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Burka ban

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  • #1412
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #1413
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #1414
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,464 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.
    Paragraphs aren't sentient, even here on A+A, so they can't infer anything.
    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.
    Your apology is accepted :p


  • #1415
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #1416
    Mark Hamill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,827 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    Are you saying you still dont understand the argument? Its not that the burka is designed to make women look how men want them to look, its designed so that men that have to look at them, because men, apparently, get uncontrollably aroused even just seeing a womans face and this is her fault and her problem.
    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    Which is why we are only calling for the most extreme, most sexist, most damaging aspect of this irrationality to be banned.
    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    No, its not, go and look up indoctrinations meaning (particularly in a religious context). Incidentally, "braless" doesn't offer any of those connotations to me.
    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    As I've explained already, indoctrination and coercion can happen to the extent where the victim will defend the attacker, its a form of battered persons syndrome. The lack of rational reasons and the internal contradiction in the purpose of the burka point to this.
    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    Rap videos, strip clubs and pornography are generally shallow, not sexist (there are female versions of all these) although thats not to say there aren't sexist purveyors. Still, none of these enforce a world view, under threat of hell, to dominate and suppress women, so they aren't really like the burka, no matter how deaf you are to it.
    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    Acting in everyone's favour. In the favour of the women being oppressed into the burka (whether she realises it or not). In the favour of her kids, her girls so they aren't oppressed and her boys so they might just question whether the oppression is right. In societies favour, so that this pervading meme is crushed.
    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    Firstly, I'm pretty anti theist, so I'm not exactly going to shy from suggestions to ban all religion. However, I'm pragmatic and realise the problems that would cause so I usually only advocate the banning of the extreme, while advocating education so that we dont need to ban the more mundane but still damaging.


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  • #1417
    Scotty #
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,782 ✭✭✭Scotty #


    I'm religious and support the ban
    Mark Hamill wrote: »
    Do you actually have any evidence for this claim that the reason why the french want rid of the burka is because seeing it bothers them? Or is is this just supposition to support the idea that the pro ban side are racist?
    It has been widely reported in the media that Sarkozy's whole motive for the ban was to win back the support of the National Front votes that he has lost. Also, French Interior Minister Claude Gueant (one of the main pushers for the ban) referred to the increasing numbers of Muslims in the country as “a problem” during a debate on the ban.

    Islam is the fastest growing religion in France (as it is in Ireland) and I think that's what the real motive is. It's not the burka, it's the idea of more burkas.


    Very good report on Frances veil wearing women here... (600kb PDF). Some very interesting statistics.


  • #1418
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #1419
    Mark Hamill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,827 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    Scotty # wrote: »
    It has been widely reported in the media that Sarkozy's whole motive for the ban was to win back the support of the National Front votes that he has lost.

    Media speculation =/= fact. It would be odd for Sarkozy to bring in such a controversial law to satisfy less than 30,000 people.
    Scotty # wrote: »
    Also, French Interior Minister Claude Gueant (one of the main pushers for the ban) referred to the increasing numbers of Muslims in the country as “a problem” during a debate on the ban.

    Quote mining? He said : ‘It’s true that the increase in the number of faithful in this religion [Islam], a certain number of behaviours, poses a problem.’ Its hard to say exact;y what he means, because most media sources quote just that line with no further quotes from him, but I think its clear that he was talking about specific actions from muslims, like the oppressive burka, being problematic in a country known for its secular culture.
    Scotty # wrote: »
    Islam is the fastest growing religion in France (as it is in Ireland) and I think that's what the real motive is. It's not the burka, it's the idea of more burkas.

    No, its the idea that burkas represents that bothers peoples. I dont think you understand what I meant when you replied to my post. I was asking for evidence that the anti burka side didn't like to see burkas simply because they foreign or muslim and the anti burka side didn't like that. I dont like seeing burkas, but thats because I see what they represent, an indoctrinated and repressed woman.
    Scotty # wrote: »
    Very good report on Frances veil wearing women here... (600kb PDF). Some very interesting statistics.

    Did you read 1.3 Reasons for wearing the Full-faced veil (pg 15)? Out of the 32 interviewed, you have "spiritual" reasons, someone who thought it would get her less attention from males during puberty, a convert who was hiding from her family, 10 who may only be doing out of rebellion to the government (only started after 2009), and some who were attracted to the aesthetic nature of the outfit (which defeats the point of the outfit). Not really rational and nothing that shows how its not sexist and therefore shouldn't be banned.


  • #1420
    Brinley Large Ketchup
    Posts: 81,310 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Brinley Large Ketchup


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    Mark Hamill wrote: »
    Did you read 1.3 Reasons for wearing the Full-faced veil (pg 15)? Out of the 32 interviewed, you have "spiritual" reasons, someone who thought it would get her less attention from males during puberty, a convert who was hiding from her family, 10 who may only be doing out of rebellion to the government (only started after 2009), and some who were attracted to the aesthetic nature of the outfit (which defeats the point of the outfit). Not really rational and nothing that shows how its not sexist and therefore shouldn't be banned.
    Mark, I'm struggling to think of any reasons you would consider "rational"


  • #1421
    Mark Hamill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,827 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    I did no such thing, I didn't dismiss anyone as anything, I explained why it applied and all you have done is continuously offer nothing but your assertion that this is not the case.
    Permabear wrote: »
    For you, a burqa-wearer must demonstrate her rationality before she can express a free and consenting desire to wear the burqa. But only by stopping wearing the burqa can she demonstrate her rationality.

    Welcome to the world of Catch-22.

    A burka wearer must demonstrate the rationality of the burka first, then demonstrate that its rational for her situation. Saying "I want to, because its my religion" does neither, and in the case of the sexist and oppressive garment that is the burka, its warrant enough for its banning.


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  • #1422
    Mark Hamill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,827 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    bluewolf wrote: »
    Mark, I'm struggling to think of any reasons you would consider "rational"

    Just anything that shows that there is a real problem that the burka actually deals with without being sexist and oppressive. The reason why its so hard for you to think of a rational reason to wear the burka is because there isn't one, hence it is only worn in the most extreme and domineering forms of islam.


  • #1423
    Brinley Large Ketchup
    Posts: 81,310 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Brinley Large Ketchup


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    Mark Hamill wrote: »
    Just anything that shows that there is a real problem that the burka actually deals with without being sexist and oppressive. The reason why its so hard for you to think of a rational reason to wear the burka is because there isn't one, hence it is only worn in the most extreme and domineering forms of islam.

    No, the reason I am finding it difficult is because you're throwing everything out the window


  • #1424
    AhSureTisGrand
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,327 ✭✭✭AhSureTisGrand


    I'm religious and support the ban
    Is there any rational reason for wearing Crocs? Really? Is there?


  • #1425
    Scotty #
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,782 ✭✭✭Scotty #


    I'm religious and support the ban
    Mark Hamill wrote: »
    Just anything that shows that there is a real problem that the burka actually deals with without being sexist and oppressive. The reason why its so hard for you to think of a rational reason to wear the burka is because there isn't one, hence it is only worn in the most extreme and domineering forms of islam.
    Do you think a woman wearing a skirt on a cold winters day is displaying irrational behaviour? And if your answer is yes, should we criminalise her for doing so?

    If your answer is no, please explain why.


  • #1426
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #1427
    Morbert
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,457 ✭✭✭Morbert


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    The claim that different people support the ban for different reasons is not the same as claiming "this is ultimately an argument about religious toleration and freedom of conscience". Do you agree that the ultimate issue is not religious tolerance, but rather women's rights?
    If someone proposes banning the automobile on the grounds that emissions pollute the atmosphere, he can't very well just keep insisting, when challenged, that CO2 is a pollutant, and that's justification enough. There are many other considerations too. Just as with the burqa, it's a multifaceted issue.

    It is a multifaceted issue, but the other facets are irrelevant.


  • #1428
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #1429
    pH
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,188 ✭✭✭pH


    bluewolf wrote: »
    No, the reason I am finding it difficult is because you're throwing everything out the window

    No, in societies where women's rights are well protected there appears to be no desire (from women themselves) to wear a bag on their heads.

    There must be "modest" women in Ireland, and yet I see no evidence that even the most modest dress this way, so I'm suspicious when you point to women in burkas and say "their choice".

    You may counter that it's cultural, however there seems to be a strong correlation with this "cultural" desire women have to wear a burqa and misogynist cultures where women are treated as second class citizens, stoned for being rape victims and murdered by their family for relationships.

    I have seen no evidence that women (who can be shown to be free to make the choice) actually do make the choice - can anyone point to anywhere in the world where women freely and spontaneously choose to dress in this way - free of pressure to do so?


  • #1430
    Brinley Large Ketchup
    Posts: 81,310 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Brinley Large Ketchup


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    pH wrote: »
    No, in societies where women's rights are well protected there appears to be no desire (from women themselves) to wear a bag on their heads.

    There must be "modest" women in Ireland, and yet I see no evidence that even the most modest dress this way, so I'm suspicious when you point to women in burqas and say "their choice".

    You may counter that it's cultural, however there seems to be a strong correlation with this "cultural" desire women have to wear a burqa and misogynist cultures where women are treated as second class citizens, stoned for being rape victims and murdered by their family for relationships.

    I have seen no evidence that women (who can be shown to be free to make the choice) actually do make the choice - can anyone point to anywhere in the world where women freely and spontaneously choose to dress in this way - free of pressure to do so?

    I've been trying for a while to find articles I had read on interviews with USA women who converted and started wearing it of their own free choice; there were british women as well. Unfortunately google results are getting drowned in the France issue. But there are examples.


  • #1431
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,464 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    bluewolf wrote: »
    I've been trying for a while to find articles I had read on interviews with USA women who converted and started wearing it of their own free choice;
    And there are a few Irish women who've done it too, but they've all been "converts".

    I think pH's point was that no women, who hasn't bought into the misogynistic religion to start with, has independently decided to walk around the place wrapped from head to toe in a black sack to avoid inflaming the uncontrollable desires of men. In fact, I'd hazard a guess that most people would find that pretty weird, were it not so common elsewhere.


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  • #1432
    Scotty #
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,782 ✭✭✭Scotty #


    I'm religious and support the ban
    pH wrote: »
    No, in societies where women's rights are well protected there appears to be no desire (from women themselves) to wear a bag on their heads.
    Islam women in France, UK, and the US have expressed a desire to wear the Burka. I'm sure there are other countries as well.
    pH wrote: »
    There must be "modest" women in Ireland, and yet I see no evidence that even the most modest dress this way, so I'm suspicious when you point to women in burkas and say "their choice".
    Why are you suspicious? Have you any evidence that they are lying? I've seen nuns in Ireland wearing their habit when the temp is 25C+. Do you think it is their choice to wear them or is it indoctrination too? Actually, do you believe Nuns really WANT to wear this garment at all?? Do you think they want to stick out from the crowd? Do you think they wear them because they are practical, a desire to serve God, their superiors, or are they are forced to... ??
    pH wrote: »
    ...stoned for being rape victims and murdered by their family for relationships.
    Nothing to do with the Burka ban in Europe and how we treat European citizens.
    pH wrote: »
    I have seen no evidence that women (who can be shown to be free to make the choice) actually do make the choice
    Report here. Read it. It might open your eyes.


  • #1433
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #1434
    Mark Hamill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,827 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    bluewolf wrote: »
    No, the reason I am finding it difficult is because you're throwing everything out the window

    I haven't thrown anything out the window, I have discounted the reasons offered because nothing so far can be shown to be rational. Every time someone has presented a reason for these women to wear the burka I have explained why those reasons aren't rational. For some reason some people seem to have a problem with that, as if they expect me not to point out irrationality, just to suit their empty emotive arguments.


  • #1435
    Scotty #
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,782 ✭✭✭Scotty #


    I'm religious and support the ban
    Mark Hamill wrote: »
    I haven't thrown anything out the window, I have discounted the reasons offered because nothing so far can be shown to be rational. Every time someone has presented a reason for these women to wear the burka I have explained why those reasons aren't rational. For some reason some people seem to have a problem with that, as if they expect me not to point out irrationality, just to suit their empty emotive arguments.
    As I asked before Mark, do you think an woman wearing a skirt on a cold day, when trousers/jeans would obviously be warmer, is displaying rational behaviour?

    Do you believe meditation is rational behaviour?

    Should all irrational behaviour be outlawed?


  • #1436
    Mark Hamill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,827 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    Scotty # wrote: »
    Do you think a woman wearing a skirt on a cold winters day is displaying irrational behaviour? And if your answer is yes, should we criminalise her for doing so?

    If your answer is no, please explain why.

    Seriously? Haven't you been paying attention? The fact that I need to explain to you that skirts aren't part of a cultural meme that accuses women of being the only ones at fault because of mens supposed uncontrollable urges and that its up to only the women themselves, to completely remove any individuality and shape or form from view in order to protect themselves from men just makes me question why I'm even bothering responding.

    Remember, burkas being irrational implies that they are indoctrinated, but its burkas being sexist and oppressive that mean I favour banning them. You cant throw out half the damn argument when trying to make analogies, its just makes it look like trolling.


  • #1437
    Mark Hamill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,827 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    I have explained why, not with assertions but with logic. The only women who wear the burka are the ones who follow that particular brand of extreme sexist and oppressive islam (see saudi arabia for examples of women not being allowed to drive, not being allowed out by themselves). No-one else in the entire western world out of any other religious or philosophical belief of non belief system sees the burka as reasonably response to the issue of over-sexualised women distracting men(and thats if they see the problem). Given this, and given the complete lack of a rational reason from the women who wear the burka for why they should, has lead to the logical conclusion that they have been indoctrinated into wearing it. This is warrant enough for banning, because unlike the cross or crocs, the burka is spectacularly sexist and oppressive to women.
    The idea that people saying they should be allowed do something simply because their religion says so, on an A&A forum no less, is ludicrous. Their religious beliefs mean jack-sh*t and if their beliefs are sexist, racist, oppressive or damaging then they dont get to act on them.
    Permabear wrote: »
    Hasidic Jews don't have to demonstrate that their style of dress is rational or face having it banned. Why should Islamic women be held to a different standard?

    Seriously, in any context, "prove that your attire is rational or we will ban it" is a pretty ridiculous standard. Have you ever been to a fashion show?

    Of course thats ridiculous, but then again, its a ridiculous strawman. No one is saying that everyone has to justify their dress sense, just the dress senses that are clearly extremely sexist and oppressive.


  • #1438
    Scotty #
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,782 ✭✭✭Scotty #


    I'm religious and support the ban
    robindch wrote: »
    And there are a few Irish women who've done it too, but they've all been "converts".

    I think pH's point was that no women, who hasn't bought into the misogynistic religion to start with, has independently decided to walk around the place wrapped from head to toe in a black sack to avoid inflaming the uncontrollable desires of men. In fact, I'd hazard a guess that most people would find that pretty weird, were it not so common elsewhere.
    Do you have any evidence to show that this is the reason women today wear the Burka? From what I have seen, the choice is made in keeping with tradition and spirituality.

    EDIT: I'm referring to Europeans BTW.


  • #1439
    Mark Hamill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,827 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    Firstly, drop the "mostly make legislators" bit, the idea that a man cant have input into what women do because he is a man is sexist. Look past who is arguing and look at what is being argued. Secondly stop leaving out bits of our arguments you dont like. If we believe that these women are indoctrinated, then we dont belief that they can make their own free choices.
    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    Lets try this a simpler way:
    Hypothetically, assuming that these women are indoctrinated and therefore they would be unable to make free choices in this matter, would it make sense to take their input into account?
    Hypothetically, assuming that there was no rational reason to wear the burka, would that point to it being indoctrinated into people?
    Do you yourself believe that the burka is sexist?
    Lastly, given that no non-muslim women in the western world (most muslim women too) dont wear the burka, regardless of their sense of modesty, does that not point to only irrational reasoning behind the burka?


  • #1440
    Mark Hamill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,827 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    Scotty # wrote: »
    As I asked before Mark, do you think an woman wearing a skirt on a cold day, when trousers/jeans would obviously be warmer, is displaying rational behaviour?

    Do you believe meditation is rational behaviour?

    Should all irrational behaviour be outlawed?

    Look at 1436 for my response to this.


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  • #1441
    Scotty #
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,782 ✭✭✭Scotty #


    I'm religious and support the ban
    Mark Hamill wrote: »
    Seriously? Haven't you been paying attention? The fact that I need to explain to you that skirts aren't part of a cultural meme that accuses women of being the only ones at fault because of mens supposed uncontrollable urges and that its up to only the women themselves, to completely remove any individuality and shape or form from view in order to protect themselves from men just makes me question why I'm even bothering responding.

    Remember, burkas being irrational implies that they are indoctrinated, but its burkas being sexist and oppressive that mean I favour banning them. You cant throw out half the damn argument when trying to make analogies, its just makes it look like trolling.

    Mark, do you believe Irish men (the father) should have control over how Irish women (the 16 year old daughter) dress when socialising?

    Daughter is heading out to the local disco wearing provocative clothing and father insists she cover up or stay at home... Is the fathers behaviour acceptable?


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