Burka ban

Mark Hamill wrote: »

If a women is beaten by her husband, its abuse. If a women thinks she deserves to be beaten by her husband, its still abuse.

I happen to run a website the sells lingerie, sex toys, and bondage gear. You might be very surprised at how many women like being whipped by their men! I've seen the scars and they say there is no bigger turn on. I'm not into it myself but should we fine these women for wanting to be whipped? No rational reason for it is there? It's definitely abuse. Forget about the fine... I say imprison them! (if any of my customers read this - I'm just kidding )

All these empty assertions, that these women have considered their options freely, have freely and without any physical or spiritual coercion chosen to wear the burka

Empty? You are unbelievable. Again you choose to totally ignore the women's views on the matter. "No, your a woman, you can't possible have decided you want to live by this culture, I won't allow it!!" You sound a lot like the Islamic men actually. "I will make your decisions. You can't possibly be capable."

If they aren't indoctrinated then the women should have rational reasons for wearing the burka. Not necessarily every women, but you would expect at least 1 out of the millions across the world who do wear the burka do have some rational reason.

Ahhhhhh!!!.... so they CAN have a rational reason...? FINALLY!! 1/1,000,000 doesn't sound right to me though. The French's best guess is less then half the women are coerced but it's only a guess as asking a religious question is illegal in France. A BBC reporter did find 21 Burka wearers in London but they ALL said they were wearing it of their own free will.

So Mark you have admitted that some of these women can have a rational reason to wear Burka but like the rest of us you have no idea how many. Wouldn't it be a good idea to find out before criminalising them? That was a stupid question. The women (ie. the victims) should NEVER have been criminalised. Wouldn't it be a good idea to find out before stripping them of their rights?

Scotty # wrote: »

I happen to run a website the sells lingerie, sex toys, and bondage gear. You might be very surprised at how many women like being whipped by their men! I've seen the scars and they say there is no bigger turn on. I'm not into it myself but should we fine these women for wanting to be whipped? No rational reason for it is there? It's definitely abuse. Forget about the fine... I say imprison them! (if any of my customers read this - I'm just kidding )

I'm not talking about the ones who get sexual enjoyment from it, I'm talking about the ones who are unlawfully abuse by their husbands, but through battered persons syndrome, have come to believe they deserve it. I have made this point several times before, dont make me repeat it.

Scotty # wrote: »

Empty? You are unbelievable. Again you choose to totally ignore the women's views on the matter. "No, your a woman, you can't possible have decided you want to live by this culture, I won't allow it!!" You sound a lot like the Islamic men actually. "I will make your decisions. You can't possibly be capable."

I'm really getting sick of this sexism coming from you. Where have I said that they haven't made a free choice simply because they are women? Ignoring my points to make very serious allegations of sexism is, Im sure, against the charter, so drop it.

Scotty # wrote: »

Ahhhhhh!!!.... so they CAN have a rational reason...? FINALLY!! 1/1,000,000 doesn't sound right to me though. The French's best guess is less then half the women are coerced but it's only a guess as asking a religious question is illegal in France. A BBC reporter did find 21 Burka wearers in London but they ALL said they were wearing it of their own free will.

Fcuks sake man! When did I say that there couldn't possibly be a rational reason to wear the burka? I have repeatedly admitted that it might be possible and I have repeatedly asked for the reasons that you lot seem to think exist just in case there is a rational one. One has not been forthcoming. While only half the women are physically coerced, the rest still have not shown a rational, non indoctrinated (and therefore truly free) reason to wear the burka.

Scotty # wrote: »

So Mark you have admitted that some of these women can have a rational reason to wear Burka but like the rest of us you have no idea how many. Wouldn't it be a good idea to find out before criminalising them? That was a stupid question. The women (ie. the victims) should NEVER have been criminalised. Wouldn't it be a good idea to find out before stripping them of their rights?

Ok, last chance, lie again about me and no more posting with you. I have found out the reasoning behind the burka (which you seem to have no idea of) and I have even asked on this very thread for the reasoning others have heard to make sure I haven't missed anything. Nothing has overcome the inherent sexism and oppression in the burka (detailed in the middle of this response to Valmont) and while I'm open to the possibility of something coming along, you need to actually present something for me to disregard my long considered conclusion.

njgallagher wrote: »

I didn't read every post but I think the government should have a poll in which only muslim women can vote, they can decide themselves whether they want to keep the burkas or not.

Perhaps you should have...

Scotty # wrote: »

I happen to run a website the sells lingerie, sex toys, and bondage gear. You might be very surprised at how many women like being whipped by their men! I've seen the scars and they say there is no bigger turn on. I'm not into it myself but should we fine these women for wanting to be whipped? No rational reason for it is there? It's definitely abuse. Forget about the fine... I say imprison them! (if any of my customers read this - I'm just kidding [IMG]file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/C0708805/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/msohtml1/16/clip_image001.gif[/IMG])

http://www.lawnix.com/cases/r-brown.html

Scotty # wrote: »

Empty? You are unbelievable. Again you choose to totally ignore the women's views on the matter. "No, your a woman, you can't possible have decided you want to live by this culture, I won't allow it!!" You sound a lot like the Islamic men actually. "I will make your decisions. You can't possibly be capable."

This is a gross misrepresentation, and I am pretty sure you know that. No one on the pro-ban side is suggesting the choice is bad because they are a woman. The pro-ban side, at least here, is saying that the choice they are making, whilst appearing to be freely made, is not freely made but to the levels of cultural and familial pressure and indoctrination that is applied.

Even new converts that decide to wear the burka will have pressure. Joining a new religion is a pretty big deal. If you have been suckered to believe the religion then you are likely to do whatever you are told you have to do. Again, this is not really free will. The choice of doing something and living forever and not doing something and burning in hell for eternity is not really a choice. Clearly for us it is not problem. We don’t believe in hell, so why would we be bothered?

Scotty # wrote: »

Ahhhhhh!!!.... so they CAN have a rational reason...? FINALLY!! 1/1,000,000 doesn't sound right to me though. The French's best guess is less then half the women are coerced but it's only a guess as asking a religious question is illegal in France. A BBC reporter did find 21 Burka wearers in London but they ALL said they were wearing it of their own free will.

You have a very very different idea of free will.

Scotty # wrote: »

So Mark you have admitted that some of these women can have a rational reason to wear Burka but like the rest of us you have no idea how many. Wouldn't it be a good idea to find out before criminalising them? That was a stupid question. The women (ie. the victims) should NEVER have been criminalised. Wouldn't it be a good idea to find out before stripping them of their rights?

I love the way you just dismiss the fact that several hundred women are coerced into wearing this.

MrP

njgallagher wrote: »

Then maybe it should be more a part of the education system than law.

But what if the educational establishments peddle the same sh1t?

MrP

Mark Hamill wrote: »

I have repeatedly admitted that it might be possible and I have repeatedly asked for the reasons that you lot seem to think exist.

Clearly the women's individual's testimony, though she/he may be well educated and in sound body and mind, is not enough as you have chosen to disregard it again and again. So could you please enlighten me as to what evidence I can produce that you would not disregard? None, I suspect.

MrPudding wrote: »

The pro-ban side, at least here, is saying that the choice they are making, whilst appearing to be freely made, is not freely made

Again... what evidence do you need to see? They say they are not indoctrinated, they say they are not coerced, they say they want to wear it. What makes you think you know better???

Here is a report on Burka wearing women in France. Please read it. Please pay particular attention to the parts about how some of these women are wearing the Burka against their husbands/families wishes, how some only wear them for particular occasions, how ALL have made an informed decision to wear it, about how only ONE of all those interviewed was encouraged by her husband, and how only ONE of all those interviewed belongs to an Islamic organisation.

njgallagher wrote: »

I don't see how banning burkas would help then. You'd have to ban Islam altogether!

Just ban the extreme parts (as we do) and educate to allow people to make a free decision to believe the rest. There will always be bad ideas, banning them all will take more effort in the long run than just instilling a sensibility in people that leads them to avoid them themselves.

To be honest I don't think rationality should be a key issue. It is possible for something to be irrational, but not the result of oppressive indoctrination. Therefore demonstrating that the burka is irrational doesn't mean we have demonstrated that it is the result of oppressive indoctrination.

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Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

This is not addressing my post. I was not saying the ban is justified by an argument for women's rights. I said the ultimate issue is not religious tolerance, as you say, but women's rights. I.e. The debate hinges on whether or not the burka is used to oppress women. Similarly, the mental acuity or rationality of women are irrelevant issues.

Scotty # wrote: »

If you look closer you will see I was talking to Mr. Pudding. Please keep up with thread.

It does not matter who you were talking to, the report was discussed and you didn't counter the points made already. That you bring up the report to someone else, as if it hadn't been dealt with, is very reminiscent of creationists bringing up the same debunked arguments in different environments, hoping that the people in each environment haven't heard the debunking yet.

Scotty # wrote: »

BTW: You did not discuss the report. You quoted one line of the introduction and disregarded the rest, as is your usual MO.

False, I discussed the reasoning detailed in the report, page 12 or 13 ( I think, you will have to go back to my posts and check). Your posts are borderline lying at this stage. I pointed to the part of the report that listed the womens reasons for wearing the burka and discussed them.

Scotty # wrote: »

~YAWN!!!~

Why do you insist on harping on about rationality? We've already shown that rationality, or lack of, is irrelevant.

While Morbert is correct that irrationality doesn't definitely imply indoctrination, its also true that all forms of oppressive indoctrination try to indoctrinate the irrational. Think about it, if an idea wasn't irrational, then it wouldn't need oppressive indoctrination. Your (supposed) inability to recognise the sexism and oppression in the burka is why the irrationality is brought up.

Scotty # wrote: »

The pro ban side has not shown one shred of evidence in this entire thread to backup their stance that these French women are victims of indoctrination or are coerced into wearing the Burka. I wonder why is that?

Regardless, I remain unconvinced that the ban serves any other purpose than to suppress Islam.

Au revoir.

I can only conclude you entered this discussion unwilling to be convinced, I cannot understand, despite asking for explanations, how anyone can see the burka as being anything but sexist, oppressive and indoctrinated. No-one on the pro burka side has shown, at all, that they understand what the burka is for and whether they believe it to be a reasonable solution for a problem t supposes exists. All I see is knee jerk libertarianism, a mindless idea that, despite every other law in existence which they have no problem with, the government can by no means tell its people what to do.

To me burka bans is just like a autocratic decision of a government nothing else. It is good for the ladies who were forced to wear it despite it making no sense to them, but quite bad for those who didn't liked to come into eyes of public under legal order. There should be option for those who do not want to lose the cover of burka with their own wish.

You can say this since you haven't been part of any such religion or place where it is followed. You can get altogether different perception behind wearing the burka. P.S. I am personally not that big supporter of burka as it may look here. Since to me it appears someone has stolen freedom to live from the ladies forced to have it over them. But still wanted to leave a space for ladies that personally feel to go for it for their custom, beliefs etc.

my sister worked in a salon in stafford and there was a burka wearing lady a client there. when this lady came in for her hair cut, her husband made the staff lock the doors, the blinds had to be pulled down, the male trainee had leave the building and the stylists had to sign a contract saying that they would never reveal what the lady looked like to anyone. he also dictated how much length was to be cut of her hair. my sister said the lady was a nice easy going person and did not seem to mind all these precautions being taken to keep her looks a secret.
if that was an irish lady and her partner acting in this manner, most people would think the man an oppresive control freak and the lady a docile submissive victim! but a burka seems to make this behaviour acceptible, just part of their culture. which would leave me to conclude that the burka is a tool of oppression and i would be in favour of a ban. a muslim lady can still protect her modest and religous beliefs with loose baggy clothing and head scarves like millions of others do.

tinytank wrote: »

my sister worked in a salon in stafford and there was a burka wearing lady a client there. when this lady came in for her hair cut, her husband made the staff lock the doors, the blinds had to be pulled down, the male trainee had leave the building and the stylists had to sign a contract saying that they would never reveal what the lady looked like to anyone. he also dictated how much length was to be cut of her hair. my sister said the lady was a nice easy going person and did not seem to mind all these precautions being taken to keep her looks a secret.
if that was an irish lady and her partner acting in this manner, most people would think the man an oppresive control freak and the lady a docile submissive victim! but a burka seems to make this behaviour acceptible, just part of their culture. which would leave me to conclude that the burka is a tool of oppression and i would be in favour of a ban. a muslim lady can still protect her modest and religous beliefs with loose baggy clothing and head scarves like millions of others do.

In that case the husband should have become a barber for her wife and other similar members of his family. I accept your argument and suggestion that there are other means of keeping the modesty.

To me it looks ridiculous and such kind of people should live only where the likes of Talibanis and Al-queda rule the roost.