Eddie Hobbs goes over the edge

hatrickpatrick · 11-05-2011 02:10PM

I'd be ok with it only if there was equality. I'm normally a defender of the public sector here but why are they getting special treatment? Why is a public sector employee's pensions more deserving than a private one?

Are we not all created equal?

beeftotheheels · 11-05-2011 02:11PM

bluewolf wrote: »

Sums up the problems really

https://web.actuaries.ie/sites/default/files/story/2011/05/110510%20Pension%20Fund%20Levy.pdf

Yes, that vested interests will report only those facts which support their position.

I'm not denying that we have a pensions crisis by the way, or denying that it is a good idea to invest in pensions, encourage investment in pensions.

But when you start talking about it being unfair to tax private funds and not public ones and ignore the fact that there are no public sector pension funds and thus nothing to tax, when you start crying about the tax being applied only to one form of investment and fail to acknowledge that other forms of investment are already subject to far more onerous tax obligations, and when you start criticizing a "wealth tax" for taking into account "wealth" and not income...

If they'd stopped the press release at the point where they dealt with the real pensions crisis I'd have been more impressed!

Riskymove · 11-05-2011 02:13PM

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

I'd be ok with it only if there was equality. I'm normally a defender of the public sector here but why are they getting special treatment? Why is a public sector employee's pensions more deserving than a private one?

Are we not all created equal?

perhaps you have not read through the thread

anyone with a private pension plan will pay the levy...including any PS that have one (and many do)

In general PS dont have a pension fund so therefore there is no fund to take this levy from....0.6% of 0 is 0

similarly Private sector workers dont pay the Pension Levies that PS do

Frank Black · 11-05-2011 02:28PM

Riskymove wrote: »

perhaps you have not read through the thread

anyone with a private pension plan will pay the levy...including any PS that have one (and many do)

In general PS dont have a pension fund so therefore there is no fund to take this levy from....0.6% of 0 is 0

similarly Private sector workers dont pay the Pension Levies that PS do

repeating the same point will not make it any more correct.

Most private sector workers would be more than happy to trade their market dependant defined contribution pensions for a defined benefit public sector pension for the cost of the public sector pension levy.

Just because some public servants can afford to take out their own private pension fund as well as the public sector one they are entitled to does not make this raid on pension funds fair or equitable.

Riskymove · 11-05-2011 02:31PM

does not make this raid on pension funds fair or equitable.

I never said it was fair or equitable

Frank Black · 11-05-2011 02:34PM

Riskymove wrote: »

I never said it was fair or equitable

So stop bringing up this point whenever someone mentions that it isn't so.

Riskymove · 11-05-2011 02:45PM

black francis wrote: »

So stop bringing up this point whenever someone mentions that it isn't so.

if someone claims that the levy will only apply to Private sector workers they are wrong and I feel free to correct them if I wish

that has nothing to do with whether or not the levy itself is fair or equitable

Frank Black · 11-05-2011 03:01PM

Riskymove wrote: »

if someone claims that the levy will only apply to Private sector workers they are wrong and I feel free to correct them if I wish

that has nothing to do with whether or not the levy itself is fair or equitable

It's great to have such pedantic people as you to point out people's mistakes.

For future posts, when people say 'it only affects private sector workers', - why don't you just mentally add 'and any extremely well off public sector workers who are able to afford to take out their own privately funded pension scheme to supplement their already obscenely generous public funded pension scheme".

Then that would save you having to type out the same point over and over in the same thread.

Riskymove · 11-05-2011 03:13PM

[QUOTE=black francis;72154509Then that would save you having to type out the same point over and over in the same thread.[/QUOTE]

but that would reduce the opportunities for yourself to come in and vent about PS, couldn't have that

Frank Black · 11-05-2011 03:31PM

Riskymove wrote: »

but that would reduce the opportunities for yourself to come in and vent about PS, couldn't have that

Yep, it was amazing I managed to restrain myself on the previous five posts where you made your (ahem) point.

And for me it's not really about the fact that it's almost
exclusively private sector pensions being raided (remember to add that line in I mentioned earlier) - although obviously that is quite unfair.

It's the principle of raiding peoples savings - and no matter how the government dress this up, it's what it amounts to.

And without wishing to repeat the same point (over and over) again - I don't have a problem making additional tax contributions - I just think this is a very dangerous road to go down.

Riskymove · 11-05-2011 03:40PM

black francis wrote: »

And for me it's not really about the fact that it's almost exclusively private sector pensions being raided (remember to add that line in I mentioned earlier)

No I would agree with that statement, it is mostly private sector workers affected

btw
in cases where PS have a fund its more likely to be people who will fall well short of full service and therefore will have a reduced occupational pension

the examples I know of are women who returned to the workplace after raising children or people who moved in form private sector late on

as tax law only allows pensions to a certain level, its unlikely anyone intending to recieve full service would invest money in one, especially with reducing tax relief etc.

beeftotheheels · 11-05-2011 03:47PM

black francis wrote: »

It's the principle of raiding peoples savings - and no matter how the government dress this up, it's what it amounts to.

And that is a fair point and one which will always arise when a new type of tax is introduced, it will depart from our previous expectations of what was to be taxed and we will struggle with it.

Ideologically a wealth tax on pensions (which are good) is completely different to a raise in the rates of tax, or a change to the tax base, or an increase in indirect tax on fags (which are bad).

But being different does not necessarily mean that it is wrong. In this case the levying of a tax on our future pensions gets weighed up against the possibility of stimulating the economy now.

I think we're going to see a lot more "new" taxes as the government tries to grapple with the deficit and shrinking economy.

The perceived wisdom that bold things like smoking should be taxed, while good things like pensions should not be taxed will be suspended for a while (I'm not advocating cutting the tax on fags, I'm suggesting that economic concerns will outweigh any other concerns for a while).

Once we get out of this mess then I would be completely in favor of getting rid of the levy and encouraging pension investment by individuals. It is an abhorrent tax in the normal scheme of things, just we are no where near normal at the moment.

invinciblePRSTV · 11-05-2011 04:06PM

black francis wrote: »

There's no doubt that a line has been crossed with this raid on peoples pensions.

Yes the ending of over generous tax reliefs endowed during bubble times really is crossing the line, shur it is....., what next, you going to complain because section 23 tax reliefs were abolished in the December budget?

black francis wrote: »

Idiotic posters on this thread like invinciblePRSTV and his ilk can waffle all they like about it being a claw-back of tax relief but the same argument could be used to raid peoples savings accounts - "sure we should have been taxing you at 45% instead of 41% so we're taking some of the money back".

I'm dealing in the facts here, me feiners like yourself can put your fingers in your ears and your hands over your eyes and pretend we're not in a fiscal crisis and that generous tax reliefs aren't subsidies. People like me who don't hold a biased viewpoint will point to this as one og many over generous provisions made during the bubble years.

black francis wrote: »

I understand that the government need to raise money from imaginative sources to fund this "jobs initiative" and as a tax-payer I'm will to contribute what's fair - but this completely undermines trust in the government and in a worst case will lead to a flight of capital from the country if people think their savings are fair game.

I have no doubt what you consider "fair" is other people sharing the pain instead of your pension pot.

Frank Black · 11-05-2011 04:14PM

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

I have no doubt what you consider "fair" is other people sharing the pain instead of your pension pot.

And I have no doubt you're a troll trying for a reaction.

Frank Black · 11-05-2011 04:21PM

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

Yes the ending of over generous tax reliefs endowed during bubble times really is crossing the line, shur it is....., what next, you going to complain because section 23 tax reliefs were abolished in the December budget?

By the way - you do know the difference between the ending of a tax relief and a raid on a pensions fund don't you?

probably not.

invinciblePRSTV · 11-05-2011 04:45PM

black francis wrote: »

And I have no doubt you're a troll trying for a reaction.

You're the one throwing the insults around. So answer me this, what funds the jobs initiative instead of this levy on pensions plans?

black francis wrote: »

By the way - you do know the difference between the ending of a tax relief and a raid on a pensions fund don't you?

probably not.

Lol, this coming from the guy who maintains that tax reliefs aren't a public subsidy. Here have a little read of this document, particularly under the taxation headings.

http://www.budget.gov.ie/budgets/2011/Documents/Budget%202011%20Leaflet.pdf

No mention of a "raid on pensions fund' just the ending of over generous tax reliefs. The Celtic tiger is over, severe austerity is here, you're just going to have to deal with it.

sceptre · 11-05-2011 04:52PM

black francis and invinciblePRSTV both get a forum holiday of seven days for repeatedly personalising the discussion and trading insults. None of the rest of us have time or patience for such behaviour. The forum charter is pretty clear.

/mod

themandan6611 · 11-05-2011 11:44PM

waster81 wrote: »

The pension industry could easily cut their fees and there would be no impact at all

or they could cut jobs instead :rolleyes:

doomed · 12-05-2011 12:30AM

Ireland still has a lot of wealth and much of this was accumulated by people benefiting from exactly the same policies that got us into trouble or sits in pension pots that were subsidised by the State. Is it really fair that all of that money is untouchable?

What part of sharing the pain do we not get?

eric hoone · 12-05-2011 01:02AM

doomed wrote: »

Ireland still has a lot of wealth and much of this was accumulated by people benefiting from exactly the same policies that got us into trouble or sits in pension pots that were subsidised by the State. Is it really fair that all of that money is untouchable?

What part of sharing the pain do we not get?

Fair point. Though what worries me is the inherent conflict of interests of allowing a group of fifty-something senior civil servants and their political cronies draft our fiscal policies. The same group of civil servants and who were allowed to offer their performance related bonuses as their pay cut. Who will soon walk away, like their ministers, from so called public service with 6 figure tax free lump sums and half their finishing salaries guaranteed. More like self service for these suits. Shame on them

Dannyboy83 · 12-05-2011 01:30AM

Sorry, I've not had a chance to read the thread in full, so apologies if I'm repeating here, but David McWilliams warned about this 2 months ago:
http://www.davidmcwilliams.ie/2011/03/09/keep-an-eye-on-your-savings-you-can-be-sure-the-state-is

With the news today of upwards of 80 credit unions in trouble, it probably won't be long before we start seeing pawn shops opening up again!!

Eddie Hobbs goes over the edge

Comments