Eddie Hobbs goes over the edge

ArtSmart

lunatic over reaction from Hobbs on the policy of using a % of private pension to fund the jobs initiative on Morning Ireland.

utter shiite stirring

lost all respect for the man.

he'll be reiterating on rte tonight. available on podcast later.

the groutch

never had any respect for him

HellFireClub

I'm no fan but he has a point, this is a big lurch in the direction of capital controls along the lines of what happened in Argentina when the government stopped people taking out their deposits, basically switched off the ATM machines...

Would you tolerate the government coming out in the morning and saying that they were taking 2% of whatever your current or savings account deposit value might be at close of business today???

I doubt it, so why would you tolerate the government taking 2% of your pension fund???

Riskymove

HellFireClub wrote: »

Would you tolerate the government coming out in the morning and saying that they were taking 2% of whatever your current or savings account deposit value might be at close of business today???

I doubt it, so why would you tolerate the government taking 2% of your pension fund???

I have heard suggestions that they are going to do this levy instead of getting rid of tax relief on pensions, I think the levy would be better than ending relief, though obviously people would rather they lost nothing

I also think that people pay that and more in relation to management fees on pension funds despite, in some cases, poor service

the Government has contributed to the funds in pensions through tax relief so its quite different than deposit savings really

RichardAnd

Levys on savings are of the same brew as property tax. Governments helping themselves to the weath of private citizens, typical socialist nonsense.

touts

HellFireClub wrote: »

I'm no fan but he has a point, this is a big lurch in the direction of capital controls along the lines of what happened in Argentina when the government stopped people taking out their deposits, basically switched off the ATM machines...

Would you tolerate the government coming out in the morning and saying that they were taking 2% of whatever your current or savings account deposit value might be at close of business today???

I doubt it, so why would you tolerate the government taking 2% of your pension fund???

With a tax on pension funds to be announced today and a tax on the paper value of your home on the way I'd say a tax on deposits is almost certain in the next couple of budgets. The country is broke and essential services like Alan Dukes' new Merc don't come cheap you know.

Time to explore the possibilities of moving money to a UK bank account.

Frank Black

Riskymove wrote: »

the Government has contributed to the funds in pensions through tax relief so its quite different than deposit savings really

The Goverenment haven't contributed to our pension funds - they just haven't fully taxed our contributions.
At the end of the day it's a private citizens money which is subject to the risks of the market - unlike public sevant pensions.

In principle, it's not much different than dipping into our savings accounts.

spank_inferno

RichardAnd wrote: »

Levys on savings are of the same brew as property tax. Governments helping themselves to the weath of private citizens, typical socialist nonsense.

Worse still...
Governments helping themselves to the wealth of private citizens to just hand over to other private citizens who are too important to have to pay for their mistakes
(except this time their tarting this theft up as a "jobs initiative")

YouBuyLocal

He must have some great connections in the media. How is he still getting air-time, he has been shown to be a spoofer. I remember him saying on RTE that borrowing is like "taking money from a time when have lots [in the "future"] and bringing it back to when you have only a little". Never mind that a 30-year mortgage means you pay twice for your house, in the interest & in the principle. He was actively and visibly blowing up the bubble with every bit of lung power he had, and RTE still put him on air!?! Arse-holes:/

ArtSmart

there's seems to be a misunderstanding of the concept of theft.

let me try to explain it a bit.


theft is an action against a person or legal equivalent (eg corporation)
resulting in a loss for the victim (person stolen from) and a gain for the thief (the person who takes the item(s)

theft is not the taking of an item(s) with the intention of enriching or otherwise benefiting the 'victim', at the expense of the thief's time and effort. (-an example of this is Tax. )

hope that helps, as it is a tricky concept.

COYW

black francis wrote: »

The Goverenment haven't contributed to our pension funds - they just haven't fully taxed our contributions.
At the end of the day it's a private citizens money which is subject to the risks of the market - unlike public sevant pensions.

In principle, it's not much different than dipping into our savings accounts.

There is very little difference for the private sector worker and I think that they will be dipping into our savings very soon.

invinciblePRSTV

RichardAnd wrote: »

Levys on savings are of the same brew as property tax. Governments helping themselves to the weath of private citizens, typical socialist nonsense.

Typical middle Ireland nonsense response.

Property tax is coming sooner or later, just like all those other "socialist" countries - UK or the USA:cool:

As for the levy, no doubt you have better solutions for the state to raise capital....

black francis wrote: »

The Goverenment haven't contributed to our pension funds - they just haven't fully taxed our contributions.

Tax reliefs are contributions to your pension funds, your doublespeak may make you feel the victim here but the Government has subsidised your pension, deal with it.

steve9859

EH is absolutely right. This isn't a levy that I pay out of my income. It is a raid , a theft, of my stuff. The government is crossing a line and I hope they get taken to court by my pension trustee.

I also like his suggestion that if this goes through private sector workers should stop pension payments and that we should adopt a public sector worker instead!!

Frank Black

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

Tax reliefs are contributions to your pension funds, your doublespeak may make you feel the victim here but the Government has subsidised your pension, deal with it.

Nope, they've encouraged people to contribute towards the cost of thier own pension by offering a reduced tax take on the contributed portion.

Once that money goes into a pension fund it is (or should be) your own money.

Now the goverenment have decided it's a good idea to raid the pension funds of private sectar workers - which to my mind in unequitable and possibly illegal.

Seems to me your the one engaged in doublespeak - deal with it.

Private pensions are in enough hassle as it is and they want to levy them further? Aren't we heading for an inverted population pyramid as it is? How short-sighted!

Tora Bora

ArtSmart wrote: »

there's seems to be a misunderstanding of the concept of theft.

let me try to explain it a bit.


theft is an action against a person or legal equivalent (eg corporation)
resulting in a loss for the victim (person stolen from) and a gain for the thief (the person who takes the item(s)

theft is not the taking of an item(s) with the intention of enriching or otherwise benefiting the 'victim', at the expense of the thief's time and effort. (-an example of this is Tax. )

hope that helps, as it is a tricky concept.

Let me get this straight.

Fingers Fingelton, can pay himself a zillion euro pension, run the company in to the ground, walk away and give the two fingers to the government and the tax payer.

Joe / Josephine Soap, saves away his / her few euros over a long time in order to build up an asset for retirement, so he /she might not be a total burden on the taxpayer.

In this dark economic hour for the country, the government is forced to bring in tough new unpalatable revenue raising measures to try to fund some job cration measures.

They look in the direction of Fingers, (and all his ilk .... Sheedy, FitzPatrick, Drumm, Goggin, etc, etc,) and they say .......... ohhhhhhhhhhhhhh, cant to anything drastic with these guys.

Then they look at Joe and Josephine, and say to themselves, "right ... lets raid their piggy banks.

Isn't it reassuring to know, that we have replaced a bunch of dickheads in the Dail, with a bunch of clowns.

I voted for the clowns.

Think the dickheads less bad somehow.

paddy0090

As for the levy, no doubt you have better solutions for the state to raise capital....

Capital for what....a daft PR stunt thats about as useful as tits on a boar. Who knows, maybe a new employment agency with designs on travelling to another dimension. It's gonna be pork and EH knows it.

I won't lose anything until I start a pension unless I can get a job in Public sector

EH has always been a bit over the edge, probably sees himself as the batman of personal finance.

invinciblePRSTV

black francis wrote: »

Nope, they've encouraged people to contribute towards the cost of thier own pension by offering a reduced tax take on the contributed portion.

Yes indeed, they're encouraging people to take out pension plans by knocking off a few % points of tax money, that's a public subsidy.

black francis wrote: »

Once that money goes into a pension fund it is (or should be) your own money.

Now the goverenment have decided it's a good idea to raid the pension funds of private sectar workers - which to my mind in unequitable and possibly illegal.

No it's not. Using your logic the DIRT we pay, the Insurance levy we pay and the credit card stamp duty we pay is unequitable and possibly illegal. It isn't. They're taxes on financial products, just as this one is.

black francis wrote: »

Seems to me your the one engaged in doublespeak - deal with it.

Fraid not, just shattering your illusion that you aren't being subsidised by the state with regards to your private pension - you are.

invinciblePRSTV

paddy0090 wrote: »

Capital for what....a daft PR stunt thats about as useful as tits on a boar. Who knows, maybe a new employment agency with designs on travelling to another dimension. It's gonna be pork and EH knows it.

Well like it or not, the state is still signed up to an austerity programme and is going to try and raise capital through any avenue possible. What i'm enjoying is the much whinging on here and on politics.ie from FG supporters and voters about this particular topic.

Things like this happen when everyone has to share the pain.

Frank Black

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

Yes indeed, they're encouraging people to take out pension plans by knocking off a few % points of tax money, that's a public subsidy..

Okaaay - by that logic every cent you make in salary is actually a public subsidy because it hasn't been taxed at 100%.

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

No it's not. Using your logic the DIRT we pay, the Insurance levy we pay and the credit card stamp duty we pay is unequitable and possibly illegal. It isn't. They're taxes on financial products, just as this one is. .

I can see you have trouble with relativly simple concepts so let me explain how it is inquitable.

None of those items you mention penalises private sector workers over those in public sector - the pension levy does - thus inequitable.

Riskymove

black francis wrote: »

The Goverenment haven't contributed to our pension funds - they just haven't fully taxed our contributions.

you reduced your tax bill and therefore saved money

this enabled people to put more away than they might have

btw many public servants have a pension fund so they too would be hit

Cookie_Monster

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

Yes indeed, they're encouraging people to take out pension plans by knocking off a few % points of tax money, that's a public subsidy.

it's not that simple as it's the state forgoing current revenue to prevent higher future costs also.
All this stupid levy is going to achieve is very small short term gains in revenue set against massive increase in pension costs down the road as more and more people contribute less tot heir pensions, with declining tax relief and this pension tax too it makes less and less sense to invest in a private pension so people will end up relying on a public one.

Riskymove

black francis wrote: »

Okaaay - by that logic every cent you make in salary is actually a public subsidy because it hasn't been taxed at 100%.

no it isn't (by that logic)

You are saying that pension contributions are taxed, they are not

tax relief is given for pension contributions, i.e. you reduce your PAYE by an amount based on what you are putting into the pension, therefore the Government is subsidising your contributions

it is about subsidies, not about tax

I can see you have trouble with relativly simple concepts so let me explain how it is inquitable.
None of those items you mention penalises private sector workers over those in public sector - the pension levy does - thus inequitable.

as I mentioned, many Public sector workers have a pension fund

in adddition they now pay an additional levy towards the pension and a levy owhen they are actually getting the pension

and both are a lot more than 1%

invinciblePRSTV

black francis wrote: »

Okaaay - by that logic every cent you make in salary is actually a public subsidy because it hasn't been taxed at 100%.

Not really. When the government offers tax relief to you to incentivise you taking out a private pension they are offering a financial inducement - a subsidy - to entice you to do so.

Why are you having such difficulty understanding such a basic premise?

black francis wrote: »

I can see you have trouble with relativly simple concepts so let me explain how it is inquitable.

Say what?

black francis wrote: »

None of those items you mention penalises private sector workers over those in public sector - the pension levy does - thus inequitable.

Not interested in a public v private sector debate, just pointing out the glaring hole in your argument that the state hasn't subsidised you to take out a pension plan, it has.

Ans as we're here and as mentioned by Riskymove, i would wager many public sector workers will also be affected by this policy.

Riskymove

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

All this stupid levy is going to achieve is very small shirt term gains in revenue set against massive increase in pension costs down the road as more and more people contribute less tot heir pensions, with declining tax relief and this pension tax too it makes less and less sense to invest in a private pension so people will end up relying on a public one.

see my earlier post about the levy supposedly being introduced instead of doing away with the tax relief...in those circumstances I think it makes sense

as said earlier people pay 1% or more in management fees without reducing their contributions

I think the tax relief is the key there, that is what will make people reduce contributions, not this levy

invinciblePRSTV

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

it's not that simple as it's the state forgoing current revenue to prevent higher future costs also.
All this stupid levy is going to achieve is very small shirt term gains in revenue set against massive increase in pension costs down the road as more and more people contribute less tot heir pensions, with declining tax relief and this pension tax too it makes less and less sense to invest in a private pension so people will end up relying on a public one.

Hard to disagree with this but the state is facing a pensions funding crisis down the line anyway.

Laminations

Everyone has to contribute....apart from those who, using tax reliefs, squirrelled away money. It's 0.5%, it won't reduce anyone to penury. The younger generation have been forced to take more of the pain than those who have accumulated wealth with the aid of government subsidies. AFAIK this will apply to the Fingletons of Ireland as well as the Joes and Josephines?

RichardAnd

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

Typical middle Ireland nonsense response.

Property tax is coming sooner or later, just like all those other "socialist" countries - UK or the USA:cool:

As for the levy, no doubt you have better solutions for the state to raise capital....

It's not nonsence. Simply because other countries enfore property does not change the fact that it is wrong.

And no, I don't have better solutions for the state to raise capital but I have a way of circumventing the problem; stop wasting billions each year on crap. If that happened, the issues goes away.

paddy0090

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

Well like it or not, the state is still signed up to an austerity programme and is going to try and raise capital through any avenue possible. What i'm enjoying is the much whinging on here and on politics.ie from FG supporters and voters about this particular topic.

Things like this happen when everyone has to share the pain.

Is this actually part of the austerity programme or is it the jobs budget? My understanding was the latter. In which case I think its BS

Yitzhak Rabin

How Eddie Hobbs is an economic commentator is beyond me. RTÉ should not be squandering our money getting him to spout his nonsense on TV.

This is what he was advising people to do in 2006. It is really breathtaking to watch. I feel sorry for the people who were taken in by this charlatan and his property companies.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=riFSbr-TgTg

He was on the radio this morning saying that its not economically possible for gold to enter into a bubble like property, and there hasn't been a lot of people buying gold in the last few years, and now is the right time to get in on gold. :rolleyes:

invinciblePRSTV

RichardAnd wrote: »

It's not nonsence. Simply because other countries enfore property does not change the fact that it is wrong.

Sure it is.....

RichardAnd wrote: »

And no, I don't have better solutions for the state to raise capital but I have a way of circumventing the problem; stop wasting billions each year on crap. If that happened, the issues goes away.

So you don't have solutions, you just don't want any policies implemented which affect you?

No doubt "the wasted billions each year on crap" are on things which don't materially effect you in anyway...

invinciblePRSTV

paddy0090 wrote: »

Is this actually part of the austerity programme or is it the jobs budget? My understanding was the latter. In which case I think its BS

Does it really matter which one it is? It's part of the jobs initiative afair but seeing as during the bubble years the Government of the day went on an orgy of offering tax incentives to all sorts of people and groups. These things can't last forever.

Riskymove

paddy0090 wrote: »

Is this actually part of the austerity programme or is it the jobs budget? My understanding was the latter. In which case I think its BS

at present anything that involves new government spending requires either borrowing or a replacement fund from somewhere else

in order to invest funds or reduce costs in order to create jobs the Govt has to make up money elsewhere, hence the levy

paddy0090

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

No doubt "the wasted billions each year on crap" are on things which don't materially effect you in anyway...

Does this somehow change the fact that it's pork we can't afford?

I think you're enjoying this too much to look at it objectively. Every penny they waste will have to come from somewhere else.

invinciblePRSTV

paddy0090 wrote: »

Does this somehow change the fact that it's pork we can't afford?

What's pork? are you referring to pork barrel spending? if so then the state has stopped pretty much all vanity projects since the crisis hit and what's left is spending on the essentials.

paddy0090 wrote: »

I think you're enjoying this too much to look at it objectively.

I'm enjoying the sheer hypocrisy and me feinism of FG supporters lamenting the introduction of this policy. They're quick to call for all sorts of draconian measures on other sectors of society, but when it comes to them shouldering their portion of the burden they cry foul.

paddy0090 wrote: »

Every penny they waste will have to come from somewhere else.

Same as it ever was.

paddy0090

Riskymove wrote: »

at present anything that involves new government spending requires either borrowing or a replacement fund from somewhere else

in order to invest funds or reduce costs in order to create jobs the Govt has to make up money elsewhere, hence the levy

If you believe it will create jobs and it will be done fairly, then you may have a point. I don't. I think it's an expensive PR stunt that will be used by cabinet members to throw cash at constituents and supporters......same sh*t, different day.

ArtSmart

Tora Bora wrote: »

Let me get this straight.

Fingers Fingelton, can pay himself a zillion euro pension, run the company in to the ground, walk away and give the two fingers to the government and the tax payer.

Joe / Josephine Soap, saves away his / her few euros over a long time in order to build up an asset for retirement, so he /she might not be a total burden on the taxpayer.

In this dark economic hour for the country, the government is forced to bring in tough new unpalatable revenue raising measures to try to fund some job cration measures.

They look in the direction of Fingers, (and all his ilk .... Sheedy, FitzPatrick, Drumm, Goggin, etc, etc,) and they say .......... ohhhhhhhhhhhhhh, cant to anything drastic with these guys.

Then they look at Joe and Josephine, and say to themselves, "right ... lets raid their piggy banks.

Isn't it reassuring to know, that we have replaced a bunch of dickheads in the Dail, with a bunch of clowns.

I voted for the clowns.

Think the dickheads less bad somehow.

em, I give a definition of theft and you er, give a preferred list of targets?

what, you think myself or any sane (non-related to Fingers) person would like to see Fingers head off into the sunset with suitcases full of dosh, like the bauld Drumm?

nope. I didnt say that. who is saying that? his mum, maybe.


of course, rather than take some dosh from joe and jo, the gov could always ask the Germans...:D

or better yet, we could do nuthin.

yeah. do nuthin. i like it. maybe things will, you know, just get better by themselves . and stuff.

ArtSmart

paddy0090 wrote: »

If you believe it will create jobs and it will be done fairly, then you may have a point. I don't. I think it's an expensive PR stunt that will be used by cabinet members to throw cash at constituents and supporters......same sh*t, different day.

well, I understand your cynicism with all the shenanigans over that last few years.


but, i'm gonna wait n see.

if the cats get fatter and no evidence of an input or return for society, they yep, i'll join you in condemnation

amen

well Public/Civil Servants also be paying this levy ?

Atilathehun

The money collected through this levy, will be largely wasted, as is all monies collected by government both central government and local authoroties.

The sickening part, is that this levy effects only the private sector if my understanding is correct.

It seems surreal, that a new tax on income can be introduced which only private sector will pay!!
I get a feeling that the honeymoon for Enda might end today.

paddy0090

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

What's pork? are you referring to pork barrel spending? if so then the state has stopped pretty much all vanity projects since the crisis hit and what's left is spending on the essentials.

Thats a very narrow definition of pork. I'd include FAS and a lot of the quangos.

A jobs budget is only essential if it's the last political promise you haven't broken, in which case it isn't essential. Can you not see this coming back to bite you in the ass somewhere else?

steve9859

amen wrote: »

well Public/Civil Servants also be paying this levy ?

No it's just private sector whose pensions aren't protected and are worth a fraction of what they were - and for many young people less than what has been paid in

Sand Wedge

amen wrote: »

well Public/Civil Servants also be paying this levy ?

No it is a tax on the pension fund of private pensions. So it will affect the annuities that private pension holders can buy when they retire.

The only way that public sector pensions can be influences is by either making them pay more towards there defined benefit pension or reduce the % of salary they get as a defined benefit.

invinciblePRSTV

paddy0090 wrote: »

Thats a very narrow definition of pork. I'd include FAS and a lot of the quangos.

I'm sure there is plenty of scope for reform of FAS and the "quangos", and this is something which appears to be a policy priority for the incumbent government. You appear to be presenting an argument that they should focus on this but leave the tax relief on pensions alone, the gravity of the situation indicates that doing both is the most logical option.

paddy0090 wrote: »

A jobs budget is only essential if it's the last political promise you haven't broken, in which case it isn't essential. Can you not see this coming back to bite you in the ass somewhere else?

i don't really know what you're on about here tbh. Are you saying there shouldn't be a jobs budget initiative?

Tora Bora

...................... a guy dressed like this will be rummaging through the savings of private sector workers, tonight.
Must crack open a beer, for the V Browne show tonight:cool:

Laminations

steve9859 wrote: »

No it's just private sector whose pensions aren't protected and are worth a fraction of what they were - and for many young people less than what has been paid in

Give it a break. It's nothing to do with public vs private 'sectors'. These are private pensions which public servants likely also hold, I know I do.

But then again I was also a FG supporter last election (and still am) though not a member and I'm in favour of this. That's directed at you invinciblePRSTV we are not all me feiners

Riskymove

amen wrote: »

well Public/Civil Servants also be paying this levy ?

if they have a pension fund then they will

EDIT

it seems lots of people are just ignoring this point but it remains the fact

if you have a pension fund then you will pay the levy regardless of whether you are private or public sector

Riskymove

The money collected through this levy, will be largely wasted, as is all monies collected by government both central government and local authoroties.

well if thats your position then your just against any measure regardless

you might as well be for the abolotion of all tax

It seems surreal, that a new tax on income can be introduced which only private sector will pay!!

as oppossed to the public service levy?

paddy0090

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

I'm sure there is plenty of scope for reform of FAS and the "quangos", and this is something which appears to be a policy priority for the incumbent government. You appear to be presenting an argument that they should focus on this but leave the tax relief on pensions alone, the gravity of the situation indicates that doing both is the most logical option.
i don't really know what you're on about here tbh. Are you saying there shouldn't be a jobs budget initiative?

Exactly! As I said elsewhere the jobs budget will be as effective as cool choices. It's an expensive PR stunt. Essential only to them because they've broken their two other big promises (bondholders/reduced interest rate).

But I'm sure there'll be

1. A PR contract
2. Some administrative quango/steering group/whatever for party honchos and a few capos from the unions
3. A pile of cash to put in places where they want it the most
4. Freework

I wouldn't have as much of a problem if it went to paying down the debt but that's mostly because I won't get hurt by it.

I'm sure reform is a priority for the government because the troika have said 'or else'. This is the one little tea party they're allowed to have.

_Kaiser_

amen wrote: »

well Public/Civil Servants also be paying this levy ?

steve9859 wrote: »

No it's just private sector whose pensions aren't protected and are worth a fraction of what they were - and for many young people less than what has been paid in

Now (as a former Private, then Public and again Private sector worker) correct me if my memory is faulty here but I distinctly remember paying a "pension levy" in my former job while the Private sector workers were untouched?

Seems like it's only balancing things out to me.. not that I think EITHER side should be cut anymore than they already have, especially as it's only to cover the gambling losses of an elite few "untouchables" in this increasingly farcical excuse for a country!

Get over the Public vs Private argument lads.. can ye really not see that what our Governments actually DO manage to do well is "divide and conquer" so they can continue to benefit at everyone's expense!

You want to be angry at someone - start with those who are responsible for the mess, not those left behind to clean it up.

Blured

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

Now (as a former Private, then Public and again Private sector worker) correct me if my memory is faulty here but I distinctly remember paying a "pension levy" in my former job while the Private sector workers were untouched?

Just on this - the Pension levy, while effectively a pay cut, was sold as the public sector having to contribute to their pension funds in some was as it is in the private sector.