard part of writing the essay still has to be done, it doesn't matter whether it's in the exam hall or in the library. Writing it in advance means you can present the information more coherently and have more time to actually come up with some unique insight.

This girl has been accepted into UCL. I know her personally, is far from stupid and works remarkably hard in college but I find her post very disconcerting. For exams I don't learn off essays. I can't. I learn the information and if it sticks, it sticks. I really thought that people had moved past the "skill" of learning off essays in third level but it seems that the lecturers aren't doing enough to encourage people to stop doing it. What's the point of going to third level if all you're going to do is learn off huge chunks of information and not entirely understand it?

Our best thinkers are not going to be the best simply because they can learn off reams of information. They come into being by thinking about the information, analysing it and setting out their own criticisms or views of the information. Foucault didn't become a great thinker by learning off mountains of data about the carceral system. He understood its methods and various machinations. Learning data is nothing. Understanding and being able to formulate your own hypothesis from the data is everything.

Permabear · 13-05-2011 05:28PM

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dvpower · 13-05-2011 05:56PM

Permabear wrote: »

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I guess it depends on the job and the collage course. General business degrees probably don't really have very much real world advantage for people going into the jobs they get with their general business degrees.

That's probably not so true in more technical or specialised areas. There's probably something to be said for making more use of an apprenticeship model.

Permabear wrote: »

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Do people who don't attend college perform better?
I'd say this is a failure of secondary (or primary) level education.

TaraFoxglove · 13-05-2011 06:38PM

Wicknight wrote: »

No it isn't. In my experience the only people who think like this are very young people who have zero responsibilities and think anything is better than the minimum wage job they had waiting tables in college.

Nope, I know a fair few middle-aged people who would be pleased to get 50k a year.

I find that very difficult to believe

Well it's true.

Where the heck did you work?

A public sector scientific quango. Quality control.

I've no doubt. The company you worked for was ripping off its employees big time (if we assume your story is true)

Why would I make that up?

And nope, we were well paid comparing with other salaries in the area.

This one. The one where the average salary in IT for a developer is $75,000 (50k euro). An average brought down by things like call centre staff

I don't see how this is relevant to 50k being very easy to live on.

You don't get extra money for holidays, as such it is irrelevant to the original objection to the idea that people become teachers for the money.

Nope, but you get paid to take long holidays.

Gotta say, you're coming across as very money-grubbing in your posts.

Permabear · 13-05-2011 06:57PM

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dvpower · 13-05-2011 07:12PM

Permabear wrote: »

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Probably true for most things that are very general. A general business degree isn't going to get you into many jobs much higher than entry level.
A person without a degree who spent the 3-4 years learning the business is probably much more valuable.
Problem is that in a tight labour market the graduate is competing for the entry level jobs, so its back to using the degree as some kind of benchmark.

Permabear wrote: »

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I wouldn't have much of an expectation that someone who attended college would be any more highly educated, in general, than a person who didn't - except in the area that they studied.

Permabear wrote: »

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I agree.
Primary education to give a foundation, secondary for rounding; third level for specialisation.

LighterGuy · 13-05-2011 10:13PM

I dont think college education is pointless. A person can get a good paying job. Of course depending on what degree they get.

However, I would say the leaving cert/Junior cert holds nothing in the world!
Sure even if you didnt get the best results to gain the chosen college course you can just wait 3-4 years and apply as a mature student.

And as the classic thing people say ... what does history and geography have much in the word place?

Earthhorse · 16-05-2011 08:52PM

In order to answer the question "Is college pointless?" we must ask what is the point, the purpose, of college? The truth is, as with almost all institutions, the point of college, of third level institutions, is largely to ensure their own survival. At present survival of these institutions is a matter of finances which can be secured primarily from two locations; graduate fees and research grants (i.e. funding).

So the people in charge of these institutions are incentivised to get as many graduates through their doors at an "acceptable" level of education and to secure as much funding as possible by any means possible. I don't really know a lot about how third level funding works, I imagine it entails a lot of hob-knobbing and purchased status ("We'll name this lecture theatre after you, Mr. Branson) so I won't talk about it.

An "acceptable" level of education for a college's graduates is whatever employers will consider as useful in screening applicants; once it drops below that students will no longer see the degree as useful (the vast, vast majority of students in our system are there simply to get a degree as a means of gaining employment). The problem with this is that industry is essentially willing to outsource it's training to an institution over which it exerts no real influence. It seems like a clever move at first; the cost of training people on the job is huge and, once completed, companies are likely to see many of their trainees jump ship to a competitor for a better wage now that they've completed their apprenticeship. But it's quite clear, from comments emerging from those in industry, that the number of people gaming this system is beginning to bite. Graduates, outside the top universities, are difficult to assess but industry is left with no choice but to hire someone and this ends up being a very expensive exercise for them.

To answer the question then, I think, from a cynical point of view, college is still quite useful. The survival of universities is ensured because they're engaged in a game in which they cannot be fairly assessed, undergraduates, especially those from the top universities, get the door to employment opened if they get an honours degree, industry gets to outsource it's training, or the illusion of training, and thus culpability in the area of hiring to a poorly measured standard and life goes on.

I see no reason to single out the Irish system as being especially worse than the American or English one, those being the countries which we are mostly broadly similar to. And whilst I don't agree that third level should function in the manner described in my post, the truth is that all systems like this end up being gamed. It's always difficult, in fact it's nigh on impossible to incentivise the desired behaviour; if someone comes up with a better way to then I'm sure it will flourish and survive.

Mr. Loverman · 17-05-2011 08:08PM

Studying makes your brain more efficient.

Unfortunately most people are not able to motivate themselves to study for the fun of it.

So, no, I don't think college is pointless, but it is definitely a bit inefficient; I could have done my entire degree in about 12 months.

Rubik. · 17-05-2011 08:47PM

A male student who completes a university degree can look forward to a gross earnings premium over his lifetime of more than $186 000 on average across OECD countries, compared with someone who only completes secondary school.
For a woman the figure is lower, reflecting the disparity in most countries between male and female earnings, but it still averages out at just over $134,000.
The highest earnings advantages are in the US, where a male graduate can expect to earn more than $367,000 extra over his lifetime and a female graduate more than $229,000.
Italy comes second for men, with an average lifetime earnings advantage of just over $322,000, and Portugal for women, with an average advantage of nearly $220,000.
In Ireland, the value for a male is $230,823 and $178,118 for a female.

http://www.finfacts.ie/irishfinancenews/article_1017843.shtml

Dudess · 17-05-2011 08:58PM

Very much not, unless a person really dislikes it. Some people maybe shouldn't be there though - those who just bitch about it and then sneer at it when they're finished. Reintroduction of fees (but very rigorously means-tested) might soften such coughs.

irishh_bob · 20-05-2011 05:03PM

all depends on what course is chosen , my sister ( who is just gone 24 ) has been arsing around different colleges and courses since 2006 , shes studying drama :rolleyes: and is in england at the moment , not a hint of a sign of a worthwhile qualification and not a hope in hell of ever getting a well paid job out of it

whiteonion · 22-05-2011 01:24AM

For most people college/uni seems to be a 4-5 year long bender. I associate college/uni with binge drinking and very little time studying for exams.

Byron85 · 22-05-2011 11:02PM

whiteonion wrote: »

For most people college/uni seems to be a 4-5 year long bender. I associate college/uni with binge drinking and very little time studying for exams.

That's part of the reason why i'd make people wait an extra year or so before they want to go to college. For example, maybe make a PLC course in advance of applying to a university compulsory in order to make it something similar to the A Levels over in England. Far too many people start third level with either an opaque view of what they want to do or go in completely blind and end up coasting through it. Third level should be about challenging you, not babysitting you.

I initially went to college when I was 18 to study journalism. I finished first year but then for various reasons I didn't continue. I bummed around for a while and got a few jobs. Then I went back to college when I was 23, did a PLC course in Applied Psychology and got into UCC to do an Arts degree. I also got offers from UCD. The PLC course helped me get back into the academic mindset and also prepare me in general. As a result of this and the time off I took for a few years, i'm far more focused than 90% of the people I know. I've just finished 2nd year and i've got my postgrad applications picked out already.

Acacia · 24-05-2011 04:20PM

When I first saw the thread title, I got quite upset at the thought of college being pointless and was ready to write a passionate response about how great college is... but having read the thread, I can actually see that the college experience, as it stands in Ireland, is in a pretty bad way.

I think this is partly due to ,to echo Liah and Valmont, the treatment of students in secondary school. Speaking from my own experience, any enjoyment I derived from learning new things in school or studying different subjects, was completely drained out of me by around 3rd Year i.e. the Junior Cert.
Why did I continue to study and do well at school? Not from any real love of learning, but because it was drilled into me that to fail at school was to be a failure in life. If I failed my JC, I wouldn't get into Honours classes in 5th and 6th Year. If I failed my Leaving, I'd never get into college and my life would be over before it started! So I worked very hard to ensure that didn't happen... well, I got into college, went through the system... also did a Masters... and my degree is effectively worthless.

The 'degree-factory' nature of college didn't particularly help revive my love of learning . While on the face of things, we were told that our opinions were more important that spouting off lecture notes, the fact that, for example, tutorials( where we could freely debate and discuss ideas) were cancelled in favour of online quizzes to add to our overall module marks, showed that the churning out of graduates was more important than what the students actually learned.

Still, I'm reluctant to say college is completely 'pointless'. Even from a non-economic point-of-view, the experience of finding your feet in the adult world is pretty important and is necessitated very well in a college environment. However, for your average student, pushed into a college course they're not sure about by so-called 'guidance counsellors', coasting by on easy marks because the college wants to churn out higher marked degrees and spending most of the time getting drunk (perhaps because they feel they have to find some way to release the pressure built from the secondary school exam system)... well, the experience may not be pointless, but it's pretty damn close.

Well, that's just my rant on the matter, as I'm feeling quite disillusioned by the whole education system here.I suppose it doesn't help that there is a recession, but even so, with so many students going to college just for the sake it, or because they're told they have to in order to be a successful, worthwhile members of society, my degree value is pretty much zero.

Nolanger · 04-06-2011 02:49PM

Acacia wrote: »

with so many students going to college just for the sake it, or because they're told they have to in order to be a successful, worthwhile members of society, my degree value is pretty much zero.

Everyone has a degree now so they're worthless. It's this 'Education for all' that's to blame. We need more kids leaving school at 15 and setting up their own business rather than producing overeducated gimps who can't tell the difference between 'lose' and 'loose'!

whydoibother? · 04-06-2011 05:28PM

Nolanger wrote: »

Everyone has a degree now so they're worthless. It's this 'Education for all' that's to blame. We need more kids leaving school at 15 and setting up their own business rather than producing overeducated gimps who can't tell the difference between 'lose' and 'loose'!

The fact that everyone has a degree makes it even more necessary if you're to compete in any meaningful way in the jobs market. You now need a degree as a minimum requirement to get jobs my parents generation would have gotten with a leaving cert.

Secondly, being self-employed carries risks. Many self-employed people would have suffered hugely in the last few years. Some people choose to take those risks for the rewards that go with it, but I don't think it's a life choice that should be forced on anyone because there isn't a college place for them.

Incidentally, and this isn't directed particularly at the post I've quoted, I don't subscribe to the view that education is a privilege. I believe it is a right. It may be reasonable to ask students to contribute to funding that right but I don't know any other country where it's seen as anything other than a right. I think it's a product of our cultural background that we see it as unacceptable to say we feel "entitled" to anything positive. "Sense of entitlement" is a dirty phrase. Good old Catholic guilt. Therefore the suggestions that we should construct a system with limited places that deprives some people of the chance of a third level education disturb me.

Nolanger · 04-06-2011 07:08PM

whydoibother? wrote: »

Therefore the suggestions that we should construct a system with limited places that deprives some people of the chance of a third level education disturb me.

You probably think everyone has the same intelligence level too! College is not for everyone. Particularly Irish colleges which most are not world class. Putting everyone into college does more harm than good. We've now produced a generation of graduates who can't think for themselves, can't create their own job opportunities, can't take risks, have zero entrepreneurship, and must emigrate because they expect a job from their degree.

whydoibother? · 04-06-2011 11:03PM

Nolanger wrote: »

You probably think everyone has the same intelligence level too! College is not for everyone. Particularly Irish colleges which most are not world class. Putting everyone into college does more harm than good. We've now produced a generation of graduates who can't think for themselves, can't create their own job opportunities, can't take risks, have zero entrepreneurship, and must emigrate because they expect a job from their degree.

Nowhere did I indicate that I think everybody has the same intelligence level. Of course I don't. Please don't make wild assumptions about what I think. College isn't for everyone but it should be for everyone that wants to learn. I don't know why you think going to college interferes with a persons ability to think. I also don't know how you argue that someone who doesn't have the intelligence for college should set up a business or become an entrepreneur and take the attendant risks. Why are you assuming that the person would have the necessary talents for that? An education followed by emigration is better than failed businesses and life-changing debts if their "risks" don't work out.

Nolanger · 05-06-2011 06:06PM

whydoibother? wrote: »

Nowhere did I indicate that I think everybody has the same intelligence level. Of course I don't. Please don't make wild assumptions about what I think. College isn't for everyone but it should be for everyone that wants to learn.

Not true, People who learn from experience are better off. College is for intelligent people. However, that's different to clever people. All successful people are clever. But not all successful people are intelligent!

whydoibother? wrote: »

I don't know why you think going to college interferes with a persons ability to think.

It does, especially in the arts. Very little new ideas have come out of colleges. Instead they take things done already and refine these for teaching purposes. People who can do, people who can't teach!

whydoibother? wrote: »

I also don't know how you argue that someone who doesn't have the intelligence for college should set up a business or become an entrepreneur and take the attendant risks. Why are you assuming that the person would have the necessary talents for that?

Because there's more to succeeding in life than intelligence or a qualification. People with networking skills, communication skills, and risk ability achieve more in life than people with a piece of paper!

whydoibother? wrote: »

An education followed by emigration is better than failed businesses and life-changing debts if their "risks" don't work out.

If that's the case they'd be better off emigrating straight after school and attending college abroad.

southsiderosie · 05-06-2011 09:00PM

whydoibother? wrote: »

Nowhere did I indicate that I think everybody has the same intelligence level. Of course I don't. Please don't make wild assumptions about what I think. College isn't for everyone but it should be for everyone that wants to learn.

No, a university education should be for those who have the capacity to learn and keep up at a university level. Desire and capacity are two different animals. If I fail my driver's exam, should I be allowed to drive anyway because I want to, or think it is a right?

There should be plenty of opportunities for "lifelong learning", but this does not have to happen within universities - trade schools and community colleges can also play a role.

whydoibother? wrote: »

I don't know why you think going to college interferes with a persons ability to think. I also don't know how you argue that someone who doesn't have the intelligence for college should set up a business or become an entrepreneur and take the attendant risks. Why are you assuming that the person would have the necessary talents for that?

What talents do you think go into entrepreneurship that are taught at a university level?

whydoibother? wrote: »

An education followed by emigration is better than failed businesses and life-changing debts if their "risks" don't work out.

This makes me feel very American. What is so wrong with starting a business and failing? In the US, most successful businesspeople have experienced some failure along the way - it's almost a badge of honor. Yet in Ireland, people are comparatively quite negative about entrepreneurship and risk-taking. Not to mention the fact that Irish bankruptcy laws greatly inhibit entrepreneurship, because people have no way to make themselves whole again once they've taken a risk.

whydoibother? · 06-06-2011 11:30AM

southsiderosie wrote: »

No, a university education should be for those who have the capacity to learn and keep up at a university level. Desire and capacity are two different animals. If I fail my driver's exam, should I be allowed to drive anyway because I want to, or think it is a right?

There should be plenty of opportunities for "lifelong learning", but this does not have to happen within universities - trade schools and community colleges can also play a role.

What talents do you think go into entrepreneurship that are taught at a university level?

This makes me feel very American. What is so wrong with starting a business and failing? In the US, most successful businesspeople have experienced some failure along the way - it's almost a badge of honor. Yet in Ireland, people are comparatively quite negative about entrepreneurship and risk-taking. Not to mention the fact that Irish bankruptcy laws greatly inhibit entrepreneurship, because people have no way to make themselves whole again once they've taken a risk.

My comments were confined to people who want to go to college and most of those who do, and have the grades to get in are capable of completing courses. Entrance requirements mean that generally people do have the capacity for the courses they choose. What I was objecting to, drastically reducing the number of courses as has been proposed by many previous posters. That will just lead to ridiculous inflation of entry requirements as we previously saw with courses like medicine. In relation to your drivers exam analogy. I'm not saying you should be granted a licence if you fail your exam, I'm merely arguing for your right to have lessons. You should be given a chance first. Also please note that I said "college" should be for everybody who wants to learn, not "university". I had anticipated the life-long learning point.

The kind of skills for entrepreneurship that I would see as relevant being taught in a college could come from potentially any field. Business is the first obvious example - somebody who understands market research, financial planning, management, accounting, product design etc. (I could go on forever) will have a stronger chance when they apply this in conjunction with their "gut feeling" that there is a gap in the market for something than somebody who does it all on instinct. Somebody from a non business field may see a gap. A chemistry graduate may think of something that would be a real hit in that industry that the average person without any particular science knowledge could never come up with. College is a life experience too.

In relation to the starting up a business and failing, as you say due to Irish bankruptcy laws it's not a good thing. You can't learn and move on as easily as in other countries. I also would like to point out that I never said that people should never take risks. I just think that nobody should be forced into it because it's the only option available to them. If someone fancies themselves as the next Bill Gates, good luck to them. But there has to be options for people who don't particularly have that kind of nature. Some people just aren't naturally entrepreneurs.

Is college pointless?

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